# New Estes 3” Der Big Red Max coming soon!!

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#### neil_w

##### Marginally Stable
TRF Supporter
I generally agree that Estes will not likely resume making kits that require composite motors, at least until they come up with a way to make money selling composite motors. From everything I've heard over the years, what @Scott_650 says is exactly true: the PSII kits didn't sell well, which is why they were all clearanced out and discontinued. Remember that "sell well" for Estes is quite a different thing from other companies; they operate at much higher volumes than everyone else.

So I too would expect to see more kits that are designed to fly on 29mm E and F motors. It sure would be great, though, if they could come up with a higher-thrust BP motor, to handle heavier rockets. I don't know if that is in the cards at some point.

And speaking of the Es and Fs, lately I am frustrated their lack of retail availability. In my neck of the woods, there's no place I've found them, since Hobby Lobby stopped carrying them and my LHS (which really doesn't have a great selection of rocket stuff to begin with) doesn't carry any of the hazmat motors. I don't use enough of them to justify a hazmat order. This may not be an issue for HPR fliers, who already have to deal with hazmat on other purchases (sometimes, at least), or those who have a good vendor at their club launches. But for the LPR hobbyist who wants to move up in class a bit, it's an obstacle.

#### Scott_650

##### Well-Known Member
I generally agree that Estes will not likely resume making kits that require composite motors, at least until they come up with a way to make money selling composite motors. From everything I've heard over the years, what @Scott_650 says is exactly true: the PSII kits didn't sell well, which is why they were all clearanced out and discontinued. Remember that "sell well" for Estes is quite a different thing from other companies; they operate at much higher volumes than everyone else.

So I too would expect to see more kits that are designed to fly on 29mm E and F motors. It sure would be great, though, if they could come up with a higher-thrust BP motor, to handle heavier rockets. I don't know if that is in the cards at some point.

And speaking of the Es and Fs, lately I am frustrated their lack of retail availability. In my neck of the woods, there's no place I've found them, since Hobby Lobby stopped carrying them and my LHS (which really doesn't have a great selection of rocket stuff to begin with) doesn't carry any of the hazmat motors. I don't use enough of them to justify a hazmat order. This may not be an issue for HPR fliers, who already have to deal with hazmat on other purchases (sometimes, at least), or those who have a good vendor at their club launches. But for the LPR hobbyist who wants to move up in class a bit, it's an obstacle.
Estes shutdown production of the big 24mm and 29mm motors to overhaul the motor making machine - with the Skylab Saturn V and the DBRM using 29s my guess is they’ll have them available very soon. A fair number of those SVs are going to sell to general hobbyists who are going to want motors to fly their new rockets. Maybe the next time Estes and HL negotiate their agreement HL will pick up the PSII kits and motors again. HL’s not the best rocket source but they’re convenient when you just need a pack of motors to launch some model rockets and having the 29s on their shelf was great.

Hobbylinc still has NOS 29s available on their website - the Es are non hazmat unlike the Fs - and some NOS big 24s too.

When Ellis Langford and Bill Stine did their interview on The Rocketry Show podcast they very briefly and vaguely alluded to something about more powerful motors but in retrospect they could’ve been talking about the at the time future release of the new 18mm C5s. Everything I’ve read has stated that making big grains of BP that can be used reliably after being shipped and stored isn’t practical - the 29s may be as powerful as a reliable BP motor can ever be but who knows? Maybe the folks at Estes are cooking up something new?

Frankly this is looking like a “golden age“ for the rocketry hobby whether Estes starts building 4“ and up diameter rockets or not!

#### kelltym88

##### Well-Known Member
Wait... a 3" Mars Snooper.... yes please!! The PSII kits were great. I am fortunate enough to own a 4" Red Max and the Nike Smoke as well as a Scion. All great flyers.

#### neil_w

##### Marginally Stable
TRF Supporter
Hobbylinc still has NOS 29s available on their website - the Es are non hazmat unlike the Fs - and some NOS big 24s too.
I'm quite confused by this... some sellers require hazmat for all Es (including E12s), while Hobbylinc doesn't. Why the difference?

Frankly this is looking like a “golden age“ for the rocketry hobby whether Estes starts building 4“ and up diameter rockets or not!
Agreed.

#### Scott_650

##### Well-Known Member
Wait... a 3" Mars Snooper.... yes please!! The PSII kits were great. I am fortunate enough to own a 4" Red Max and the Nike Smoke as well as a Scion. All great flyers.
I don’t think it’s going to be that big - you can see it to Bill Stine’s right in the Estes vNARAM video - looks to be in the 2” diameter range so bigger than the Semroc repro by about 10%. Regardless it should be a really fun kit.

I doubt it’ll be a PSII rocket - probably a 24mm motor mount.

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#### Scott_650

##### Well-Known Member
I'm quite confused by this... some sellers require hazmat for all Es (including E12s), while Hobbylinc doesn't. Why the difference?

Agreed.
It all depends on their shipping agreement with the USPS - evidently if the total hazard weight for the class “toy rocket propellant” is under a certain amount the item can be shipped ground only via the Post Office. That’s how Hobbylinc says the big E motors would be shipped - but not the Fs. If the vendor uses any other mode or carrier there’s going to be a hazmat fee - if it could potentially go on an airplane (even if it doesn’t actually) the hazmat fee will be charged to the shipper, who naturally passes it on to the customer.

#### RobertH3

TRF Supporter
+1 on the price point on APCP vs BP motors. More important than the kits I think. This is a big issue for younger hobbyists and even me. I love MP but spend way too much $$on them every launch. I've started a cutback program with more interesting 18 and 24mm kits. Would love to see E motors with good thrust curves AND reliability. The larger BP motors don't have enough initial kick to get a large bird off the pad and the number of CATOS I've seen in 24mm E and 29mm E and F motors is off-putting. I know it's due to temperature cycling and incorrect storage by dealers but still... even Quest D16's are 1/3 more than C6-5's. Would like to see a reliable and inexpensive E motor with an upscaled C5-3 type curve. You could do lots of fun stuff with that. Cheers / Robert #### Scott_650 ##### Well-Known Member +1 on the price point on APCP vs BP motors. More important than the kits I think. This is a big issue for younger hobbyists and even me. I love MP but spend way too much$$ on them every launch.
I've started a cutback program with more interesting 18 and 24mm kits. Would love to see E motors with good thrust curves AND reliability. The larger BP motors don't have enough initial kick to get a large bird off the pad and the number of CATOS I've seen in 24mm E and 29mm E and F motors is off-putting. I know it's due to temperature cycling and incorrect storage by dealers but still... even Quest D16's are 1/3 more than C6-5's. Would like to see a reliable and inexpensive E motor with an upscaled C5-3 type curve. You could do lots of fun stuff with that.

Cheers / Robert
The Estes E12 is pretty close to an upscaled C5, it does take roughly a tenth of a second longer to hit peak thrust and burns for about that amount longer according to what’s on ThrustCurve, but with over 2.5x the total average N that’s about what you’d expect. I’ve been very lucky, evidently, since I’ve never in dozens and dozens of launches had an Estes 24/29mm motor fail - not even an E9 - and have had a lot of solid performance out of the E12. The limitation of the E12 is it’s weight - much of the extra performance is soaked up by its near 60 grams of motor weight and/or the additional rocket weight, either in the nose cone or by the length, needed to insure good stability. What would be interesting to know is if the propellant formula used in the C5 can be used reliably in larger motors which is, of course, just the motor you would like to see

#### RobertH3

##### No need to buy stands after a launch day!
TRF Supporter
I "think" the C5 has a partial core propellant - slight indent in the BP so it goes from core - end burning. I don't think Estes reformulates much. A partially cored E12 with more initial thrust, and good storage and handling would be great. Sadly, the E12 isn't quite enough for the Interceptor E - I saw one launch on an E12 a while back and the wind pushed it horizontal after it left the pad. Ugh. The weight is an issue too, but could be offset by a short pulse of higher thrust. The F15 is more serious - very heavy and a very slow start. This is a great motor for a 29mm min diameter rocket like the Aspire, mine hit 3100' on one and was goin' fast at the end. Fast enough to buckle the tube : )

You couldn't pay me to fly my MDRM on an E16 or F15 though.

On the boom-boom, I have seen 5 E12's CATO at my club, and a couple F15's too. Two packages came from an un-named big box hobby store.

Cheers / Robert

#### Scott_650

##### Well-Known Member
You couldn't pay me to fly my MDRM on an E16 or F15 though
Absolutely correct - the Estes BP 29mm motors are not the right choice for something like the MDRM. Maybe in your backyard with absolute calm conditions off a rail or 6’ rod just to watch it pop up and down but no club RSO would ever let you do it. Which circles us back to the reason the current PSII rockets are lighter weight 1.6” - 3”, balsa finned designs and not big 3” - 4” brutes with plywood rings and fin

#### kelltym88

##### Well-Known Member
You couldn't pay me to fly my MDRM on an E16 or F15 though
That's why I built mine with a 38mm MMT

#### Scott231

##### Well-Known Member
If you must have have the correct nose cone, there are plenty of companies willing to make them for you (think BMS or Python). I prefer doing upscales and either get the nose cone that is "close enough" or just use what is available...and the 3" short nose cone from most retailers is good for lots of 3" upscales like my 3" Photon Probe and Hi-Flier (in the fix-the crumbled body tube stage )
.

#### AfterBurners

##### Well-Known Member
Estes doesn’t sell a motor that can safely fly the MDRM. Unless they have a mad scientist developing some secret sauce high power BP formula it’s highly unlikely we’ll ever see big, heavy MPR/HPR kits from Estes again - the current PSII rockets that can fly on adapted 24mm BP motors looks like their plan for bigger rockets. Besides, why should they try to compete with all the other MPR/HPR companies in an area that’s not in their DNA or skill sets? Are the folks who regularly buy LOC, Madcow, Public Missiles, Sirius, Aerotech, Wildman, AMW, Performance Hobbies, etc rockets really going to buy enough big Estes rockets to make it a sustainable product for Estes?
Yeah but other vendors do

#### AfterBurners

##### Well-Known Member
Which, to Estes, is totally irrelevant.
Just like ESTES is irrelevant to me.

#### Gunstar

##### Well-Known Member
Why E and F engines? An Executioner is bigger and will take a D12-3

#### BF Rockets

##### Well-Known Member
It is a new nosecone mold, and has nothing to do with the Doorknob kit. I'm attaching an image capture from the video of the NARAM Virtual Manufacturer's Forum from earlier this year, where Bill Stine holds up the prototype, and you can easily tell it is the correct nose cone.
The nosecone looks a little off to me. Hopefully it's just an artifact of the video grab.

#### Ez2cDave

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
So I too would expect to see more kits that are designed to fly on 29mm E and F motors. It sure would be great, though, if they could come up with a higher-thrust BP motor, to handle heavier rockets. I don't know if that is in the cards at some point.
That would be FANTASTIC, if we could have BP "CORE-BURNER" motors, once again . . . PLEASE, make it so, Estes ! ! !

Dave F.

#### Scott_650

##### Well-Known Member
That would be FANTASTIC, if we could have BP "CORE-BURNER" motors, once again . . . PLEASE, make it so, Estes ! ! !

Dave F.
All we can do is keep asking, and then wait, and wait, and wait...

#### neil_w

##### Marginally Stable
TRF Supporter
To be fair, they've never (I don't think) produced a high-thrust 29mm motor. So that would be a new development, probably would take a while if they even would want to take on such a project.

#### Scott_650

##### Well-Known Member
To be fair, they've never (I don't think) produced a high-thrust 29mm motor. So that would be a new development, probably would take a while if they even would want to take on such a project.
24mm is fine, I’m not picky - but I think the core burners were 18mm motors, right?

#### neil_w

##### Marginally Stable
TRF Supporter
24mm is fine, I’m not picky - but I think the core burners were 18mm motors, right?
For heavier rockets you'd want to have at least an F available, right? That wouldn't fit in any existing 24mm case.

I mean, a 24mm high-thrust E would be great, but I feel like the hole we'd like them to fill is in the larger range.

But you know, I'm fine with single-use Aerotechs, so it really doesn't matter much to me. The main thing such motors would do is open Estes up to producing heavier rockets. Oh, and I suppose having a higher-thrust booster for two-stagers would be pretty darn useful.

#### Ez2cDave

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
For heavier rockets you'd want to have at least an F available, right? That wouldn't fit in any existing 24mm case.

I mean, a 24mm high-thrust E would be great, but I feel like the hole we'd like them to fill is in the larger range.

But you know, I'm fine with single-use Aerotechs, so it really doesn't matter much to me. The main thing such motors would do is open Estes up to producing heavier rockets. Oh, and I suppose having a higher-thrust booster for two-stagers would be pretty darn useful.
Estes has 29mm BP motors, E16 & F15 . . . FSI motors were 27mm ( E60 - 95mm long & F100 - 150mm long ) . . . The Estes motors are 114mm long, not enough for an "F100" ( "F70", maybe ), but more than long enough for an "E60" !

Dave F.

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#### dpower

##### Well-Known Member
Estes brought a 24mm E15 to the market many years ago, and most of them went Kaboom, and it was decertified.

#### RobertH3

##### No need to buy stands after a launch day!
TRF Supporter
The B14's and B8's were discontinued for the same reason.

#### dpower

##### Well-Known Member
The B14's and B8's were discontinued for the same reason.
B14 & B8 were discontinued, but did not have any reliability issues that I’m aware of. I’ve flown many B8s, never had a failure.

#### Initiator001

##### Well-Known Member
The B14's and B8's were discontinued for the same reason.
The B14 and B8 motors required additional manufacturing processes which increased their production time. This resulted in higher costs to the hobbyist for a 'B' motor compared to a B4 or B6 motor. Sales of the motors were low resulting in their discontinuation.

#### Ron Humphrey

##### Member
My local hobby shop got some new Estes news today!
#9721 Der Big Red Max
This is the 3” upscale kit shown at the NARAM manufacturer’s forum earlier this year.
Pro Series II using E16-4 and F16-6 engines.
Image attached!!
Cant wait for this. Just started back into model rockets since the late 70's. and the Red Max wa salways a favorite.

#### Art Upton

##### Well-Known Member
Estes has 29mm BP motors, E16 & F15 . . . FSI motors were 27mm ( E60 - 95mm long & F100 - 150mm long ) . . . The Estes motors are 114mm long, not enough for an "F100" ( "F70", maybe ), but more than long enough for an "E60" !

Dave F.
The FSI F100 was really only an F50ish when tested. the F100 was marketing only and they got away with it.
An Estes F45 cored version of F15 would be a winner.