New Estes 3” Der Big Red Max coming soon!!

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My local hobby shop got some new Estes news today!
#9721 Der Big Red Max
This is the 3” upscale kit shown at the NARAM manufacturer’s forum earlier this year.
Pro Series II using E16-4 and F16-6 engines.
Image attached!!
Not much of a Pro Series if you ask me.
It has wimpy balsa for the fins, paper card stock centering rings, rubber band shock cord. and a plastic chute. O and did I mention stickers instead of water slides.
Personally only parts I would keep would be tubes and the nose cone. Everything else would be upgraded. If you can't fab your own,
Vanderburn Rocketry has an upgrade kit for plywood centering rings and fins.
Then get a nylon chute and real shock cord along with StickerShock decals and you would have a nice kit.
 
The PSII builder kits were really good rockets. And if Estes can produce motors that would lift similar rockets again I’d say they’d probably make similar kits again. But let’s not let nostalgia color things, when the big PSII kits came out they didn’t sell in near the numbers that Estes parent company projected - that’s why we, rocketry hobby enthusiasts (as important to them as we are, we’re not Estes core market), spent several years buying out their stock at radically discounted prices. The reason you and I ended up with multiple Leviathans, Partizons and Ventrises (Ventri?) in our stashes is because Hobbico had a big pile of unsold kits so selling those kits at pennies on the dollar helped them buy some time before the bankruptcy. Of all the PSII kits I wish I’d grabbed a Nike Smoke before the supply ran out - but not enough to pay a premium for one now, there’re just too many other similar rockets out there for similar money that interest me. For me, I’d rather Estes be Estes and cook up stuff like the coming in 2021upsized Mars Snooper, Super Big Bertha, Protostar and the rereleased C5 motor rather than try to compete with LOC, Madcow, etc...
Cosmodrome Rocketry has a nice Nike Smoke rocket kit for a very reasonable price.
 
The PSII builder kits were really good rockets. And if Estes can produce motors that would lift similar rockets again I’d say they’d probably make similar kits again. But let’s not let nostalgia color things, when the big PSII kits came out they didn’t sell in near the numbers that Estes parent company projected - that’s why we, rocketry hobby enthusiasts (as important to them as we are, we’re not Estes core market), spent several years buying out their stock at radically discounted prices. The reason you and I ended up with multiple Leviathans, Partizons and Ventrises (Ventri?) in our stashes is because Hobbico had a big pile of unsold kits so selling those kits at pennies on the dollar helped them buy some time before the bankruptcy. Of all the PSII kits I wish I’d grabbed a Nike Smoke before the supply ran out - but not enough to pay a premium for one now, there’re just too many other similar rockets out there for similar money that interest me. For me, I’d rather Estes be Estes and cook up stuff like the coming in 2021upsized Mars Snooper, Super Big Bertha, Protostar and the rereleased C5 motor rather than try to compete with LOC, Madcow, etc...
Vanderburn Rocketry have a lot of PS2 clones that are exact copies of the old Estes kits. They use genuine Estes parts and upgraded parts where it counts.
Very all inclusive and very reasonable prices. I have 5 of his kits.
Very high quality.
I could not recommend them higher!
 
Now that I have my Estes 3” PSII DBRM in hand here’s a few thoughts. If you’re looking for the return of the mid-2010s PSII kits this is not the rocket for you - there are plenty of other vendors who will happily sell you a MPR/HPR 2-4” kit, including Toby Vanderbeek with an improved version of the Mega Der Red Max - this is not one of those rockets. The Big Max is a very good LPR/MPR kit, not perfect by any stretch, but very good. The 3 piece fins wouldn’t be my first choice but the balsa and laser cutting of my fin set is good quality and well done. The body tube is heavier than regular Estes Euclid sourced paper tubes with cleanly cut fin slots - I haven’t checked the fit of the fins but if it’s typical of Estes TTW slots they’re on the snug size - as preferred since opening up the slots is preferable to filling oversized ones. The nose cone is a lovely rendition of the PNC-60AH cone, nicely molded though it does have the infamous PNC-3000A “Big Daddy” style shoulder that some folks attribute the BD’s tendency for lawn darting to. The accessory pack has the well made Estes 29mm threaded motor retainer, plenty of clay nose weight, the ubiquitous Estes rubber shock cord and trifold mount and big tube style launch lugs.

Now the stuff that really seems to be causing consternation - the plastic chute and self-stick decals. Chute first - it’s a heavy, almost vinyl-like plastic with the classic skull and bones printing. Looks good but I won’t deny I’d much prefer it was nylon rather than plastic - I won’t be using mine in cold weather for sure and will probably swap it out for a homemade chute kludged up from a cheapo cloth novelty pirate flag. It appears perfectly serviceable and definitely heavier duty than a standard Estes chute but a nylon one would’ve been a great addition. The decals don’t quite reach the almost vinyl level of the Quest Advanced Rocketry kits’ self-stick decals but do appear better than Estes standard self-sticks - I’ll call them a serviceable near miss. Some enthusiast/advanced builders will certainly be unsatisfied and will probably swap them out for an inclusive set of cut vinyl from Stickershock. I’ll be using mine for my first kit and a variation from Stickershock if I end up buying a second one. Overall I give the new Big Max a solid “B” - not perfect but a solid kit, a decent value at its $49.99 list price and a great one at the discounted $29.99 price from online vendors.

Now here’s my thoughts about why this kit is what it is. The biggest elephant in the room would be the fins - why pieced together balsa fins? I think there’s two primary reasons: first, weight - in order to make it flyable on an adapted Estes E12, second is cost - with the cost of balsa rising this is probably the only way the fins can be done and hit Estes needed price point. A third and minor reason could be packaging - stuff has to fit in a box a certain size based on retailer shelf space so the fin sheets size may have been limited by those considerations. Now the decals - self-stick decals aren’t my first choice but these are pretty good for what they are. And for a builder with minimal experience who picks this kit because it’s really cool looking self-sticks are a better choice than water slides. Finally, this kit was never going to mark the return of the older PSII builder kits, ever. All the current PSII kits must be flyable on both Estes 29mm motors and adapted 24mm motors so anything heavier isn’t happening.
 
Any stickershock users out there that have the original decals they might be willing to let go of? :) - I would like to get a spare set :)
 
Any stickershock users out there that have the original decals they might be willing to let go of? :) - I would like to get a spare set :)
Sure, I've got a set. Shoot me your mailing address via DM and I'll drop them in the mail.

James
 
I bought a couple extra rocket just to get more stickers......I'll buy a set (or 2 or 3) if someone has some to sell.
 
I sent an email to customer service to buy the set of decals, this is the reply I received:

Decals Unavailable.
 
Contact info

Sandra D. Cox
Customer Service
Estes Industries, LLC
1295 H Street
Penrose, CO 81240
Phone: (719)372-6565 x 216
Fax: (719)372-3419
 
That's who said they are not available:

Estes does not offer decals for any rocket except when offered on our website. Currently we only have the decals for the #1969/#2157 Saturn V decals available. At times I come across some decals that I can offer for sale however, at this time I do not have any decals for the #9721 Der Big Red Max available. Estes hasn't had a designated parts department in over 12 years, not all decals become available.


Thank you,


Sandra D. Cox
Customer Service
Estes Industries, LLC
1295 H Street
Penrose, CO 81240

Phone: (719)372-6565 x 216
Fax: (719)372-3419
 
Not much of a Pro Series if you ask me.
It has wimpy balsa for the fins, paper card stock centering rings, rubber band shock cord. and a plastic chute. O and did I mention stickers instead of water slides.
Personally only parts I would keep would be tubes and the nose cone. Everything else would be upgraded. If you can't fab your own,
Vanderburn Rocketry has an upgrade kit for plywood centering rings and fins.
Then get a nylon chute and real shock cord along with StickerShock decals and you would have a nice kit.


FYI, Large waterslide decals are useless. I always will prefer vinyl in kits over 3 inches.
 
FYI, Large waterslide decals are useless. I always will prefer vinyl in kits over 3 inches.
Well, in all honesty the self-adhesive decals in the DBRM kit aren’t quite vinyl - better than the usual Estes self-stick decals and probably appropriate for this kit if it’s being built by someone without a lot of experience with large water slides - but not the same quality as Stickershock stuff. But I’m on the same page when it comes to really big water slides, I usually end up cutting them into smaller sections.
 
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Now that I have my Estes 3” PSII DBRM in hand here’s a few thoughts. If you’re looking for the return of the mid-2010s PSII kits this is not the rocket for you - there are plenty of other vendors who will happily sell you a MPR/HPR 2-4” kit, including Toby Vanderbeek with an improved version of the Mega Der Red Max - this is not one of those rockets. The Big Max is a very good LPR/MPR kit, not perfect by any stretch, but very good. The 3 piece fins wouldn’t be my first choice but the balsa and laser cutting of my fin set is good quality and well done. The body tube is heavier than regular Estes Euclid sourced paper tubes with cleanly cut fin slots - I haven’t checked the fit of the fins but if it’s typical of Estes TTW slots they’re on the snug size - as preferred since opening up the slots is preferable to filling oversized ones. The nose cone is a lovely rendition of the PNC-60AH cone, nicely molded though it does have the infamous PNC-3000A “Big Daddy” style shoulder that some folks attribute the BD’s tendency for lawn darting to. The accessory pack has the well made Estes 29mm threaded motor retainer, plenty of clay nose weight, the ubiquitous Estes rubber shock cord and trifold mount and big tube style launch lugs.

Now the stuff that really seems to be causing consternation - the plastic chute and self-stick decals. Chute first - it’s a heavy, almost vinyl-like plastic with the classic skull and bones printing. Looks good but I won’t deny I’d much prefer it was nylon rather than plastic - I won’t be using mine in cold weather for sure and will probably swap it out for a homemade chute kludged up from a cheapo cloth novelty pirate flag. It appears perfectly serviceable and definitely heavier duty than a standard Estes chute but a nylon one would’ve been a great addition. The decals don’t quite reach the almost vinyl level of the Quest Advanced Rocketry kits’ self-stick decals but do appear better than Estes standard self-sticks - I’ll call them a serviceable near miss. Some enthusiast/advanced builders will certainly be unsatisfied and will probably swap them out for an inclusive set of cut vinyl from Stickershock. I’ll be using mine for my first kit and a variation from Stickershock if I end up buying a second one. Overall I give the new Big Max a solid “B” - not perfect but a solid kit, a decent value at its $49.99 list price and a great one at the discounted $29.99 price from online vendors.

Now here’s my thoughts about why this kit is what it is. The biggest elephant in the room would be the fins - why pieced together balsa fins? I think there’s two primary reasons: first, weight - in order to make it flyable on an adapted Estes E12, second is cost - with the cost of balsa rising this is probably the only way the fins can be done and hit Estes needed price point. A third and minor reason could be packaging - stuff has to fit in a box a certain size based on retailer shelf space so the fin sheets size may have been limited by those considerations. Now the decals - self-stick decals aren’t my first choice but these are pretty good for what they are. And for a builder with minimal experience who picks this kit because it’s really cool looking self-sticks are a better choice than water slides. Finally, this kit was never going to mark the return of the older PSII builder kits, ever. All the current PSII kits must be flyable on both Estes 29mm motors and adapted 24mm motors so anything heavier isn’t happening.

Curious if you ever got this to fly on E12-4 engines (I was assuming that this would eliminate the need for the nose weight)?

Looks like it would have great performance on 3x C5-3 engines but F12-4 would be a little simpler...
 
Curious if you ever got this to fly on E12-4 engines (I was assuming that this would eliminate the need for the nose weight)?

Looks like it would have great performance on 3x C5-3 engines but F12-4 would be a little simpler...

You have a definitely optimistic perception of my work ethic - it’s still in the box 🤦‍♂️

Though I did weigh all the parts (including the clay) and simmed it using Thrustcurve, it comes off the rail a little slow but on a calm day 250-260 feet should be attainable on an adapted Estes E12-4. That’s assuming no replacement plywood parts, built with just what’s in the box with a reasonable amount of paint and glue. That’s with the really heavy for what it is vinyl chute - one of my thin mil nylon chutes weighs roughly an ounce, the Big Max chute is pushing 2oz! I really can’t wait to send it up on one of Aerotech’s Enerjet revival F52s - that looks like the perfect motor for a consistent 1000 foot flight.

I’m still going to build my 1st one with the original parts and my 2nd one (that just showed up courtesy of the now over sale on Amazon) is going to get beefed up a bit as soon as I can get to our library’s maker space and cut some new fins and centering rings - I could do them by hand but using their laser cutter is free so why not? Still not sure what livery it’s going to wear so it may get flown in just it’s gloss white undercoat.

I still really like the kit though I do understand why some people were disappointed in it - I wonder if it was conceived under the old Hobbico regime at Estes and was too far along to make any changes after the Langfords and Bill Stine took over?
 
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You'll need to find a local rocketry vendor. The hazmat fee will be applied if they're shipped legally.
 
Where can you get the engines without the $35 hazmat fee from estes?
The simplest path is to use Aerotech 24mm single use motors with the Estes #9753 24/29 adapter. Aerotech F44W, F32T and on calm days the E30T will all work and are non-hazmat motors. If you don’t want to use an adapter there’s also Aerotech 29mm motors that will send a DBRM just fine - F67W, F52C, and the G74W - all non-hazmat.
 
Stock build, Q-Jet E26-4 is great. Even in some decent wind. The new E35 and F41 Q-Jets should also work well. Adapted down E20W SU motors can be added to the list along with the E18/E28/F24/F39 in the 24/40 Hobbyline case (all non-hazmat reloads).

Lots of good options out there.
 
My local hobby shop got some new Estes news today!
#9721 Der Big Red Max
This is the 3” upscale kit shown at the NARAM manufacturer’s forum earlier this year.
Pro Series II using E16-4 and F16-6 engines.
Image attached!!

So how does it fly on the F 16-6?
 
Hobby lobby, any on-site vendor
Hobby Lobby hasn't had 29mm Estes BP motors since 2019. They no longer carry anything that uses them and the motors were clearanced out of HL stores in the summer of 2019. I stopped at several on my road trip from the Seattle area to Muncie (going to NARAM-61) and picked up some as I could. That supply is now pretty close to exhausted, unfortunately.
 
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