N5800 family

Discussion in 'Propulsion' started by watermelonman, Oct 13, 2015.

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  1. Oct 13, 2015 #1

    watermelonman

    watermelonman

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    Someone once told me of the N5800, there were three motors they put in that category of testosterone and force. I imagine the other two were also Cesaroni 98mm6XL, as Aerotech stops at 98/15360 for now. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Maybe the imax and the blue or red?

    Not that I am flying any of these any time soon, but I like to know what is out there. I keep hoping for a higher N5800 altitude record, too.
     
  2. Oct 13, 2015 #2

    Coop

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    N5800 is a C* motor. It's a beast. To fly this ridiculous motor in a minimum-diameter was an impressive goal that few have successfully accomplished. It's torn some fantastic rockets apart. Look around, you'll find some fantastic and heartwrenching videos.

    There is an O3400 Imax, Which is something like a 3% O. While it doesn't have the thrust of the 5800, it's no slouch by any stretch. I got to see one of these at a Red Glare, and it. Was. Awesome.

    The other big scary is the N 5600. This is in the 98mm 6G White Thunder. Shorter burn time than the N5800 by about a second and is the white propellant rather than the C*, but man... it's a ripping motor.

    I've only seen them flown, never got anywhere near that level of power.


    Later!

    --Coop
     
  3. Oct 13, 2015 #3

    TRFfan

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    Probably the N4800T (Aerotech RMS 98/18000 Blue Thunder), the N3301 (CTI Pro98 6GXL White), and the O3400 (CTI Pro98 6GXL IMax)
     
  4. Oct 13, 2015 #4

    blackbrandt

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    What makes the N5800 so bad? What makes it any worse than say, an N10K?
     
  5. Oct 13, 2015 #5

    rcktnut

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    I guess it is was just the challenge to fly it in a minimum dia. rocket.
     
  6. Oct 13, 2015 #6

    COrocket

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    N5800 has comparatively high thrust, impulse (besides O3400), and ISP compared to the other motors mentioned. It isn't the acceleration that is a problem it's the forces encountered when going Mach 3+. The N10,000 only has about half the impulse of a N5800 so if you do the sims the N5800 goes way faster/higher.
     
  7. Oct 13, 2015 #7

    Zebedee

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    Max velocity is much higher for the N5800 since it has twice the Ns. E.g. In a reasonably non-draggy MD rocket (lets say 12lb with no motor) N10000 = M2.4 & N5800 = M3.4

    There's also the blip in the burn that several folk have noticed around 2.4 seconds - can make marginal rockets go unstable at high mach...
     
  8. Oct 13, 2015 #8

    prophecy

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    Hey Eric,

    It's hard to quantify an overtly qualitative assessment, but generally ISP is the technical translation of "testosterone." CStar is the most efficient hobby propellant out there, simply due to its chemistry, so by "N5800 family" I assumed you meant all C* motors before reading your post. First off, Aerotech doesn't make an aluminized propellant, so it'll be nothing they offer, though I've heard they're working on a market comp to C* as a result of C*'s popularity (commercial flyers' interests have shifted from 400psi effects motors, it seems).

    Even in the world of fuzzy translation between qualitative and quantitative, a red motor will never be confused with "testosterone and force." While one specific Sr additive is an oxidizer (moderators...I'll avoid naming any specific compounds to try and answer a question about motors without talking about chemistry...sigh) it's hygroscopic which makes for poor shelf life, so most commercial red motors use a specific inert Sr compound to get the red and Mag (for brighter colors, but not nearly the ISP of Aluminum). Hence why most red motors are slow, run at a lower pressure despite a generally higher Kn, and deliver lower performance than all other motors of their size except for a sparky.

    Commercially available blue motors are almost all low metals (you can tell because they all have very little smoke) and most use Mag, again, to brighten the blue flame. The blue comes from a Copper compound which is a catalyst, making the motor burn fast, which I guess could be translated as "force..." but most will still have a mediocre ISP due to the low metals.

    White Thunder uses an Iron compound as a catalyst, that's why it cranks. But it doesn't come close to C* in terms of delivered impulse. The N10,000 is like a sparky or a red motor - it's an effects motor, not a performance motor. Matt, that's why it'll never shred a rocket - shreds are generally caused by aero heating and fin flutter, which are both functions velocity, not acceleration. The N10,000 leads to high acceleration, but a low total velocity due to the short burn time.

    The O3400 (and IMax motors in general) are designed for impulse, not thrust - it's a slower burning compound allowing for tighter cores and a higher volume loading. Good if you want to go high, though the particular additive they use to spike the ISP of the propellant is pretty dense, so the mass fraction is lower than the N5800.

    With all your questions about commercial motors, I give you a year before you cross over to the dark side...catches up to everyone with your level of curiosity, eventually.

    SH
     
  9. Oct 13, 2015 #9

    markkoelsch

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    Thrust combined with burn time. Makes minimum d rockets truly haul ass to the point of making many come apart.
     
  10. Oct 13, 2015 #10

    SpaceManMat

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    It's also wrecked more than its fair share of rockets that were not minimum diameter. Last month the current N record holder who previously had tamed the N5800 decided he would give the motor a shot in one of his lesser rockets that had flown a number of times on Os and NSAIDs. Here's the result

    [youtube]7t3WqdQly-g[/youtube]
     
  11. Oct 14, 2015 #11

    RocketflierVB

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    Not mine...Saw on You Tube...

     
  12. Oct 14, 2015 #12

    Zebedee

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    Yeah if you make an MD rocket heavy enough that even an N5800 only makes it go M2.5 then you have a good chance of surviving.
     
  13. Oct 14, 2015 #13

    Coop

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    "Oh, the humanity!"

    I laughed at that outburst perhaps a bit more than I should. But this is a N5800 video: rocket gets about three seconds of life, then makes an abrupt turn and sheds vital structural components. Sorry to see it claim another victim.


    Later!

    --Coop
     
  14. Oct 14, 2015 #14

    AlnessW

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    Yeah Steve, I'd give Eric a year as well before venturing off to the dark side. ;) He was "intrigued" by my BALLS motors and then the subsequent write-up!

    That's Skippy's flight!

    An N10,000 just seems silly to me - burns for like, what 0.5 seconds?
     
  15. Oct 14, 2015 #15

    MClark

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    The N10000 I think of as an M+. It does have a place by using it on a big heavy rocket and a low waiver or as a booster on a multi stage.
    It is like the H999, people said why, but it is great under a short waiver.

    M
     
  16. Oct 14, 2015 #16

    T34zac

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    I800 is also good for that. Gets the big ones up for less money on smaller waivers.
     
  17. Oct 14, 2015 #17

    SpaceManMat

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    That's what you have friends for! Nic makes some pretty fine rockets so I guess one has to make the most of such moments;)
    i missed out that day due to work though:facepalm:
     
  18. Oct 20, 2015 #18

    watermelonman

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    It must be the O3400 and N5600 if they are famous for shredding rockets, and I must have been overlooking the N5600 because it is the plain 6G while I was staring at the 6XL charts. Thanks!
     
  19. Oct 20, 2015 #19

    watermelonman

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    Sorry, several times now I have written what was crystal clear in my head but reading back about as clear as mud. By testosterone I mostly meant personality wise, for the flyer as well as the flight. Definitely subjective, but closely related to shredded airframes.

    That is a fascinating explanation of different style additives and catalysts. Hah, if you keep giving me information like this, it may be more like a month instead of a year before I cross over! Thanks, I appreciate it.
     
  20. Oct 21, 2015 #20

    ksaves2

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    There was the N5800 drag race at Midwest Power in 2011:



    The sound on the video doesn't do justice to being there. The decibels of those rockets going off were ear piercing to say the least. Probably the loudest I'll ever hear at a launch. Kurt Savegnago
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
  21. Oct 22, 2015 #21

    gerbs4me

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    I've seen some N5800 flights, none MD. That is one heck of a motor. Maybe one day I'll use one. :)
     

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