Initiator001
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NAR S&T: New Estes motor certified - L2350
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Initiator001
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Why would Estes compete with itself?
They already own 100% of the 13mm motor market and the majority of the 18mm and 24mm motor market.
It is unlikely they could make composite motors cheaper than the black powder motors they already make.
This does not make sense from a business standpoint.
As for the 152mm 'L' motor it is probably just some leftover commercial/military project Estes Energetics was contracted to produce.
UhClem
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They will probably use SP 10996 to ship it as 1.4 like everyone else. (That has a limit of 1.4kg which would require a two part propellant grain here.) If not, then the tiny market for this vanishes completely.
Estes would not be competing with itself since, at present, they only produce BP motors.
As for price . . . Composite motors will, likely, never be cheaper than BP motors . . . The object would be to produce Composite motors that are cheaper than other manufacturers make. If they could undercut Aerotech by a significant margin, rocketeers would flock to them.
Plus, imagine being able to go to the "AC Supply" website and getting Estes Composite motors at 40% off ! In the smaller motors, Estes might also produce"Bulk Packs" !
Dave F.
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It is too much propellant for SP10996 and the DOT authorizations shows it as 1.3C with some packaging requirements. It appears to be a preloaded item according to the EX number
Initiator001
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That IS the $64,000 question.
Speculation consists of Estes Energetics needing an 'independent' testing facility to test the motor and provide data to the buyer.
Or, Estes might have done it just to say they had a NAR certified 'L' motor.
Initiator001
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Estes is the only producer of 13mm diameter motors. It makes no difference how many different ways/propellants they use they still would be the only producer of 13mm motors. No competiton, no incentive to change.
AeroTech has made 13mm motors in the past for the US FAI teams. Casting the propellant is hard. The nozzle throat is so small it's hard to make an igniter that will fit into the motor.
More problems than it is worth for a small market share of the hobby.
AeroTech pretty much has efficient methods for mass-producing small composite propellant motors.
Making large batches of propellant that translate into hundreds of grains for E20 motors is straightforward.
The only way to make more propellant faster is to use a continuous mixing machine like the ones used by ATK, Aerojet, etc.
AeroTech looked into getting such a machine in the 1990s. At that time the cost was around $1,000,000.
The drawbacks are that the machine cannot stop for any reason. If it does one must immediately tear it down and clean it before the propellant cures inside.
The propellant is usually the least expensive component of a composite motor. It is all the labor that goes into the assembly and finishing of the motor that often drives the cost. Over the past 20-30 years AeroTech has slowly impoved the materials and methods to make composite hobby motors.
If your statements about Estes mass producing composite motors is just wishful thinking there is no harm in that. Reality would be much different.
When CENTURI introduced ENERJET motors, there was no competition, yet they changed ( they were ahead of their time ).
When FSI made BP E & F motors, there was no competition, yet they changed . . . When FSI made the Thunderbolt F32 motor, there was no competition, yet they did it.
Estes needs to develop and produce Core-Burning BP motors in the B - F range . . .
As for the tiny nozzles of 13mm motors, "head end" ignition or incorporating the igniter into the motor are possibilities.
Dave F.
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Or just put a little straw on your nitroed igniter and jet the flame up and in.
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Maybe we should all signup and see what the master plan is!
https://www.accelevents.com/e/NARCO...NDRt8TNKHNo6j2Qr4CA-aH-szVbSsrFseEsJBI#agenda
Tony
https://www.accelevents.com/e/NARCO...NDRt8TNKHNo6j2Qr4CA-aH-szVbSsrFseEsJBI#agenda
Tony
terryg
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Well, the picture of the burn that was shown at narcon looked pretty impressive to me.
Scott_650
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IIRC John Langford said it was for a government customer but he couldn’t say which. And I think he said they partnered with Purdue University on development of the propellant. It sounded like one of their big goals was developing the capabilities to do non-BP propellant for Estes Energetics more so than hobby rocketry uses but he left the door open on that so maybe we’ll see Centuri labeled APC motors someday.
The core burner Estes “E60” - that’s what I think John Langford called it - is coming. The one comment I remember him making for sure was that a prototype motor ripped the fins off a rocket on a test flight!
He addressed more powerful 13mm motors too - they’d need to develop a different propellant mix so not very likely.
"E60" . . . Rock & Roll ! ! !
Hmm . . . Pondering a "hybrid" solid propellant, consisting of BP incorporating a small amount of APCP to get ISP up, while remaining at current case dimensions.
Dave F.
What kind of casing would that be? I’d jump at trying that in my Hi-Flier XL if it were to fit a 24x95mm mount, but the Star Orbiter would also be fun if they went for 29x114mm.
Scott_650
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It was way back on Friday night during the forum - Bill held up the motor while he was discussing it - IIRC it looked like a 24x95mm but that’s just from my less then stellar memory.
rharshberger
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Cardboard, just like the other Estes BP motors, pretty sure I have seen an early "beta" version of this motor (or at least pictures of the fired motor) about 4 months or so ago, huge nozzle both before and after.
RoyAtl
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it was an empty casing, for illustration purposes. From the style of the markings it looked like an old E15 24x89mm casing!
RoyAtl
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They have made prototypes of a similar powered motor for DECADES! The surprise to me is that they've upped the av thrust to ~60n. I expected when someone decided to actually produce it, it would be around 35-40n.
A 6mm difference….
Assuming those are the dimensions that go into production as the E60, could that be adapted to fit a 24x95mm motor mount tube with a standard 24mm motor block? Or would a brand new adapter have to be made?
I'm hoping it's a "cored" F15 motor . . . Maximum BP weight and Total Impulse that way.
I doubt that Estes would consider a longer casing, unless "F100's" are in the future plans.
Dave F.
I hope Estes gets into some AP motors.
Initiator001
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During the Manufacturers' Forum Bill Stine refered to the motor as "24mm (pause) long". I suspect it will use the 24mm x 95mm case used for the E9/E12 as companies tend to use items they already have in stock.
Stine also said it would have 30 grams of BP so it would be USPS shippable. That will make it a low to mid-range Total Impulse 'E' motor. High thurst-short burn. The phrase used was 'deep core' so I wonder if a new igniter/starter will be required for it.
It would make a heck of a booster motor.
Good Lord I hope it’s available in a booster motor.It would make a heck of a booster motor.
I actually have a chronic case of GAS: Gear Acquisition Syndrome. This thought is certainly not helping.
What that does is show a 3rd party tested your product to the specs you are selling to
Yes but Universities do not need them per NFPA at other launches at Space Port and a few other places, they even fly liquid motors
I wasn’t specifically offering the SLI teams as a user of this Estes Energetics motor - just pointing out that there are institutional users who are required to use certified motors
Incorrect, it is the SLI requiring it, NFPA allows universities to be exempt and even make their own motors.
The main reason I would wish for this it would make them more inclined to offer larger kits like the old PSII kits. Until they have their own motor that can loft them, I don't see them making any more. But I don't really know how eager they are to start offering the larger kits again anyway. I don't get the impression they sold great the first time around; mainly, they sold tons of them when they were being blown out on clearance.
