Initiator001
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If Estes enters the composite model rocket motor manufacturing arena, I believe they will be single-use motors, at least initially.
Eventually, motors in the 13mm, 18mm, 24mm, 29mm, and 38mm range might become available . . . As long as they are "affordably-priced", they should sell well . . . Fingers crossed !
Dave F.
Fingers crossed for Estes single-use composite motors, 13mm - 29mm, maybe 38mm, too.
Dave F.
They will probably use SP 10996 to ship it as 1.4 like everyone else. (That has a limit of 1.4kg which would require a two part propellant grain here.) If not, then the tiny market for this vanishes completely.Too bad it will be a 1.3C shipping charge. Extremely expensive to ship.
As for the 152mm 'L' motor it is probably just some leftover commercial/military project Estes Energetics was contracted to produce.
Why would Estes compete with itself?
They already own 100% of the 13mm motor market and the majority of the 18mm and 24mm motor market.
It is unlikely they could make composite motors cheaper than the black powder motors they already make.
This does not make sense from a business standpoint.
It is too much propellant for SP10996 and the DOT authorizations shows it as 1.3C with some packaging requirements. It appears to be a preloaded item according to the EX numberThey will probably use SP 10996 to ship it as 1.4 like everyone else. (That has a limit of 1.4kg which would require a two part propellant grain here.) If not, then the tiny market for this vanishes completely.
If that were true, why would Estes get it certified by NAR S&T ?
Dave F.
Estes would not be competing with itself since, at present, they only produce BP motors.
As for price . . . Composite motors will, likely, never be cheaper than BP motors . . . The object would be to produce Composite motors that are cheaper than other manufacturers make. If they could undercut Aerotech by a significant margin, rocketeers would flock to them.
Plus, imagine being able to go to the "AC Supply" website and getting Estes Composite motors at 40% off ! In the smaller motors, Estes might also produce"Bulk Packs" !
Dave F.
Estes is the only producer of 13mm diameter motors. It makes no difference how many different ways/propellants they use they still would be the only producer of 13mm motors. No competiton, no incentive to change.
Or just put a little straw on your nitroed igniter and jet the flame up and in.When CENTURI introduced ENERJET motors, there was no competition, yet they changed ( they were ahead of their time ).
When FSI made BP E & F motors, there was no competition, yet they changed . . . When FSI made the Thunderbolt F32 motor, there was no competition, yet they did it.
Estes needs to develop and produce Core-Burning BP motors in the B - F range . . .
As for the tiny nozzles of 13mm motors, "head end" ignition or incorporating the igniter into the motor are possibilities.
Dave F.
IIRC John Langford said it was for a government customer but he couldn’t say which. And I think he said they partnered with Purdue University on development of the propellant. It sounded like one of their big goals was developing the capabilities to do non-BP propellant for Estes Energetics more so than hobby rocketry uses but he left the door open on that so maybe we’ll see Centuri labeled APC motors someday.Maybe we should all signup and see what the master plan is!
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Tony
Estes needs to develop and produce Core-Burning BP motors in the B - F range . . .
As for the tiny nozzles of 13mm motors, "head end" ignition or incorporating the igniter into the motor are possibilities.
Dave F.
IIRC John Langford said it was for a government customer but he couldn’t say which. And I think he said they partnered with Purdue University on development of the propellant. It sounded like one of their big goals was developing the capabilities to do non-BP propellant for Estes Energetics more so than hobby rocketry uses but he left the door open on that so maybe we’ll see Centuri labeled APC motors someday.
The core burner Estes “E60” - that’s what I think John Langford called it - is coming. The one comment I remember him making for sure was that a prototype motor ripped the fins off a rocket on a test flight!
He addressed more powerful 13mm motors too - they’d need to develop a different propellant mix so not very likely.
What kind of casing would that be? I’d jump at trying that in my Hi-Flier XL if it were to fit a 24x95mm mount, but the Star Orbiter would also be fun if they went for 29x114mm.The core burner Estes “E60” - that’s what I think John Langford called it - is coming. The one comment I remember him making for sure was that a prototype motor ripped the fins off a rocket on a test flight!
It was way back on Friday night during the forum - Bill held up the motor while he was discussing it - IIRC it looked like a 24x95mm but that’s just from my less then stellar memory.What kind of casing would that be? I’d jump at trying that in my Hi-Flier XL if it were to fit a 24x95mm mount, but the Star Orbiter would also be fun if they went for 29x114mm.
Cardboard, just like the other Estes BP motors, pretty sure I have seen an early "beta" version of this motor (or at least pictures of the fired motor) about 4 months or so ago, huge nozzle both before and after.What kind of casing would that be? I’d jump at trying that in my Hi-Flier XL if it were to fit a 24x95mm mount, but the Star Orbiter would also be fun if they went for 29x114mm.
it was an empty casing, for illustration purposes. From the style of the markings it looked like an old E15 24x89mm casing!It was way back on Friday night during the forum - Bill held up the motor while he was discussing it - IIRC it looked like a 24x95mm but that’s just from my less then stellar memory.
They have made prototypes of a similar powered motor for DECADES! The surprise to me is that they've upped the av thrust to ~60n. I expected when someone decided to actually produce it, it would be around 35-40n.Cardboard, just like the other Estes BP motors, pretty sure I have seen an early "beta" version of this motor (or at least pictures of the fired motor) about 4 months or so ago, huge nozzle both before and after.
A 6mm difference….it was an empty casing, for illustration purposes. From the style of the markings it looked like an old E15 24x89mm casing!
What kind of casing would that be? I’d jump at trying that in my Hi-Flier XL if it were to fit a 24x95mm mount, but the Star Orbiter would also be fun if they went for 29x114mm.
The core burner Estes “E60” - that’s what I think John Langford called it - is coming. The one comment I remember him making for sure was that a prototype motor ripped the fins off a rocket on a test flight!
Good Lord I hope it’s available in a booster motor.It would make a heck of a booster motor.
He addressed more powerful 13mm motors too - they’d need to develop a different propellant mix so not very likely.
I guess my point was "How cool IF they are going to produce motors for the hobby and not just military etc!!!!". Maybe the government or another commercial customer needs NAR S&T motor certification for use.
Sandy.
NASA Student Launch Initiative teams use certified motors https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/2022_nasa_students_launch_handbook.pdf
I wasn’t specifically offering the SLI teams as a user of this Estes Energetics motor - just pointing out that there are institutional users who are required to use certified motors
The main reason I would wish for this it would make them more inclined to offer larger kits like the old PSII kits. Until they have their own motor that can loft them, I don't see them making any more. But I don't really know how eager they are to start offering the larger kits again anyway. I don't get the impression they sold great the first time around; mainly, they sold tons of them when they were being blown out on clearance.I hope Estes gets into some AP motors.
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