Nearly 2 YEARS...

[dave carver]

...since anything legal has happened with the "law suit". What, if anything, is going on?

I know the court system is slow but will it take a Presidential appeal to get this thing moving? It has gone past rediculous to ludicris, and as stated in the last filing BATFE is dragging this out to weaken the resolve of the plaintiff's (us) and drain limited financial resources.

I not doing anything hi-power until this is resolved and these delays are kind of getting me down. I have several hi-power projects waiting to fly(including a 3 stage 1/4 scale Argo D-4 Javelin) and with my health the way it is I fear I'll never be able to fly them

I just want to know if SOMETHING is happening

 

[BenK]

You know, I was just wondering the same thing. What is the latest in the lawsuit?

 

[BR549]

Here's the latest I could find, from October.

https://www.tripoli.org/documents/batfe/20081001jointstatement.shtml

 

[dave carver]

Yep, and nothing was done about the motion. This case is now NINE YEARS OLD, I'm sure it has to be the oldest case on any Federal docket and it need's to be resolved. It's Federal footdragging of the highest order. What, do they think we're going to go away? Not happening, this is to the bitter end. ATFE's blatant attempts with their "junk science" over 7000 page fileing to muddie the waters is growing thin.

Anyone here have Obama's ear? Or do we need to get ahold of a Supreme Court judge?

What's it going to take?

 

[Sailorbill]

...since anything legal has happened with the "law suit". What, if anything, is going on?

I know the court system is slow but will it take a Presidential appeal to get this thing moving? It has gone past rediculous to ludicris, and as stated in the last filing BATFE is dragging this out to weaken the resolve of the plaintiff's (us) and drain limited financial resources.

I not doing anything hi-power until this is resolved and these delays are kind of getting me down. I have several hi-power projects waiting to fly(including a 3 stage 1/4 scale Argo D-4 Javelin) and with my health the way it is I fear I'll never be able to fly them

I just want to know if SOMETHING is happening

I'm sorry you don't fly High Power it really hasn't affected my flying. I can always find a vendor or a friend to "sponser" a flight so I fly as often as I can afford.

 

[Peartree]

My fear at this point is that the current administration feels that government knows best and hasn't been shy about saying so. I don't intend for that to be a political comment and I ask that we not start an argument here. I just think that asking the government to help us in our case against the government is probably not going to be especially productive...

 

[Space Ranger]

I dont know what the best legal strategy is, but on a public relations end of it, it seems that TARC has also become a valuable tool for re-educating some schools (many who ended rocketry programs from the 60's - 80's due to liability fears). From reports it seems like TARC has given model rocketry a positive image to some VIP's in industry & government too, maybe that could be expanded. Doesnt hurt that it is held right outside Washington DC. Invite more government types to the launch, legislators, judges, even BATF employees, maybe try to get the President's children into rocketry?? It would be interesting if the child of a BATF official came home and said their class was participating in TARC and they wanted to participate. Another thought, maybe expand TARC to include a Level 1 High Power component, H & I motors, maybe for college students?? Just brainstormin. I know, its easy to throw out the ideas, but someone has to do the extra work and the NAR volunteers have done a great job with it so far.

 

[dave carver]

ahhhhh, the President's kids!!!!! A torpedo to the heart of the matter. Now we just need a "volunteer" to take the kids out to "launch"!

If I wasn't 3000 miles away I'd be at that school with a school program, cleared by the Secret Service of course, that might fire a couple of connected young minds.

Yah, I'm devious

 

[Gus]

From NAR president Trip Barber two days ago in the Electronic Rocketeer:

"Now all we need is a favorable decision on our lawsuit against BATFE for their excessive regulation of access to high power motors! Unfortunately, we are still awaiting the court's long-overdue decision on this, with no new information on when this may be issued."


As a side note, even though there is no new info to report it is nice to see Trip mention the case and his frustration at the lack of a judgement. The NAR has made great leaps and bounds in the last two years at keeping in touch with the membership.

 

[Space Ranger]

Another big opp for hi level PR is coming up this year, 40 yr anniversary of Apollo 11. It would be great if NAR could tie in Model rocketry to special events around the country, say a special display of Saturn V's at the Smithsonian, kind of like the recent Saturn 1b festivities. Wouldnt it be cool if a launch of Sat V's could be arranged from the National Mall, maybe it could be pulled off under Smithsonian auspicies....one launch for each Apollo mission, get VIP's, Apollo astronauts, & students to push the buttons.... Duplicate it around the US.

I remember reading that a Saturn V kit was launched at the Astrodome(?) way back, not sure what the event was, maybe half time at a super bowl?

 

[Swampworks]

...since anything legal has happened with the "law suit". What, if anything, is going on?

I just want to know if SOMETHING is happening

I can tell you one thing that is DEFINITELY happening.....That bill from the attorney's office is growing each month.

 

[sandman]

I dont know what the best legal strategy is, but on a public relations end of it, it seems that TARC has also become a valuable tool for re-educating some schools (many who ended rocketry programs from the 60's - 80's due to liability fears). From reports it seems like TARC has given model rocketry a positive image to some VIP's in industry & government too, maybe that could be expanded. Doesnt hurt that it is held right outside Washington DC. Invite more government types to the launch, legislators, judges, even BATF employees, maybe try to get the President's children into rocketry?? It would be interesting if the child of a BATF official came home and said their class was participating in TARC and they wanted to participate. Another thought, maybe expand TARC to include a Level 1 High Power component, H & I motors, maybe for college students?? Just brainstormin. I know, its easy to throw out the ideas, but someone has to do the extra work and the NAR volunteers have done a great job with it so far.

Actually it does...sort of...

Usually the top 20 or 25 winning TARC teams (I'm not sure of the number) gets invited by NASA to partisipate in the Student launch Initiative (SLI) which usually amounts to a level 2 or sometimes bigger rocket.

I attended one in Huntsville, AL and it was more fun than I deserved (all expenses paid by NASA!)

If anyone knows the exact particulars of the SLI program could they chime in, please.

 

[xenon]

Actually it does...sort of...

Usually the top 20 or 25 winning TARC teams (I'm not sure of the number) gets invited by NASA to partisipate in the Student launch Initiative (SLI) which usually amounts to a level 2 or sometimes bigger rocket.

I attended one in Huntsville, AL and it was more fun than I deserved (all expenses paid by NASA!)

If anyone knows the exact particulars of the SLI program could they chime in, please.

https://www.nasa.gov/offices/education/programs/descriptions/Student_Launch_Initiative.html

"The NASA Student Launch Initiative, or SLI, involves middle and high school students in designing, building and testing reusable rockets with associated scientific payloads. This unique hands-on experience allows students to demonstrate proof-of-concept for their designs and gives previously abstract concepts tangibility.

Both new and returning teams construct the vehicle that is designed to reach an altitude of one mile above ground level, or AGL. In addition to actual vehicle performance, teams are also evaluated on design and other criteria. This educational experience culminates with a launch at Marshall Space Flight Center in the spring.

Teams can qualify to participate in the Student Launch Initiative by placing in the top level two teams at the Rockets for Schools competition held in Wisconsin or by placing in the top at the Team America Rocketry Challenge, or TARC held in Virginia."

It's a lot of fun, I did it for two years and troj (admin here) went along with another local team both times.

 

[sandman]

https://www.nasa.gov/offices/education/programs/descriptions/Student_Launch_Initiative.html

"The NASA Student Launch Initiative, or SLI, involves middle and high school students in designing, building and testing reusable rockets with associated scientific payloads. This unique hands-on experience allows students to demonstrate proof-of-concept for their designs and gives previously abstract concepts tangibility.

Both new and returning teams construct the vehicle that is designed to reach an altitude of one mile above ground level, or AGL. In addition to actual vehicle performance, teams are also evaluated on design and other criteria. This educational experience culminates with a launch at Marshall Space Flight Center in the spring.

Teams can qualify to participate in the Student Launch Initiative by placing in the top level two teams at the Rockets for Schools competition held in Wisconsin or by placing in the top at the Team America Rocketry Challenge, or TARC held in Virginia."

It's a lot of fun, I did it for two years and troj (admin here) went along with another local team both times.

Thanks, that's the info we need!

All the info I got from my team was, "Hey, we have an extra ticket to Huntsville, ya wanna go?"

I was there!

 

[GuyNoir]

I can tell you one thing that is DEFINITELY happening.....That bill from the attorney's office is growing each month.

Incorrect.

If the NAR/TRA's attorney isn't doing any work, he's not billing any time, and the organizations are not paying any money.

Without action by the court, there won't be any reason for bills.

Ask me how I know.

 

[judo]

Invite more government types to the launch, legislators, judges, even BATF employees, maybe try to get the President's children into rocketry??

As my mother would have said, "That's a capital idea." Regardless of what anyone thinks of the Obama's, they are not uneducated. How far of a leap is it from a prestigious school for the kids to a potentially prestigious hobby. But with any politician, they all seem to have their minds made up and don't confuse them with the facts. If the president has no opinions about the hobby, that could be a good thing. Still, the present philosophy seems to be "Father (Government) Knows Best."

Yes, I'm still on hold...

Who was that guy in the cab in the movie "Airplane!" We will all just have to wait like he did.

 

[troj]

FWIW, in mere moments, there will be a joint statement posted to the TRA website. It will be linked to this page.

-Kevin

 

[AKPilot]

Well, looks like more to come on or after March 23rd.

 

[FROB]

Hey, Dave, way to call it! looks like somebody heard you.
now, care to pick some lottery numbers for me?

 

[RoyAtl]

I remember reading that a Saturn V kit was launched at the Astrodome(?) way back, not sure what the event was, maybe half time at a super bowl?

It was the New Years' Eve 1969 Astro-Bluebonnet Bowl.

I was left at home while the parental units were out partying. I was watching the football game, building a Mars Lander. When I saw the launch I was so excited, but I didn't have anyone to call. All my rocket friends were still at their various Christmas vacation locations.

https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ModelRocketry/Model_Rocketry_v02n06_03-70.pdf

 

[dave carver]

...that's just weird. Movement of the Molasses River....

I really hope Judge Walton see through the wall of crap thrown up by ATFE and we can get on with a hobby that should be growing and not stagnating. We can put up with rules that are reasonable but the effect of 1 over-reaching government agency on a hobby that means no harm to no one has been devistating.

I mean, we're just a bunch of space geeks out to have some fun

 

[madsen]

Yes, I'm still on hold...

Who was that guy in the cab in the movie "Airplane!" We will all just have to wait like he did.

Not to forget--the fare on the meter by the end of the movie was over $88,000.00. A tidy sum.

 

[Space Ranger]

As my mother would have said, "That's a capital idea." Regardless of what anyone thinks of the Obama's, they are not uneducated. How far of a leap is it from a prestigious school for the kids to a potentially prestigious hobby.


Send the TARC info links to their school's science teachers......
Same for other legislators' kids......

 

[atticus]

Dec. 31, 1969 BlueBonnet
Houston 36
Auburn 7

It was the New Years' Eve 1969 Astro-Bluebonnet Bowl.

I was left at home while the parental units were out partying. I was watching the football game, building a Mars Lander. When I saw the launch I was so excited, but I didn't have anyone to call. All my rocket friends were still at their various Christmas vacation locations.

https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ModelRocketry/Model_Rocketry_v02n06_03-70.pdf

 

[Fred22]

I really hope that this goes your way soon folks as it seems to have dragged on quite a while. Change at the top may mean this log jam gets cleared as well as other important issues get the intelligent consideration they deserve which they have not in a long time
Cheers
Fred

 

[AKPilot]

I mean, we're just a bunch of space geeks

I think that's what's scaring him!

 

[Pantherjon]

Well, just got the e-mail from NAR HQ..Some movement!

Copy/paste from the e-mail:

On February 17, 2009 the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia granted the motion that we filed on October 1, 2008 for a hearing on our long-standing lawsuit against BATFE. We requested this hearing to provide an opportunity for Judge Walton to clarify with all parties whatever facts may have been impeding his delivering a decision on this case. The hearing has been scheduled for 1:30 PM on Monday, March 23 in the E. Barrett Prettyman Federal Courthouse in Washington, DC. We will probably not know more until after this hearing, but will keep our members informed as soon as it is held.
​

So, there is some activity!

 

[MysticalRockets]

Well, just got the e-mail from NAR HQ..Some movement!

Copy/paste from the e-mail:

On February 17, 2009 the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia granted the motion that we filed on October 1, 2008 for a hearing on our long-standing lawsuit against BATFE. We requested this hearing to provide an opportunity for Judge Walton to clarify with all parties whatever facts may have been impeding his delivering a decision on this case. The hearing has been scheduled for 1:30 PM on Monday, March 23 in the E. Barrett Prettyman Federal Courthouse in Washington, DC. We will probably not know more until after this hearing, but will keep our members informed as soon as it is held.
​

So, there is some activity!

And its the day after NARCON. How about THAT for timing.

 

[Swampworks]

Incorrect.

If the NAR/TRA's attorney isn't doing any work, he's not billing any time, and the organizations are not paying any money.

Without action by the court, there won't be any reason for bills.

Ask me how I know.

I would set the over/under at 2 for "number of months in the last 12 that NAR/TRA has received no bill from the attorney's office on this case"


"We requested this hearing to provide an opportunity for Judge Walton to clarify with all parties whatever facts may have been impeding his delivering a decision on this case."

That pretty much means the result from that hearing will be ANOTHER period of time for the BATF to gather up a response to the NAR/TRA's "clarification". I'll make a guess of 6 months.......At about the 5 month mark, BATF will request an extension.

I have a dog that plays this game anytime I want her to. I tell her to find her ball. She goes get it and brings it to me. I throw it, she goes get it and brings it back. This repeats until one of us gets too tired, i.e. runs out of energy.

 

[roadkill]

*snip*
'I have a dog that plays this game anytime I want her to. I tell her to find her ball. She goes get it and brings it to me. I throw it, she goes get it and brings it back. This repeats until one of us gets too tired, i.e. runs out of energy. '
*snip/off*

Methins our dog was trained by BATF; I throw the ball
and she runs to get it - but doesn't give it back, just keeps
on teasing me with it and pulling it back at the last split second when
I reach for it....

...and she never runs out of energy first...

At least its a familiar feeling by now....