NAR Guidelines

[JPVegh]

You seem to have gotten there by being angry and vicious and attacking everyone around you at every opportunity. I'm not sure why anyone - LPR or HPR - would want to come to your property?

You might want to go back and look at his posts around this forum. Yes he can be opinionated and a bit long winded at times but he is also very knowledgable and he has been extremely helpful to many on this forum. As a land owner who is kind enough to let other rocketeers use his properties he is completely within his rights to set the rules for the launch. I am greatful to have access to any launch area and am completely happy flying class 1 stuff all day.

As far as the rules of the various organizations I belong to, I figure that I signed up to launch under the auspices of that organization and its insurance and as such I am legally and morally bound to abide by their rules when I do so.

I also launched for many years without the sanction of any organization and frankly I never considered that there might have been any laws regulating my activites, maybe there weren't any back then, I don't know. During that time it would not have out of the question for me to cluster up to seven D motors or cluster or stage FSI F motors. I never asked anyone if it was permitted, I just bought the stuff and did it.

 

[Rocketbuilder]

Luke,

You have to be the most negative and bitter person toward HPR I have ever encountered anywhere - and that's saying a lot.

To the original poster...fly with a club if you can. I bet there are other people that would like to see that flight - I know I would. BP clusters are fun.

You seem to have gotten there by being angry and vicious and attacking everyone around you at every opportunity. I'm not sure why anyone - LPR or HPR - would want to come to your property?

I'm not trying to pick fight or anything, but I think that's a little harsh... I personally have no reason to believe that Luke Strawwalker is angry or bitter towards HPR; just disagrees with how some of the regulations are structured.; I can see why he has a problem with rules that are "form over substance."
I have never seen a single one of his posts that was angry, vicious, or attacking anyone. Maybe there's something I'm not getting, but is seems like you guys are overreacting a little. Everyone has a right to their own opinions, but keep in mind that while everyone's opinion is valid, not every opinion needs to be heard every time.
I try to stay out of arguments in general, but I felt that this needed to be said. I've spoken my mind now, and will refrain from further comment on this issue.

 

[georgegassaway]

Four D12's would be fine, I don't want to mix and match motors

Usually, that's a good........ uh, "guideline".

In this case, the E9 and D12 are very much alike as far as igniting them. So if you figure you can reliably ignite four E9's, or four D12's, you can reliably ignite two D12's and two E9's.

Where it get messy is when clustering composite motors. But all-BP motors like these, similar (though not identical) in nozzle size and thrust, I think you'd be fine. I've done a model like that myself, all four motors lit fine and it flew really nicely.

Anyway, it'd be a good idea to do the first flight on four D12's anyway. Then try the two D12 and two E9 combo later.

- George Gassaway

 

[o1d_dude]

You seem to have gotten there by being angry and vicious and attacking everyone around you at every opportunity. I'm not sure why anyone - LPR or HPR - would want to come to your property?

Luke is a Texan. It's all about riding, shooting straight, and speaking the truth. :horse: :bangbang: :gavel:

'Equitare, arcum tendere, veritatem dicere.'
- Herodotus, 484-425 BC
'To ride, shoot straight, and speak the truth.'
- Jeff Cooper, 1920-2006 AD

 

[BlueCollar Rocketeer]

I always find Luke's posts informative and as polite as needed to get his point across. Seems his opinions have a solid foundation behind them and he is willing to listen to other people's ideas and opinions as well. Just because he disagrees doesn't make him a negative force. Most seem to throw their opinions around and then become insulted when we all don't just fall in line behind the new leader.

Sounds like a cool rocket Afterburner. BP clusters are great when they all light. Fire the 4 D12's then 2D12's and 2E9's and then.........:wink:

 

[bobkrech]

Luke,

You have to be the most negative and bitter person toward HPR I have ever encountered anywhere - and that's saying a lot.

To the original poster...fly with a club if you can. I bet there are other people that would like to see that flight - I know I would. BP clusters are fun.

Luke has never been afraid to state his opinion. He is a straight shooter and knowledgeable, and is a valuable contributor to this forum. We don't all have to agree with each other all the time, but we should never be afraid to listen to all points of view.

I hink its worth comparing the NAR safety code to the Tripoli safety code. Tripoli's is much more detailed. NAR's is rather vague, and seems to assume that everyone launches on their own. IMO, there should be a safety code for range operations. With regards to the armin/disarming of ejection charges, it is interesting to note that the L3 cert procedures require this, but the high power safety code does not. This should be a requirement, IMO. Overall, I would say that the NAR codes underestimate the importance of what happens on the ground.
I'd be curious to see RRS's safety code, also, to see how they deal with safety.

There is virtually no difference in the launch procedures between NAR and TRA, just a difference in how they are presented.

For background information, you should know that any civilian rocket launch, regardless of the source, except for FAA Class 1 model rockets, are forbidden within the controlled airspace of the US without written permission from the FAA. High Power Rockets, formally specified in the CFRs as Class 2 and 3 rockets, may be launched if the launchers have received a written wavier to do so from the FAA. The conditions for the waiver are listed in the Part 101 regulations for amateur rockets.

NAR and TRA exist today to assist the hobby rocket community in launching rockets. One important requirement of the FAA is that the launcher obtains the permission of the landowner, and NAR and TRA assist the hobbyist by providing inexpensive insurance to protect the landowner in case their is a claim against them if the launch goes bad. The insurance industry's underwriting requirements for insurance coverage is formalized in NFPA 1127, the Code for High Power Rockets that was developed jointly by NAR, TRA and the NFPA, and is expansion of NFPA 1122, the code for Model Rocketry developed jointly by NAR and NFPA.

The complete unabridged Safety and Procedures Code for both NAR and TRA is the CFR Part 101, all local codes and NFPA 1127. Both organizations require their high power launchers to know and understand NFPA 1127 as part of the written L2 test regardless whether it is in their Official High Hower Safety Code or not. The new Official TRA High Power Safety code is written like NFPA 1127 from which it is derived and duplicates most of the 1127 code elements. NAR has chosen to simplify the written NAR High Power Safety C into a simple short generalized document that is much easier to understand for those attending a launch.

If you go the the NAR website, you will find other documents that specifically refer to NFPA 1127 such as the RSO training guide and the Launch Safe Report that analyzed launch safety and was instrumental in changing the last 2 revisions of NFPA 1127. These documents outline the launch procedures that are followed at organized NAR launches. If you reat them in detail you will find they are totally in compliance with Federal regulation and NFPA 1127. If you read the TRA High Power Safety Code you will also find that they are now in compliance with NFPA 1127.

Bob

 

[luke strawwalker]

You seem to have gotten there by being angry and vicious and attacking everyone around you at every opportunity. I'm not sure why anyone - LPR or HPR - would want to come to your property?

If I've appeared to be "angry" or "vicious" in anyone's eyes, I apologize... That was not my intent. As for "attacking everyone" I don't see it... where have I ONCE called out anyone by name and verbally attacked them?? You won't find it my friend because I have not. Perhaps that is your perception and if it is I'm sorry but there is nothing I can do about that.

As for HPR, I've been around long enough to see what I've seen and read what I've read and know what I know... and come to conclusions based on those observations. I think the REAL problem here is that my conclusions about that activity is unsupportive or threatening to those who engage in that activity and therefore unpopular and make me "the bad guy". Oh well, I can't do anything about that either.

As for the club(S) that fly off my propert(IES), well, they don't seem to have a problem with me... In fact I think the majority of folks that I've dealt with in the clubs have thought I'm a pretty nice guy, and I haven't had any complaints... in fact I've been pulled in a time or two a little deeper than I'd like to be to sorta mediate some disputes or disagreements. I try to help anybody wherever I can... The subject of HPR on my families farm(S) has come up a few times in the past, and again recently when we started having launches from the second farm 100 miles west with joint operations between two clubs... and after discussing things with my parents who own the farms, and my own conclusions from what I've seen from various HPR events I've attended, as OPERATOR of the farms for my folks, the answer is UNEQUIVOCALLY NO!! I WILL NOT accept the liability HPR activities bring to the property. If that's a problem for some of the guys, so be it... they can go elsewhere, hate my guts, not come, whatever, I don't care... there are plenty of other venues they can go to and fly HPR... more power to them! BUT NOT HERE!
It never ceases to amaze me that folks that don't mind dropping hundreds or even thousands of dollars on HPR then complain when they have to drive 2-3 hours to go to a launching field capable of supporting their CHOSEN activities... and yes, I've had SEVERAL people complain and whine about this sort of thing to me... When I got back into rockets many years ago, I drove as much as 4 hours or more to just ATTEND (not fly at) some HPR launches and see what was new and exciting in rocketry myself... what I saw was interesting, but frankly appalling and dangerous at the same time. I've since done quite a bit of research and reading up on the subject and what I find convinced me that this is something I don't want to have anything to do with and don't want occurring on MY property. Others don't see a problem, enjoy it, enjoy spending money on it, etc... some people enjoy diving off a bridge with a glorified rubber band around their ankles or jumping out of a perfectly good airplane or spending $100,000 on cars, parts, trailers, equipment, fees, etc. to race top fuel dragsters... they're perfectly welcome to do those things as well, but I don't want them doing those things on MY property, either... (as if they could, but hopefully you get the point). I personally don't find anything interesting or heroic about such activities, but that's just me... if the other guy gets his jollies that way, so be it-- I don't care... BUT *I* don't care to support it. They can do whatever they want to do, but they can do it *somewhere else*.

If that makes me a 'bad guy' then so be it... Seems anybody that's not fawning over HPR and breaking in the bulkheads to get certified is some kind of "bad guy"... I'm not losing any sleep over it...

Later! OL JR

 

[NJRick]

I think I have learned more from Luke Strawalker's posts and build threads on rockets in general or rocketry than anywhere else. He has always been helpful with his knowledge and with his posts and always seems to find the time to make a kind remark regarding one of my builds.. I regard him as one of the great resources on this board (among many great builders that are here)

If I've appeared to be "angry" or "vicious" in anyone's eyes, I apologize... That was not my intent. As for "attacking everyone" I don't see it... where have I ONCE called out anyone by name and verbally attacked them?? You won't find it my friend because I have not. Perhaps that is your perception and if it is I'm sorry but there is nothing I can do about that.

As for HPR, I've been around long enough to see what I've seen and read what I've read and know what I know... and come to conclusions based on those observations. I think the REAL problem here is that my conclusions about that activity is unsupportive or threatening to those who engage in that activity and therefore unpopular and make me "the bad guy". Oh well, I can't do anything about that either.

As for the club(S) that fly off my propert(IES), well, they don't seem to have a problem with me... In fact I think the majority of folks that I've dealt with in the clubs have thought I'm a pretty nice guy, and I haven't had any complaints... in fact I've been pulled in a time or two a little deeper than I'd like to be to sorta mediate some disputes or disagreements. I try to help anybody wherever I can... The subject of HPR on my families farm(S) has come up a few times in the past, and again recently when we started having launches from the second farm 100 miles west with joint operations between two clubs... and after discussing things with my parents who own the farms, and my own conclusions from what I've seen from various HPR events I've attended, as OPERATOR of the farms for my folks, the answer is UNEQUIVOCALLY NO!! I WILL NOT accept the liability HPR activities bring to the property. If that's a problem for some of the guys, so be it... they can go elsewhere, hate my guts, not come, whatever, I don't care... there are plenty of other venues they can go to and fly HPR... more power to them! BUT NOT HERE!
It never ceases to amaze me that folks that don't mind dropping hundreds or even thousands of dollars on HPR then complain when they have to drive 2-3 hours to go to a launching field capable of supporting their CHOSEN activities... and yes, I've had SEVERAL people complain and whine about this sort of thing to me... When I got back into rockets many years ago, I drove as much as 4 hours or more to just ATTEND some HPR launches and see what was new and exciting in rocketry myself... what I saw was interesting, but frankly appalling and dangerous at the same time. I've since done quite a bit of research and reading up on the subject and what I find convinced me that this is something I don't want to have anything to do with and don't want occurring on MY property. Others don't see a problem, enjoy it, enjoy spending money on it, etc... some people enjoy diving off a bridge with a glorified rubber band around their ankles or jumping out of a perfectly good airplane or spending $100,000 on cars, parts, trailers, equipment, fees, etc. to race top fuel dragsters... they're perfectly welcome to do those things as well, but I don't want them doing those things on MY property, either... (as if they could, but hopefully you get the point). I personally don't find anything interesting or heroic about such activities, but that's just me... if the other guy gets his jollies that way, so be it-- I don't care... BUT *I* don't care to support it. They can do whatever they want to do, but they can do it *somewhere else*.

If that makes me a 'bad guy' then so be it... Seems anybody that's not fawning over HPR and breaking in the bulkheads to get certified is some kind of "bad guy"... I'm not losing any sleep over it...

Later! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

I'm not trying to pick fight or anything, but I think that's a little harsh... I personally have no reason to believe that Luke Strawwalker is angry or bitter towards HPR; just disagrees with how some of the regulations are structured.; I can see why he has a problem with rules that are "form over substance."
I have never seen a single one of his posts that was angry, vicious, or attacking anyone. Maybe there's something I'm not getting, but is seems like you guys are overreacting a little. Everyone has a right to their own opinions, but keep in mind that while everyone's opinion is valid, not every opinion needs to be heard every time.
I try to stay out of arguments in general, but I felt that this needed to be said. I've spoken my mind now, and will refrain from further comment on this issue.

Thank you... I DO try to help...

It was not my intention to inflame or start an argument. Whenever this subject comes up, though, that seems to be, for whatever reason, the end result. Why is that??

Why is it that anybody expressing an opinion CONTRARY to those of HPR supporters, no matter how carefully crouched or gently expressed, is INSTANTLY "attacking", "vicious", and "negative"??

Why is it that folks taking the "popular" opinion held by the "majority" is somehow instantly considered "right" and that anyone holding an opinion or position to the contrary is instantly "wrong" or "bad"??

Why is anyone who merely chooses, based on their own EXPERIENCE, NOT to support someone else in their chosen activities, whatever they might be, somehow instantly seen as "attacking" or "vicious" or "negative"??

We used to have an old saying... "ITS A FREE COUNTRY". Apparently not so anymore... guess nowdays the prevailing mindset has become "you're either with us or against us" and NOBODY is allowed to DARE disagree with the MAJORITY holding a certain position for ANY REASON without being some sort of "negative, vicious, threatening TRAITOR" or something...

Oh well, so be it... It's not like I haven't experienced that ATTITUDE from a lot of different people who disagree with me on this issue anyway (or any of a number of other issues for that matter, related or totally unrelated to rocketry... guess it's just human nature), and I'm CERTAIN that I will continue to see that same sort of attitude from the other side... "I'm right, you're wrong, you're just out to spoil my fun, so shut up and get out of the way so I can do whatever I want to do!" Yep, heard that one firsthand a LOT, expressed in a lot of different ways...

I'm not trying to BAN HPR... I'm not out to "get" anybody flying HPR... I don't particularly care one way or the other if someone flies HPR or doesn't fly HPR. I've seen enough FIRSTHAND that I simply do not want it on my property... and I don't care to participate in it, support it in any way, or attend launches where it's being flown. Every serious incident I've seen that could have turned out EXTREMELY badly had it not been for SHEER LUCK and the grace of God has been HPR related... Yes I know that there have been plenty of incidents with LPR/MPR rocketry too, including the child that was severely injured at the Scout meeting in N. Texas a couple or so years back... but when I see SEVERAL bad incidents at a SINGLE HPR launch, and at least ONE at virtually every HPR launch I've attended, read about pastures being burned off and neighboring crops very nearly burned as well, and rockets perforating people's back porch awnings offsite (and could easily have killed anyone who happened to be sitting under it at the time), people sitting a four wheeler getting severe burns when a HPR rocket takes off suddenly while layed down and flies BETWEEN them (which SURELY would have killed or extremely critically injured either one of them had they been hit directly-- and they were only INCHES away from being hit and weren't by sheer luck!), and ALL these incidents being the result of not following even THIER OWN rules governing such things... and I've seen plenty more besides these... that's enough for ME... Maybe some folks live with a death wish-- so be it, that's their right... "It's a free country" still for SOME of us...

BUT, "it's still a free country" and I can CHOOSE to say "not on my property!"... Go somewhere else, have fun, and I hope everything turns out okay... I really do!

Life's too short to argue guys... nobody is going to convince anybody else... that wasn't my intention either... but I DO feel like I have to defend myself here (why I'm not sure... nothing to defend IMHO... why is it now that having a DIFFERENT OPINION is some sort of "offense"... Geesh sometimes you'd think this was Nazi Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union when it comes to expressing a different opinion other than the "party line" in this country anymore... Sad, really... ) Maybe at the worst I'll end up in the "rocketry gulag"... LOL Still gotta be better than a day at work...

Let's just agree to disagree and move on, shall we... fly a rocket and have fun... even if you have to drive 2-3 hours to get to a waivered launch...

Later and best wishes to everyone! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

Usually, that's a good........ uh, "guideline".

In this case, the E9 and D12 are very much alike as far as igniting them. So if you figure you can reliably ignite four E9's, or four D12's, you can reliably ignite two D12's and two E9's.

Where it get messy is when clustering composite motors. But all-BP motors like these, similar (though not identical) in nozzle size and thrust, I think you'd be fine. I've done a model like that myself, all four motors lit fine and it flew really nicely.

Anyway, it'd be a good idea to do the first flight on four D12's anyway. Then try the two D12 and two E9 combo later.

- George Gassaway

Yep... clustering IS cool...

Clustering (small in my case) composites is would be ultra-cool, but I doubt I'd have the guts to try it myself... my hat's off to ya George!
Course you're the master anyway... you do TERRIFIC work!

Later! OL JR

 

[GregGleason]

Just for the record:

I have flown on OL JR's property once and hope to do so again. It was an enjoyable experience for me and my children. I think OL JR is a stand-up guy.

Greg

 

[AfterBurners]

Usually, that's a good........ uh, "guideline".

In this case, the E9 and D12 are very much alike as far as igniting them. So if you figure you can reliably ignite four E9's, or four D12's, you can reliably ignite two D12's and two E9's.

Where it get messy is when clustering composite motors. But all-BP motors like these, similar (though not identical) in nozzle size and thrust, I think you'd be fine. I've done a model like that myself, all four motors lit fine and it flew really nicely.

Anyway, it'd be a good idea to do the first flight on four D12's anyway. Then try the two D12 and two E9 combo later.

- George Gassaway

I agree George. I just want to make sure I get the rocket back. I'll be on a lake bed, but even then it can really drift. After spending so much time and effort it would be a shame to lose it. I'll post some pictures of the finished rocket. Thanks for the input

 

[DAllen]

If I've appeared to be "angry" or "vicious" in anyone's eyes, I apologize... That was not my intent. As for "attacking everyone" I don't see it... where have I ONCE called out anyone by name and verbally attacked them?? You won't find it my friend because I have not. Perhaps that is your perception and if it is I'm sorry but there is nothing I can do about that.

As for HPR, I've been around long enough to see what I've seen and read what I've read and know what I know... and come to conclusions based on those observations. I think the REAL problem here is that my conclusions about that activity is unsupportive or threatening to those who engage in that activity and therefore unpopular and make me "the bad guy". Oh well, I can't do anything about that either.

As for the club(S) that fly off my propert(IES), well, they don't seem to have a problem with me... In fact I think the majority of folks that I've dealt with in the clubs have thought I'm a pretty nice guy, and I haven't had any complaints... in fact I've been pulled in a time or two a little deeper than I'd like to be to sorta mediate some disputes or disagreements. I try to help anybody wherever I can... The subject of HPR on my families farm(S) has come up a few times in the past, and again recently when we started having launches from the second farm 100 miles west with joint operations between two clubs... and after discussing things with my parents who own the farms, and my own conclusions from what I've seen from various HPR events I've attended, as OPERATOR of the farms for my folks, the answer is UNEQUIVOCALLY NO!! I WILL NOT accept the liability HPR activities bring to the property. If that's a problem for some of the guys, so be it... they can go elsewhere, hate my guts, not come, whatever, I don't care... there are plenty of other venues they can go to and fly HPR... more power to them! BUT NOT HERE!
It never ceases to amaze me that folks that don't mind dropping hundreds or even thousands of dollars on HPR then complain when they have to drive 2-3 hours to go to a launching field capable of supporting their CHOSEN activities... and yes, I've had SEVERAL people complain and whine about this sort of thing to me... When I got back into rockets many years ago, I drove as much as 4 hours or more to just ATTEND (not fly at) some HPR launches and see what was new and exciting in rocketry myself... what I saw was interesting, but frankly appalling and dangerous at the same time. I've since done quite a bit of research and reading up on the subject and what I find convinced me that this is something I don't want to have anything to do with and don't want occurring on MY property. Others don't see a problem, enjoy it, enjoy spending money on it, etc... some people enjoy diving off a bridge with a glorified rubber band around their ankles or jumping out of a perfectly good airplane or spending $100,000 on cars, parts, trailers, equipment, fees, etc. to race top fuel dragsters... they're perfectly welcome to do those things as well, but I don't want them doing those things on MY property, either... (as if they could, but hopefully you get the point). I personally don't find anything interesting or heroic about such activities, but that's just me... if the other guy gets his jollies that way, so be it-- I don't care... BUT *I* don't care to support it. They can do whatever they want to do, but they can do it *somewhere else*.

If that makes me a 'bad guy' then so be it... Seems anybody that's not fawning over HPR and breaking in the bulkheads to get certified is some kind of "bad guy"... I'm not losing any sleep over it...

Later! OL JR

When you say things like, "typical HPR attitude" it comes across as bitter because you are lumping all of us HPR folk in one pigeon-hole. That's not being a straight shooter that's just disrespect.

 

[AfterBurners]

I always find Luke's posts informative and as polite as needed to get his point across. Seems his opinions have a solid foundation behind them and he is willing to listen to other people's ideas and opinions as well. Just because he disagrees doesn't make him a negative force. Most seem to throw their opinions around and then become insulted when we all don't just fall in line behind the new leader.

Sounds like a cool rocket Afterburner. BP clusters are great when they all light. Fire the 4 D12's then 2D12's and 2E9's and then.........:wink:

The possibilities are endless Should be fun guys. Should I throw a picture up of it?

 

[AfterBurners]

JR aka Luke Strawalker is a great contributor to this forum. He offers a lot of great advice and does so in a way in which is easy to understand and grab. I know that I have used many of his techniques in my builds and they have turned out nicely. He is also a fine model rocket builder and writer as in he's very good at his documentation and we should be thankful that people like JR are willing to share his techniques with us.

If JR has land that he is willing to share with other in the LPR and MPR's realm so be it. That's his choice and his decision. If you get into HPR and built some big rockets, then it kind of goes hand and hand that chances are you will have to drive a distance to launch them. It goes with the territory. It's no different than someone wanting to launch a MPR rocket on a "G" motor at some local school play ground. You have to find the right location for the rocket.

I think everyone should cool their jets and chill. It's pointless to drag this out. Bottom line just have fun with what you are doing and exercise common sense and safe procedures, this way everyone's safe and no one gets hurt.

Just my :2:

 

[luke strawwalker]

When you say things like, "typical HPR attitude" it comes across as bitter because you are lumping all of us HPR folk in one pigeon-hole. That's not being a straight shooter that's just disrespect.

Well, I wouldn't say that if I hadn't experienced it from SO MANY different HPR folks... NOT everybody, but then I didn't SAY 'everybody' did I?? I said it was a typical attitude, which I HAVE seen from many people myself in my own experiences...

If you take it as disrespectful, oh well... that's your opinion... isn't meant that way...

Later! OL JR

 

[RadManCF]

Luke has never been afraid to state his opinion. He is a straight shooter and knowledgeable, and is a valuable contributor to this forum. We don't all have to agree with each other all the time, but we should never be afraid to listen to all points of view.

There is virtually no difference in the launch procedures between NAR and TRA, just a difference in how they are presented.

For background information, you should know that any civilian rocket launch, regardless of the source, except for FAA Class 1 model rockets, are forbidden within the controlled airspace of the US without written permission from the FAA. High Power Rockets, formally specified in the CFRs as Class 2 and 3 rockets, may be launched if the launchers have received a written wavier to do so from the FAA. The conditions for the waiver are listed in the Part 101 regulations for amateur rockets.

NAR and TRA exist today to assist the hobby rocket community in launching rockets. One important requirement of the FAA is that the launcher obtains the permission of the landowner, and NAR and TRA assist the hobbyist by providing inexpensive insurance to protect the landowner in case their is a claim against them if the launch goes bad. The insurance industry's underwriting requirements for insurance coverage is formalized in NFPA 1127, the Code for High Power Rockets that was developed jointly by NAR, TRA and the NFPA, and is expansion of NFPA 1122, the code for Model Rocketry developed jointly by NAR and NFPA.

The complete unabridged Safety and Procedures Code for both NAR and TRA is the CFR Part 101, all local codes and NFPA 1127. Both organizations require their high power launchers to know and understand NFPA 1127 as part of the written L2 test regardless whether it is in their Official High Hower Safety Code or not. The new Official TRA High Power Safety code is written like NFPA 1127 from which it is derived and duplicates most of the 1127 code elements. NAR has chosen to simplify the written NAR High Power Safety C into a simple short generalized document that is much easier to understand for those attending a launch.

If you go the the NAR website, you will find other documents that specifically refer to NFPA 1127 such as the RSO training guide and the Launch Safe Report that analyzed launch safety and was instrumental in changing the last 2 revisions of NFPA 1127. These documents outline the launch procedures that are followed at organized NAR launches. If you reat them in detail you will find they are totally in compliance with Federal regulation and NFPA 1127. If you read the TRA High Power Safety Code you will also find that they are now in compliance with NFPA 1127.

Bob

I feel that in some cases, the difference in presentation could be useful. TRA seems to be more upfront about defining the role of RSO, whereas with NAR, I've had to dig a bit deeper. I worry that a "where is that written" type dispute could arise under the NAR safetey code. While I havn't met any of them in rocketry, there are plenty of unreasonable people in the world. IMO, the area in which this would be range discipline. To me, it seems that we rely too heavily on unwritten rules, for example not running or lying down on the range.
To some extent, my preference for the TRA code stems from my backgroud in construction. The TRA code, to me at least, reads somewhat like the OSHA codes, which makes me more comfortable.
Also, I had mentioned that I was curious about RRS's safety codes. Are you familiar with them? I've poked around their website a bit but I haven't been able to find anything.
Also, FWW, I have read part 101 of the FARs and NFPA 1127. I feel it would be nice if the NAR safety code contained direct references to them, something like, "This code is drafted in accordance with FAR part 101 and NFPA 1122/1127". In my opinion, this could head off the "but that's just somthing some club made up"type arguments.