NERRF-4 2008 is Official -- June 20, 21, 22 at Pine Island, NY

[boris katan]

You could actually wire a buzzer onto the relay that only sounds when the relay is closed, IE a rocket is launched. It would be irrelivent when they pushed the button just a small buzz. But if he stopped launching and hear a buzzing sound they know the relay is welded closed.

Ben

Good idea. That would have detected the fused relay.

I completed post 236 above, had not realized that I had posted it without completing it yesterday.

 

[bobbyb]

Bill

CMASS loads HOT pads... the only thing preventing the LCO from launching a rocket in a fliers face is the LCO hitting the right button [ or more specifically not hitting the wrong button. ] By your own description you indicated to me that "YOU have hit the wrong button" then proudly announced that no one has ever been injured in over ???? launches.....

With ZERO safety at the pad your playing rocket roulette.... counting on the LCO NOT to hit the pad button your on OR that heaven forbid a button might fail...

BOTH NAR and TRA insurance would be void since you have no interlock / safety between the flyer and the LCO hitting the button... [IE: When the LCO pushes the button{s] to fire pad 1 only all the other pads are 1 button away from firing while people are loading......

As for the misfire at METRA

If you know what kind of pads / controls METRA has then you know what caused the misfire and that it is being addressed.

When your Shunting 4 high current igniters for a DRAG race, from time to time a wire / connection may fail. Problem is you may or may not know it until you arm the pads for the next rack... thus the reason for arming the pads from the remote box with fliers clear of the rockets.

Even though we had a box malfunction. the pads being SAFED at the remote box allowed all of the fliers to clear the pads... BEFORE they were armed... thus a malfunction gives the pad manager a start but know one is near a HOT PAD while it can fire...

 

[billspad]

Bill

CMASS loads HOT pads... the only thing preventing the LCO from launching a rocket in a fliers face is the LCO hitting the right button [ or more specifically not hitting the wrong button. ] By your own description you indicated to me that "YOU have hit the wrong button" then proudly announced that no one has ever been injured in over ???? launches.....

The CMASS launch controller requires holding two momentary switches closed to fire any rocket. Yes, I have selected the wrong pad and no we have never injured anyone in what must be 10,000 launches. In fact, using our controller I've never even come close to firing a pad that someone was working on. I came real close once using someone else's controller that had a rotary switch. That's why we don't have one.

With ZERO safety at the pad your playing rocket roulette.... counting on the LCO NOT to hit the pad button your on OR that heaven forbid a button might fail...

BOTH NAR and TRA insurance would be void since you have no interlock / safety between the flyer and the LCO hitting the button... [IE: When the LCO pushes the button{s] to fire pad 1 only all the other pads are 1 button away from firing while people are loading......

I disagree and since the launch controller that the NAR uses for TARC works exactly the same way as the CMASS controller I'd say that other people would also disagree. Again, there are two momentary switches (besides the key switch) that have to be held down to fire any pad.

As for the misfire at METRA

If you know what kind of pads / controls METRA has then you know what caused the misfire and that it is being addressed.

When your Shunting 4 high current igniters for a DRAG race, from time to time a wire / connection may fail. Problem is you may or may not know it until you arm the pads for the next rack... thus the reason for arming the pads from the remote box with fliers clear of the rockets.

Even though we had a box malfunction. the pads being SAFED at the remote box allowed all of the fliers to clear the pads... BEFORE they were armed... thus a malfunction gives the pad manager a start but know one is near a HOT PAD while it can fire...

I do not know the inner workings of the METRA system and I'm glad you're addressing the problem.

I have no interest in debating whose system is better. If you recall, for NERRF 3, I stated my opinion and when you rejected it we did it your way. It's your field and on your field we play by your rules. That's the way it should be. You also know that I declined to participate in NERRF 4 for other reasons that were important to me. My club members agreed with my decision. I was disappointed to hear that a couple of METRA members were bad mouthing me. You don't have to agree with me but you should at least respect my right to do what I think is best for my club and myself.

 

[boris katan]

CMASS does have individual safe / arm switches at each pad that has a relay and a local battery. These include all HP and mid-power pads.

An interrupt switch at each LP pad would be a good idea.

An examination of electronic launch system failure modes and eliminating as many of these as possible is a vital interest to all rocketry clubs.

 

[JDcluster]

It could have been allot worse if safety switch wasn't there.
You cannot simply just disconnect the battery with our launch system, doing so will make things worse.



A METRA club member had a really bad day about 12 years ago in Orangeburg, SC at LDRS 14 ( I think 14 they had 2) He was hooking up the leads to a fellow club members Bruiser for a drag race; only to have the motor come up the pressure when both clips were attached ( another faulty relay).


Why is everything being compared to CMASS stuff, does someone have a complex or something?
It has been mentioned that CMASS has only 3-4 HP pads so, how can you compare LP to HP
gear?



JD

 

[billspad]

Why is everything being compared to CMASS stuff, does someone have a complex or something?
It has been mentioned that CMASS has only 3-4 HP pads so, how can you compare LP to HP
gear?
JD

I don't believe that comparison was being made. We are not a high power club because we don't have a large high power field. Our equipment was designed for what we do. Our small launches have 11 pads that can handle anything up to a G. For our large launches we add 3 high power pads for flights up to J. Any one who has been to our launches will tell you that they're fun. We do our best to keep the lines short and generally don't have to go begging for volunteers. I'm proud of our launches and all the people that make them happen. I have no desire to impose our system or equipment on anyone. We were asked to help at NERRF 3 and did our best to fit in. Call it what you will, NERRF is a high power launch and the model rocket stuff is just incidental.

 

[Hospital_Rocket]

Call it what you will, NERRF is a high power launch and the model rocket stuff is just incidental.

If that is the impression that the Northeast community has developed over the past four years, then the planning committee / sponsoring clubs have some work to do. I know the guys are listening and every attempt will be made to correct that situation as it is not, nor has it ever been, our intention.

A

 

[billspad]

If that is the impression that the Northeast community has developed over the past four years, then the planning committee / sponsoring clubs have some work to do. I know the guys are listening and every attempt will be made to correct that situation as it is not, nor has it ever been, our intention.

A

I know that's not the intention but that's how it's perceived. I had one guy at our launch on Saturday (small field, model rocket only) tell me he got more flights in before launch than the whole weekend at NERRF. I heard the same thing after the first two NERRF's and that's the reason I decided we might be able to do some good at NERRF 3. It didn't happen.

 

[Hospital_Rocket]

Looks like we need to roll up our sleeves. I think the biggest challenge in a continuously available LPR range is two fold.

1. Under no circumstances can the rockets be aimed to fire over the crowd - just common sense there.
2. How do you keep the LPR rockets from falling downrange on the flyers that are loading the HPR pads. I know that when I am at the big pads I tend to focus on what is going on there and blank out a bit of the world around me. I'm not sure that the concept of needing to keep my eyes peeled for falling LPR rockets while loading my MPR/HPR is the best idea either.

Of course a more detailed understanding is required. This one is solvable, we just need to think it through and the community's input is essential to this process.

 

[jflis]

Looks like we need to roll up our sleeves. I think the biggest challenge in a continuously available LPR range is two fold.

1. Under no circumstances can the rockets be aimed to fire over the crowd - just common sense there.
2. How do you keep the LPR rockets from falling downrange on the flyers that are loading the HPR pads. I know that when I am at the big pads I tend to focus on what is going on there and blank out a bit of the world around me. I'm not sure that the concept of needing to keep my eyes peeled for falling LPR rockets while loading my MPR/HPR is the best idea either.

Of course a more detailed understanding is required. This one is solvable, we just need to think it through and the community's input is essential to this process.

It seems to me that the same problem described in #2 above exists when the left side is loading while the right side is launching.

Truly I see little difference to the folks loading HPR birds, say, on the left while the right LPR *OR* the left LPR racks are launching. Heck, HPR birds are launched on the right while the left is loading.

It seems to me that the event, the planners, the fliers and spectators are used to exactly that.

just my 2 cents
jim

 

[Hospital_Rocket]

Yeah I can see that. Our original intent was to have enough right to left distance so that it would not be a problem with one range flying while the other was loading.

Might be a case of forest and trees

 

[dlappert]

I'd really like to see NERRF move to another field forcing a new perspective and process. I think we'd find that even then, nothing will be perfect, only more of the same.... I hear these sort of things after every launch. Oh well.

Still think NERRF 4 ran just fine... and if 5 runs as well we'd be fortunate indeed.

 

[ben]

Yeah I can see that. Our original intent was to have enough right to left distance so that it would not be a problem with one range flying while the other was loading.

Might be a case of forest and trees

Well, since too me (remember I have never been to METRA but a trip is being planned) there seems to be plenty of room. I think you can have the required 20-25 feet between the LPR pads. Why not completely split things in half? If you have 20 LPR pads, do 10 on the right and 10 on the left. Make a chart of what rods are at what pads and people can get into a line for that pad (the line should be small)

Then just make a seperate lane for the HPR pads so you can get those projects through.

Ben

 

[GlennW]

Ben, there are 10 pads on the left and 10 on the right for LPR at NERRF and that is the way it's been each year. I have to slightly disagree with the poster who said NERRF is a high power launch. Certainly that's a big focus, and though I am strictly a low power guy, it's one of the reasons I love coming up there, to see the big stuff fly. But Jim Flis is also a big presence there with a lot of cool low power flights and so are many other low power flyers. Just look at the flight count and check the percentage of low power motors relative to the mid and high. That's more than "incidental" no matter how you slice it.

The key is just to figure out how to improve the flow so that there are not long waits at the pads. It seems the powers that be are really aware of this and will hopefully have some good ideas to solve the issue for the future.

Glenn

 

[dlappert]

Glenn W....

AMEN

 

[bobbyb]

Glenn

Thank You... you are VERY correct LPR is well represented at NERRF.

YES the NERRF planners ask for feedback and each year try to improve...

As for the range... the gear is a compilation of pads / controls from the participating clubs...

We set up into a right and left range and have a completely separate away cell area with its OWN away cell RSO. [ something we learned from NERRF 1.. away cell projects eat up RSO time... ]

LPR this year was 12 pads on the left and 10 on the right... The most we have ever set up for the "incidental" LPR flights we expected. [ we learned from NERRF 1,2,3 that the "incidental" LPR flights were a bottle neck and wanted to improve ]

This year we also set up Hybrids on a separate field to the left of the main left range pads. Addressing an issue we had at NERRF 3 involving hybrid launches moving a bit slower than we wanted. I understand this was a major league success in getting hybrids loaded and in the air efficiently...
[something we learned from NERRF 3 that was put into practice.]

BTW My compliments to ALL of the fliers who attended NERRF and volunteered for range duty to make NERRF happen. On Sunday when it was done... I
I drove the parking area and it was like we were NEVER there..... very clean.... Nice job......

Thanks......

 

[dgreenapple]

Just to preface, I'm not being defensive and I believe you can see from the replies above that 4 members of the Planning Committee are listening and thinking about ways to make NERRF a more complete experience.

But I've heard it said here that NERRF is "perceived" as a HP launch, and perception is unfortunately reality in peoples' minds. But let's consider the DATA, since that represents reality even better:

At NERRF3, 42% of the flights were A - E and 66% of the flights were A - G (i.e., Low Power). I don't have the specific data yet for NERRF4, but I believe we did even better at getting off more Low Power flights.

Hmmm, if more than 65% of NERRF flights are Low Power, would you call it a High Power launch?

Perhaps, a 40 lb, 12 foot tall "M" "Sparky" is more spectacular than a 2 ounce B6-4, so people remember the "M-Sparky" and call it a High Power Launch. But the fact is, far more low power rockets flew both of the last two years.

Net, net, we have to find a way to get more A - D flights off the pads. But it is true and supported by the data that far more Low Power flights went off than High Power.

 

[billspad]

But I've heard it said here that NERRF is "perceived" as a HP launch, and perception is unfortunately reality in peoples' minds. But let's consider the DATA, since that represents reality even better:

At NERRF3, 42% of the flights were A - E and 66% of the flights were A - G (i.e., Low Power). I don't have the specific data yet for NERRF4, but I believe we did even better at getting off more Low Power flights.

Hmmm, if more than 65% of NERRF flights are Low Power, would you call it a High Power launch?

Perhaps, a 40 lb, 12 foot tall "M" "Sparky" is more spectacular than a 2 ounce B6-4, so people remember the "M-Sparky" and call it a High Power Launch. But the fact is, far more low power rockets flew both of the last two years.

Net, net, we have to find a way to get more A - D flights off the pads. But it is true and supported by the data that far more Low Power flights went off than High Power.

I believe the perception is caused by the amount of time it takes a low power flight to get into the air rather than the number of low power flights. It takes more time to safety check, prep and even load a high power rocket on to the pad. People expect that and it's not something you want to take a short cut on. Speaking for my club where we fly more lower power than high, the lower power fliers are used to quick turn around. Getting a half a dozen flights in while still helping with the range duties is not uncommon.

 

[dgreenapple]

You're right! And we have to figure out how to do that safely at NERRF...

 

[dlappert]

I'm thinking aloud here.

Since NERRF is neither a local club LPR or local club HPR launch, but instead a regional rocket festival, shouldn't we be concentrating on how to make it the most fun NE event and not worry so much about what flies more, or whether HPR or LPR. In reality it is neither and never has been.

So how about some ideas from you folks (NERRF participants) that would make NERRF 5 unique, challenging and the most fun launch to date.

 

[Ryan S..]

I believe the perception is caused by the amount of time it takes a low power flight to get into the air rather than the number of low power flights. It takes more time to safety check, prep and even load a high power rocket on to the pad. People expect that and it's not something you want to take a short cut on. Speaking for my club where we fly more lower power than high, the lower power fliers are used to quick turn around. Getting a half a dozen flights in while still helping with the range duties is not uncommon.

Bill,

Isn't that the nature of the beast? With the meshing of high powered and low powered rocketry doesn't the flight number of both go down due to the time spent on the other? Yes more LP rockets could be launched if no time was spent on high powered and visa versa, but the good part of the "Festival" is seeing the entire spectrum of the hobby. The CMASS launches are done with extreme efficiency and speed. This isn't a bad thing, in fact I remember the first time I went to a launch that wasn't CMASS (for those of you that don't know CMASS is a huge part of the reason I am into rocketry today) and I was surprised at how few rockets were being flown. The CMASS club definitely has experience and a reliable system that allows them to fly rockets like it was going out of style. I dont mean to add to the arguement, just make the point that after having experience at both launches I can see where each group of fliers sees the other taking up launch time. Hopefully they dont get mad at each other but rather enjoy the high points each brings to the hobby and the launch.

The METRA launch system......................................................

 

[Hospital_Rocket]

So how about some ideas from you folks (NERRF participants) that would make NERRF 5 unique, challenging and the most fun launch to date.

Hybrids only?

 

[skycopp]

Hybrids only?

even better.... EX only

 

[billspad]

Isn't that the nature of the beast? With the meshing of high powered and low powered rocketry doesn't the flight number of both go down due to the time spent on the other?

I don't think that it has to. Meshing is the key.

 

[boris katan]

I'm thinking aloud here.

Since NERRF is neither a local club LPR or local club HPR launch, but instead a regional rocket festival, shouldn't we be concentrating on how to make it the most fun NE event and not worry so much about what flies more, or whether HPR or LPR. In reality it is neither and never has been.

So how about some ideas from you folks (NERRF participants) that would make NERRF 5 unique, challenging and the most fun launch to date.

Drag races are a lot of fun, and something that a large event like NERRF can do in a big way, as seen with the Gizmos.

Could have time windows
> 10am minimum diameter drag race
> noon odd roc drag race
> 2pm race all on the same motor (check Wildman's rocket )

Maybe speed or altitude competitions. (and the winner in the launch a Weasel to 1000mph and shred it, for two years running....irate:

 

[boris katan]

Fun ideas for NERRF 5 continued:

> Competition to see who lights the most engines in a cluster.

> Cluster drag race.

Avatar is a 26x cluster of D11-P's. Up part went well, down part will get better next time...

TRF thread at https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=42692&page=5

 

[Hospital_Rocket]

I've wanted for two years now to get the world renowned CATO Viper Fest to be an event. The stumbling block is the whole range monopoly while setting up. The folks that are not participating are, understandably, a bit miffed while we pull it together. The Gizmo event was an example. I am sure it can be overcame and I think pre-registering will be the key so we can assign pads at a specific time.

I really like the special events as they bring a real community character to the day.

 

[dlappert]

Exactly.... NERRF can get better by doing more interesting stuff....

While operational improvements are worked out, lets just get our arms around some fun things as mentioned above and let's get them organized. Some for the small folk, some for the LPR folk and some for the HPR folk.

Al, can you keep track?

 

[sandmantoy]

I flew hi power only but like to see the kids having at it and some of the cool things they flew. I guess I am never prepared enough to get more in the air. I didn't figure my time right also volunteering and then going to prep rockets. Maybe I will get it right next year

Not complaining, everyone worked hard to get and keep the show moving safely but I think there could have been more rockets launched as there where a lot of people waiting to get to a pad. Maybe we where at capacity for what could have been launched. Hard to say what could make it better, not many crowds that size get along as well as rocket folks do. I had a great time at NERRF 4

I think there has to be a rig just for something like the viper fest, set up for a mass of rockets to be launched. That way the field does not have to be shut down. I think it took a while to recover from the Gizmo's being set up and launched if we did at all that day. There was quite a crowd waiting to get there rockets on the pad when it was done and more lining up. I think a rocket festival needs one, I think there would have been more Gizmo's in the air too

 

[dgreenapple]

Competitions can be a big hit. Duration, Altitude, both.... Gliders, Motor Size, Speed, etc., etc.

Look at NARAM. They're flying on a much smaller field with a lower waver. And if you fly in a competition the flier's fee can be quite high -- a multiple of NERRF's. All that and they have over 300 pre-registered.

The good thing is that competitions can run "un-noticed", while other flight operations are running, rather than bring things to a halt, as a large simultaneous launch (drag race) will.

Downside? Someone's gotta do all the work to plan it, publicize it in advance to draw in participation, and manage the operations before, during and after the launch.

Do we have a volunteer?

And to that point...

The key is just to figure out how to improve the flow so that there are not long waits at the pads. It seems the powers that be are aware of this and will hopefully have some good ideas to solve the issue for the future.

I'm taking the opportunity to make an important point: the "Powers that be..." want YOU. Please volunteer so YOU can be the "Powers that Be". NERRF needs volunteers!