# NAR JR HPR Coming?

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#### shockwaveriderz

##### Well-Known Member
This is a quote from John Lyngdal, one of the NAR trustees on a post he made on RMR:

"NAR is working towards developing a Jr. HPR certification
program that is compliant to current US laws and regulations. Rollout date is scheduled for mid-summer."

very interesting.....

#### Neil

##### Well-Known Member
This calls for celebrations!!!! Break out the grape juice! (I do *NOT* think it is time to lower the drinking age, do you? ). Non-fermented, of course.

yaaaayy..... Now.... I wonder if it is just L1, or if I can do L2 also....

Heheeee.... this could take away my dad's #1 persuasion tool: "you *NEED* me for your HPR flights"...... Hehehehheeeee...... Hes not gonna like this....

#### Ryan S.

##### Well-Known Member
I am sure you will still need your dad, this will probably involve someone whatching over you very very closely.

You still, for example will need to be over 18 to buy the loads, and they will probably make an adult hold onto them for you and you will need to be whatched while loading them

Either way this is very very cool

#### Neil

##### Well-Known Member
Joke... Hah. Hah. hah. (sorry. Couldent resist)

Well, if thats the case, I might as well continue doing it the way I am now. My dad buys teh loads, watches me load em, brings em to the pad with me and thats that.

Whats the difference, then?

#### Ryan S.

##### Well-Known Member
probably not a huge difference....I think i will probably keep doing it the way I am going to to if that is the case

#### Neil

##### Well-Known Member
Yep. Same here. if its just the same deal only with a card involved, why bother.... Id rather spend that money on the motors....

#### n3tjm

##### Papa Elf
Originally posted by Neil

Whats the difference, then?

I guess the big differece is you will be allowed to load the loads and handle the motors. Technically, if you are not certified... you not suposed to be handleing the loads... unless you have one that you will be using for your cert flight...

Then there is the issue of being 18 to get the loads...

#### Neil

##### Well-Known Member
Well, actually my dad and I usually load em together, to some extent.

You would still have to have someone who is 18 get the loads. No difference there.

#### LMazza

##### Well-Known Member
That's good news! I'll be 18 this summer but for many other people I'm sure this is good to hear.

A

#### Austin

What you heard was correct, we are discussing this right now in our NAR private forums...not sure how long it will take, but at least it is being considered.

Carl

#### scm86

##### Well-Known Member
Glad to hear its finally coming to this side of the border... my question, are the requirements going to be the same for certing as a junior and senior, or are we going to get stuck with extra tests to 'prove' that we really know what we are doing?

Scott McNeely

#### shockwaveriderz

##### Well-Known Member
good Question Scott...and I don't know the answer but I can give you my opinion.....

Right now No test is required for an L1 certification attempt by an adult... I personally think their should be.....

There is a written test for L2 certification....and if you have looked at the pool of test questions, they basically test your knowledge of the NFPA 1127 Code for High Power Rockets..which is the laws under which you can fly HPR.... I don't know nor understand why the NAR/TRA thinks that a person that launches JKL models needs to be tested on NFPA 1127 and NOT HI models...... They are both covered under NFPA 1127...

Is it important that a person know the rules and regulations within NFPA 1127? well let me ask it this way: Since the NFPA 1127 is what is state law in many states, is it important that you personally know what the law of the land is before you launch a L2 level HPR? I would think so.... Its a matter of safety...

Thats why I also think there needs to be a written test for juniors for an L1 certification attempt. when you are 16 you can get a drivers license in most states, and an L1 certification is basically a "drivers license" whcih allow you to fly HI power rockets....and there is a written test of your driver knowledge .....

I personally have never had a problem with young adults, ie say 14-17 yr olds doing HPR as long as it was under the DIRECT supervision and control of a parent or guardian...

Another area of L1 certification that needs to be addressed is Reloadable motors....First of all a person under the age of 18 is currently not supposed to be able to purchase reloadable motors, minors are restricted to single use motors....

The NAR from my point of view needs to implement some for
of training or education program that teaches minors how to properly assemble reloadable motors .....

Perhaps the NAR should consider implmenting a "phased" in L1 certification for minors...ie..... L1/1 would be a simple single stage H motor with engine ejection of parachute...much like a model rocket.... an L1/2 might be a H model with altimeter where you have engine ejection of the drogue and altimeter actuation of the main.... an L1/3 might be a fully altimeter based recovery......etc etc.. sorta like the current NARTREK program.....

What I would like to see the NAR/TRA do is create the concept of a large model rocket motor, one which is 113/125 grams of propellant. This would encompass most small and medium H engines. These engine would be readily available to anybody 18 yrs of age or older... and they woudl be considered Large Model Rockets and Large Model Rocket Engines....NOT HPR..so no L1 would be required...

The NAR needs to set the precedent NOW for the legal concept of Large Model Rocket motors that are > 62.5 and < = 113/125 grams so that they can get them exempted fully from the ATF explosives laws.....

L1 would start with I engines such that an L1 would be IJ and an L2 would KL and L3 would be whatever? MN ?

#### daveyfire

##### Piled Higher and Deeper
I wrote an article about this in the December 2002 Extreme Rocketry Aft Closure. I think it's a good idea, provided that we know what we're doing.

Oh, and Neil, another benefit: I can get rid of that big fat ZERO on my NAR card! If only Tripoli would implement such a system. Oh well, two years and I'll be 18 anyways...

#### Neil

##### Well-Known Member
LOL. That would be nice.... Couldent it at least say "none" or "N/A"!?

Though I am still not sure if its worth whatever it would cost to do this just to change the type on the card...

#### Chuck Rudy

##### Well-Known Member
I personally have never had a problem with young adults, ie say 14-17 yr olds doing HPR as long as it was under the DIRECT supervision and control of a parent or guardian...Shockie B

I've watched severy impressive young lads load some amazingly complex motors with airstarts while dad has a chucklefest away from the launch rail. He does so because his name is on the flight, but he ain't got a clue. There are a bunch of kids who can teach plenty of adults a ton.......as long as the adults still have to sign off on the motor from vendor to rail, they can tell all the jokes they want while junior arms the cannons.

I would not like to see layered certification. L1 at 14, L2 at 16, L3 at 18. Make it simple, make it work and make it last. And get it going soon, this is long overdue.

#### BlueNinja

##### Well-Known Member
Woohoo! I hope this goes through. Anything on the minimum age even for the JR certs?

As for getting the motors, thats not a problem. I heard someone on here say you could get H128s really cheap, the casing is the expensive part.

#### Johnly

##### Well-Known Member
Chuck,

You have a pretty good crystal ball as far as how we're attempting to implement the program. Giving credit where credit is due, one can look at the CAR Jr. HPR certification program and get a general idea of how we're trying to implement the program.

Supervision by an adult is going to be a key part of the program due to regulations pertaining to the possession HPR APCP motors by those under the age of 18 years of age.

Best Regards,

John Lyngdal
NAR Trustee

Originally posted by Chuck Rudy
I personally have never had a problem with young adults, ie say 14-17 yr olds doing HPR as long as it was under the DIRECT supervision and control of a parent or guardian...Shockie B

I've watched severy impressive young lads load some amazingly complex motors with airstarts while dad has a chucklefest away from the launch rail. He does so because his name is on the flight, but he ain't got a clue. There are a bunch of kids who can teach plenty of adults a ton.......as long as the adults still have to sign off on the motor from vendor to rail, they can tell all the jokes they want while junior arms the cannons.

I would not like to see layered certification. L1 at 14, L2 at 16, L3 at 18. Make it simple, make it work and make it last. And get it going soon, this is long overdue.

#### scm86

##### Well-Known Member
John,
I apreciate your reply. another question, are hybrids going to be allowed for Jr certs? i noticed that our friends to the north dont allow hybrids for their L1's...

and while we have your attention here, an almost off topic question: according to different parts of this page here, particularly the second bullet at the top and point 5 towards the bottom, you can or cannot fly hybrids as an L1, which is it?

Thanx

Scott McNeely

#### Johnly

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by scm86
John,
I apreciate your reply. another question, are hybrids going to be allowed for Jr certs? i noticed that our friends to the north dont allow hybrids for their L1's...

and while we have your attention here, an almost off topic question: according to different parts of this page here, particularly the second bullet at the top and point 5 towards the bottom, you can or cannot fly hybrids as an L1, which is it?

Thanx

Scott McNeely
Scott,

The HPR L1 and L2 certification documents are currently under revision to update the information, correct any errors, and to update the program based on changes that have occurred within the hobby since it was drafted.

Among the proposed changes is the ability of the L1 HPR flier to use hybrid motors.

John

#### scm86

##### Well-Known Member
Cool, thank you for clearing that up, that makes it a little easier for minors to get a hold of motors too. my dad is L1, and will do L2 for me as long as he doesnt have to get an LEUP, and im sure im not the only one in that position, hybrids definatley help there...

Scott McNeely

#### UhClem

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Johnly
Chuck,

You have a pretty good crystal ball as far as how we're attempting to implement the program. Giving credit where credit is due, one can look at the CAR Jr. HPR certification program and get a general idea of how we're trying to implement the program.

Supervision by an adult is going to be a key part of the program due to regulations pertaining to the possession HPR APCP motors by those under the age of 18 years of age.

Best Regards,

John Lyngdal
NAR Trustee
Which regulations are you referring to? The BATFE certainly does not prohibit possession of explosives based on age. You can't get a permit to purchase unless you are 21 and you can't distribute to anyone under 21, but simple possession isn't prohibited. See 27 CFR 555.26(c)

#### jetra2

##### Well-Known Member
I think that a JR and LR certification program would be great. It doesn't really mean much to me, though. I just turned seventeen, and by time this actually rolls around, I will be eighteen, and able to cert and buy/purchase motors legally (at least the ones that don't require a LEUP). I won't be pursuing this program for myself, by I beleive it is a good program and do support it.

Jason

#### Chuck Rudy

##### Well-Known Member
Johnly

IMO this is long overdue. To attract and retain kids in rocketry they need reasonable goals, and one of them should be certification. 12 year old kids with a thirst for the knowledge this hobby holds shouldn't have to wait 6 years to move to the next step. the goals should be attainable in a reasonable amount of time. I applaud your efforts, this hobby needs young blood.

Chuck

#### BlueNinja

##### Well-Known Member
Yep, chuck is right just 3 days ago I was dreaming of the day I was 18... even thinking to get certed on my b-day. Not anymore!(hopefully) Maybe I have my hopes up too much, but this just got me real excited.

#### Johnly

##### Well-Known Member
UhClem wrote:

Which regulations are you referring to? The BATFE certainly does not prohibit possession of explosives based on age. You can't get a permit to purchase unless you are 21 and you can't distribute to anyone under 21, but simple possession isn't prohibited. See 27 CFR 555.26(c)

My response:

Are you sure that you are looking at the latest version of 27 CFR 555?

Here's a portion of the updated version that appeared in the Federal register which can be viewed at:

https://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2003/03-6573.htm[/url]

[Federal Register: March 20, 2003 (Volume 68, Number 54)]
[Rules and Regulations]
[Page 13767-13793]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr20mr03-18]

Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
27 CFR Part 555

Implementation of the Safe Explosives Act, Title XI, Subtitle C of
Public Law 107-296; Interim Final Rule

A. Section 555.26 (Prohibited Shipment, Transportation, Receipt,
Possession , or Distribution of Explosive Materials)

This section has also been amended to reflect the newly expanded categories of persons prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, and possessing explosive materials. Newly added prohibited categories'' include illegal and nonimmigrant aliens, persons who have been discharged from the armed forces under dishonorable conditions,
and persons who have renounced their United States citizenship. Section 555.106 has been amended to reflect these new categories as well, in the context of persons to whom distribution of explosive materials is prohibited.

§ 55.106 Certain prohibited distributions.
(a) A licensee shall not distribute explosive
materials to any person not licensed or holding a
permit under this part, who the licensee knows or
has reason to believe does not reside in the State in
This paragraph does not apply to the distribution of
explosive materials to a resident of a State
contiguous to the State in which the licensee's place
of business is located, if the requirements of §
55.105(c) are fully met.
(b) A licensee shall not distribute any explosive
materials to any person:
(1) Who the licensee knows is less than 21 years
of age;
(2) In any State where the purchase,
possession, or use by a person of explosive
materials would be in violation of any State law or
any published ordinance applicable at the place of

Subpart BDefinitions
§ 55.11 Meaning of terms.

distribute. To sell, issue, give, transfer, or
otherwise dispose of. The term does not include a
mere change of possession from a person to his
agent or employee in connection with the agency or
employment.

With that information as a backdrop, knowing that APCP is on the "list"(independent of the fact that it shouldn't be), that a Single Use or an assembled reloadable H class APCP motor contains in excess of 62.5 grams of propellant which meets the BATFE's definition of a regulated device, how can one legally give it to someone under the age of 21? That's right 21. In the days prior to SEA, one could possess explosive materials without a federal permit, but no longer. This is why the BATFE is trying to put the screws to sale of "Easy Access" reload kits.

On top of all this there could be local and state laws that could also come into play, further complicating the situation.

NAR does not promote activities which might subject a participant to legal action. Futhermore, if we condoned such activities, the organization itself could be placed at risk. As a result, we're treading very carefully with this program, while still offering the oppertiunites to the Jr. fliers. I agree, it won't be perfect but we'll do the best we can.

John

#### BlueNinja

##### Well-Known Member
I'm not quite sure I get it. I am under 21 and under 18, so does this mean a parent/guardian cannot buy the motors for me then allow me to possess them? Or is that legal?

#### Johnly

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Blue_Ninja_150
I'm not quite sure I get it. I am under 21 and under 18, so does this mean a parent/guardian cannot buy the motors for me then allow me to possess them? Or is that legal?

I wish I knew. These are exactly the issues we are wrangling with.

John

#### UhClem

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Johnly
UhClem wrote:

Which regulations are you referring to? The BATFE certainly does not prohibit possession of explosives based on age. You can't get a permit to purchase unless you are 21 and you can't distribute to anyone under 21, but simple possession isn't prohibited. See 27 CFR 555.26(c)

My response:

Are you sure that you are looking at the latest version of 27 CFR 555?

Here's a portion of the updated version that appeared in the Federal register which can be viewed at:

https://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2003/03-6573.htm[/url]

[Federal Register: March 20, 2003 (Volume 68, Number 54)]
[Rules and Regulations]
[Page 13767-13793]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr20mr03-18]

Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
27 CFR Part 555

Implementation of the Safe Explosives Act, Title XI, Subtitle C of
Public Law 107-296; Interim Final Rule

A. Section 555.26 (Prohibited Shipment, Transportation, Receipt,
Possession , or Distribution of Explosive Materials)

This section has also been amended to reflect the newly expanded categories of persons prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, and possessing explosive materials. Newly added prohibited categories'' include illegal and nonimmigrant aliens, persons who have been discharged from the armed forces under dishonorable conditions,
and persons who have renounced their United States citizenship. Section 555.106 has been amended to reflect these new categories as well, in the context of persons to whom distribution of explosive materials is prohibited.

§ 55.106 Certain prohibited distributions.
(a) A licensee shall not distribute explosive
materials to any person not licensed or holding a
permit under this part, who the licensee knows or
has reason to believe does not reside in the State in
This paragraph does not apply to the distribution of
explosive materials to a resident of a State
contiguous to the State in which the licensee's place
of business is located, if the requirements of §
55.105(c) are fully met.
(b) A licensee shall not distribute any explosive
materials to any person:
(1) Who the licensee knows is less than 21 years
of age;
(2) In any State where the purchase,
possession, or use by a person of explosive
materials would be in violation of any State law or
any published ordinance applicable at the place of

Subpart BDefinitions
§ 55.11 Meaning of terms.

distribute. To sell, issue, give, transfer, or
otherwise dispose of. The term does not include a
mere change of possession from a person to his
agent or employee in connection with the agency or
employment.

With that information as a backdrop, knowing that APCP is on the "list"(independent of the fact that it shouldn't be), that a Single Use or an assembled reloadable H class APCP motor contains in excess of 62.5 grams of propellant which meets the BATFE's definition of a regulated device, how can one legally give it to someone under the age of 21? That's right 21. In the days prior to SEA, one could possess explosive materials without a federal permit, but no longer. This is why the BATFE is trying to put the screws to sale of "Easy Access" reload kits.

On top of all this there could be local and state laws that could also come into play, further complicating the situation.

NAR does not promote activities which might subject a participant to legal action. Futhermore, if we condoned such activities, the organization itself could be placed at risk. As a result, we're treading very carefully with this program, while still offering the oppertiunites to the Jr. fliers. I agree, it won't be perfect but we'll do the best we can.

John
Yes I am looking at the correct version of the regulations. The April 2003 revision available from the GPO web site:

https://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_03/27cfr555_03.html

27 CFR 555.26(c) defines the persons who are prohibited from possessing explosives. Age is not mentioned.

You, however, have quoted an obsolete version of the regulations. The first clue is that it shows it as Part 55 when it changed to part 555 when the BATFE moved to the Justice Department last year. Heck, your stated reference doesn't even show what you have quoted.

27 CFR 555.106(a) currently says:

(a) A licensee or permittee may not distribute explosive materials
to any person except--
(2) A holder of a user permit; or
(3) A holder of a limited permit who is a resident of the State
where distribution is made and in which the premises of the transferor
are located.

You may not distribute explosives to anyone without a permit but allowing someone to assist you in their use does not constitute a "distribution". Otherwise that person MUST have a permit. But if you read one of the documents that the BATFE produced to answer questions about the effects of the SEA, Persons assisting you in the use of explosives do NOT need a permit.

https://www.atf.gov/explarson/safexpact/documents/scenarioqa.pdf

The definition of persons prohibited from possessing explosives at 27 CFR 55.26(c) does not mention age. Why? I have no clue. Ask the BATFE.

It is quite clear to me that I can let anyone assist me in the assembly and use of motors who I do not know is a prohibited person as defined at 27 CFR 55.26(c). Which doesn't mention age.

What is not clear is if I can accept money from said person to purchase the motor and then let them assemble and fly it under my direct supervision. This appears to me to be a "strawman" purchase. I know that some permittees are doing this but I have not seen any official ruling from the BATFE saying that it is permitted.

Even if I maintain possession of the motor there are other problems. If certain provisions of NPRM 968 take effect, I could be construed as "being in the business" (because I am being paid) which would mean that I would need a manufacturers permit in order to assemble a reload.

I guess I will inquire when the inspector comes around when I renew my permit.

I understand that the NAR is trying to help out the junior members but the federal, state, and local regulations are a simmering tar pit. As an example.....

Oklahoma passed laws regulating the sale and use of explosives in 1997 that require a state permit (or a letter stating that you are exempt) before purchasing explosives. In their definition of explosives they include "all materials classified as explosive by the United States Department of Transportation". It did not exempt rocket motors. While I have heard of no enforcement actions against hobby shops that sell Estes motors, the law hasn't been changed.

Good luck in navigating this mess.

#### Johnly

##### Well-Known Member
It seems that explosive regulations are getting about as difficult to follow as the US Tax code. This situation is a good example, as the complete list of prohibited activities are not listed in a single section of the code. This is further compounded by the failure by the regulators to update their information. The section of 27CFR555.106 I posted was copied directly from the BATFE website. As you pointed out it has not be updated since SEA took effect, and is therefore not current. However the new version doesn't help us much, as no one under the age of 21 can meet the requirements given that the term "distribute" as defined by the BATFE includes "give" within the scope of the definition.

John

#### Justin Horne

##### Well-Known Member
I know this is an old post, but has anyone heard anything new regarding this?

Justin.