Need help - Estes Saturn V Nose Weight - Estes E9

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ToneDeafJunior

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I probably need to have this question in Low Power Rocketry, but the motors are Estes E9 24mm... Anyhoo, I’m building my first Saturn V from an Estes kit and I see people talking about adding weight to the nosecone but I do not see how much or what kind. Would someone be able to provide a best guestimate and what kind of weight they’d use please? Thank you so much in advance. Many hours have been spent and I'm only half way through. I do love it.
 

Steven

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Glad you're enjoying the build. Unfortunately, I can't provide an answer for you as I don't have this particular version from Estes myself. I'm assuming the instructions don't give any info on this (I don't know why). On the other hand, it took Estes this long to fix the under powered rocket issue that had plagued it since it's conception.
 
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There are two pats of clay included in the kit. You are supposed to tamp those in the top of the Apollo capsule prior to cementing the base. And the E9 is NOT a recommended motor. It does not have enough thrust to bring it to a stable speed off the launch rod. Use an E12 instead. I had a friend who used an E9 and his Saturn V did a U turn and slammed headfirst into a basketball court. "If all else fails, read the instructions".
 

K'Tesh

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Please note: I'm very tired, and in a lot of pain right now (I hit a patch of ice tonight and went down while cycling). The rum is helping (a little).

Seems to me the easy way of figuring it would be to measure the weight difference between the motors (the smaller motor less the weight of the clay), and put that up front.

Again, this hasn't been carefully thought through (and the spell checker is having a hell of a time keeping up with me).
 
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Please note: I'm very tired, and in a lot of pain right now (I hit a patch of ice tonight and went down while cycling). The rum is helping (a little).

Seems to me the easy way of figuring it would be to measure the weight difference between the motors (the smaller motor less the weight of the clay), and put that up front.

Again, this hasn't been carefully thought through (and the spell checker is having a hell of a time keeping up with me).

K'Tesh,

Hoping you have a quick recovery. I think Estes already factored in the two motors weight, since it recommends both the D12 and the E12, and included two pats of clay in the kit. I believe that amounts to .5 oz. Am I missing something?
 

K'Tesh

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K'Tesh,

Hoping you have a quick recovery. I think Estes already factored in the two motors weight, since it recommends both the D12 and the E12, and included two pats of clay in the kit. I believe that amounts to .5 oz. Am I missing something?


Thanks! The Advil seems to be working now...

If Estes recommends an E12, I'd stick with that. The stories that were posted prior to my response seem to bear that out. Again, I didn't do any research into the subject prior to my previous post.
 

LithosphereRocketry

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Honestly I would just pick up some Aerotech E15s for a couple reasons-
More average thrust
Less nose weight needed
They're just generally amazing

Sent from my LGL44VL using Tapatalk
 

Charles_McG

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The Estes Saturn V doesn’t have an excess of stability. I think that’s why you see people talking about adding nose weight above and beyond what’s provided in the kit (more clay, sinkers, etc). They watch it fly and think ‘hmm, more nose weight’. At the same time, 12N is at the low end for this kit, and nose weight doesn’t help that.

E15s, or even E30s, get the model off the rod faster, even with a little additional weight.


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Agreed, composites will get the rocket up to stable speed faster. But remember, the OP is asking about adding weight for an E9​. A recipe for disaster!
 

Nytrunner

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I have. But with the Saturn, I don't know the weights and various sizes of the tubes and transitions.


Dry fit the stack -> weigh stack -> balance stack.

Use those numbers to override the mass and CG and you'll be pretty dang close. You can always weigh/balance it again when it's all put together.
 

dpower

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Last time I saw an Estes Saturn V fly on a D12-3, it wasn't pretty. Not enough thrust, and too long of a delay., caused it to hit the ground before ejection. And that was the previous lighter release (the latest release recommends only an E30). I wouldn't fly it on anything less than an E15/E18.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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Probably the saddest feeling in the world is watching a beautifully executed kit that took hours and hours of meticulous work crashing into the ground due to low thrust. Don’t crash your Saturn V! Use enough thrust! Here’s a link to an Aerotech E20. https://www.siriusrocketry.biz/ishop/aerotech-e20-4w-24mm-single-use-motor-2-pack-555.html

You can get those motors from lots of different places. Use something like that to get it off the pad flying straight.
 
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y,tj
Last time I saw an Estes Saturn V fly on a D12-3, it wasn't pretty. Not enough thrust, and too long of a delay., caused it to hit the ground before ejection. And that was the previous lighter release (the latest release recommends only an E30). I wouldn't fly it on anything less than an E15/E18.

Hi guys,

I understand your preference for use of composites in launching the heavier rockets. But...
I'm looking at the instructions of the latest release, and it says "Recommended Estes engines: D12-3 (first flight), E12-4."

Only on the box is there any mention of an E30. Also, some of the more inexperienced flyers are using only black powder motors, these are their only options.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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y,tj

Hi guys,

I understand your preference for use of composites in launching the heavier rockets. But...
I'm looking at the instructions of the latest release, and it says "Recommended Estes engines: D12-3 (first flight), E12-4."

Only on the box is there any mention of an E30. Also, some of the more inexperienced flyers are using only black powder motors, these are their only options.

The biggest risk to the rocket is crashing due to low thrust. It’s a pretty big rocket for a D12. What is the final built weight?
 

JumpJet

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If you use an E9 motor, the Saturn V will most likely be on the ground before the ejection charge goes off. The Estes E12-4 does fly the Saturn V pretty well. The D12-3 works but it will only go maybe 150 feet up. The 24mm composite motors work very nicely.

John Boren
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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Listed estimated weight of 12 oz.

Often people exceed the estimated build weight, especially if they are using extra glue, epoxy, or multiple layers of paint. And the OP was asking about nose weight too, so that might push it over 12 ounces. But even a 12 oz rocket with a 4” diameter is too big and heavy for a D12, and I don’t think even an E12 will get it off the rod safely. Those may be the recommended motors, but I personally would not use them. I’d highly recommend weighing the final built rocket, and then picking a motor for that weight, even if the motor is not in the recommended list. Saturn V kits are not cheap, and they take a lot of work to build, so it would be a shame to crash it.
 
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Often people exceed the estimated build weight, especially if they are using extra glue, epoxy, or multiple layers of paint. And the OP was asking about nose weight too, so that might push it over 12 ounces. But even a 12 oz rocket with a 4” diameter is too big and heavy for a D12, and I don’t think even an E12 will get it off the rod safely. Those may be the recommended motors, but I personally would not use them. I’d highly recommend weighing the final built rocket, and then picking a motor for that weight, even if the motor is not in the recommended list. Saturn V kits are not cheap, and they take a lot of work to build, so it would be a shame to crash it.

Agreed, many builders here modify the motor mount for a 29mm engine. But they are the more experienced builders using composite engines. They also know how to check for stability, add incremental nose weight, and adjust CG to CP, and run sims. Less experienced builders don't know how to do this (yet).
 

MaxQ

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I would second the E-15 recommendation. Flies great on it. Also, the F-44 works good as well.

Here's my youtube flight on the F-44.
Sorry, I can't for the life of me figure out how to embed the video on here.



I'LL HELP YA.........

[video=youtube;bomT1jxRWII]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bomT1jxRWII[/video]
 

ToneDeafJunior

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Oh Phill. That is such a shame. I'm spending so much build time on this rocket. I've built many over the last year or so, but this one is the most detailed. Especially with the vac wraps. I wish RocketryForum allowed me to upload pictures. I have a good looking Titan IV I finished and flew that I'd like to upload a picture to you. I tap the button to upload picture, choose upload from computer, pick the photo, hit upload file and nothing happens. The popup box just sits there. Very frustrating.
A few members mentioned inexperienced flyers, that's definately me. I think I'm still going to use the E12-4 on the rocket and hope for the best. I doubt this will be one of the rockets I fly over and over again. Max-Q's launch of his Saturn on the F-44 was beautiful. I have a couple of F-44 but have not found a large enough field where I live to use them. With the weight of the Saturn, and yes, mine will weigh much more than 12 oz with the extra glue (yellow and E6000) and multiple coats of paint and just inexperience. I have the free version of OpenRocket but do not have the skills yet to put the Saturn in to that program. I'm working on a Proton K now too and I just don't have the skills in OpenRocket to ad the 6 boosters (even though they are not boosters, but I'll call them that), tunnels, nozzels, clear fins, etc.
I do plan on weighing my Saturn when it's finished and finding were the CG is. I don't really know how to find the CP.
 

samb

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... I wish RocketryForum allowed me to upload pictures. I have a good looking Titan IV I finished and flew that I'd like to upload a picture to you. I tap the button to upload picture, choose upload from computer, pick the photo, hit upload file and nothing happens. The popup box just sits there. Very frustrating...

Try it this way:

Click on "Go Advanced"
Scroll down and click "Manage attachments"
Proceed through the add files/choose file/open/upload/check thumbnail/insert inline/done dialogue.
 
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Oh Phill. That is such a shame. I'm spending so much build time on this rocket. I've built many over the last year or so, but this one is the most detailed. Especially with the vac wraps. I wish RocketryForum allowed me to upload pictures. I have a good looking Titan IV I finished and flew that I'd like to upload a picture to you. I tap the button to upload picture, choose upload from computer, pick the photo, hit upload file and nothing happens. The popup box just sits there. Very frustrating.
A few members mentioned inexperienced flyers, that's definately me. I think I'm still going to use the E12-4 on the rocket and hope for the best. I doubt this will be one of the rockets I fly over and over again. Max-Q's launch of his Saturn on the F-44 was beautiful. I have a couple of F-44 but have not found a large enough field where I live to use them. With the weight of the Saturn, and yes, mine will weigh much more than 12 oz with the extra glue (yellow and E6000) and multiple coats of paint and just inexperience. I have the free version of OpenRocket but do not have the skills yet to put the Saturn in to that program. I'm working on a Proton K now too and I just don't have the skills in OpenRocket to ad the 6 boosters (even though they are not boosters, but I'll call them that), tunnels, nozzels, clear fins, etc.
I do plan on weighing my Saturn when it's finished and finding were the CG is. I don't really know how to find the CP.

ToneDeaf,
Here's what I do to upload pictures:From reply box, click Go Advanced. In the new box, click the attachments button (looks like a paper clip), In new pop up, click add files, browse, look for your file on your computer and pick it, upload, wait for upload to finish. Your picture should appear in the "Home" box and the "Attachments" box. Pick insert online, then done. Would love to see your pictures.
I checked Rocsim, the CP of the older 30th anniv. Sat. V is 24.4" from the nose, and a mass of 14 oz. The new reissue should be in the same ballpark, maybe a little heavier.
Please don't get frustrated! We've all been there. Keep doing what you are doing, you're doing great. I like that you're taking on the challenge of a Saturn V and Proton K. That is how we learn and grow, by trying to do the difficult, not the easiest. Good luck!

P.S. Look for an apogee of about 450' or so from the E12.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, if you look at post #20 above, you'll see the recommendations of JumpJet. That is John Boren, the chief (and only) designer at Estes. It would be wise to follow his recommendations. And if you haven't already seen it, check your Proton K thread, there is a link for that book you were looking for. Cheers.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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Oh Phill. That is such a shame. I'm spending so much build time on this rocket. I've built many over the last year or so, but this one is the most detailed. Especially with the vac wraps. I wish RocketryForum allowed me to upload pictures. I have a good looking Titan IV I finished and flew that I'd like to upload a picture to you. I tap the button to upload picture, choose upload from computer, pick the photo, hit upload file and nothing happens. The popup box just sits there. Very frustrating.
A few members mentioned inexperienced flyers, that's definately me. I think I'm still going to use the E12-4 on the rocket and hope for the best. I doubt this will be one of the rockets I fly over and over again. Max-Q's launch of his Saturn on the F-44 was beautiful. I have a couple of F-44 but have not found a large enough field where I live to use them. With the weight of the Saturn, and yes, mine will weigh much more than 12 oz with the extra glue (yellow and E6000) and multiple coats of paint and just inexperience. I have the free version of OpenRocket but do not have the skills yet to put the Saturn in to that program. I'm working on a Proton K now too and I just don't have the skills in OpenRocket to ad the 6 boosters (even though they are not boosters, but I'll call them that), tunnels, nozzels, clear fins, etc.
I do plan on weighing my Saturn when it's finished and finding were the CG is. I don't really know how to find the CP.

If yours will weigh more than 12 oz, then I think you should really look at a higher thrusting motor. And there are choices that fall between the E12 (which is probably too weak and might cause a crash), and the F44 (which might be too big for your field). You could try an E20 or E30.

You you don’t need a full simulation to get a good idea about motor choices. Try https://www.thrustcurve.org/. Click on Motor Guide, and put in the info. For a 4” diameter rocket, 12 oz, 24mm mount, rough surface, the Aerotech E30 and F44 are readily available and recommended. The Aerotech E20 and Estes E30 are estimated to fail due to low speed off the rod, and the E12, D12, E9, etc. are even worse.

Of course, those are just estimates, and you can definitely get a good flight out of an underpowered rocket, in the right conditions. For one thing, the default rod length for the simulation is 3 feet, so if you have a sturdy 6-foot rod, you will have better speed off the rod and a better chance at a good flight. And, if you launch the rocket in perfectly calm conditions, with zero wind, and point the rod straight up, with no angle, you will also increase your odds for success.

You've invested a lot of effort and money in the rocket, so you don’t want to crash it! My recommendation would be at least an E20 motor, a 6-foot rod angled straight up, and zero wind.
 
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