My rocket is too dangerous. Where can I launch?

[Onebadhawk]

I don't think the op is a new member at all...

I think he's an old timer....

Teddy

 

[DavidMcCann]

Bottom line: the RSO is the final authority on what gets to launch. The RSO may be right or wrong; he may understand the rules perfectly or imperfectly; but he still makes the call. There may be a rocket that meets all of NAR safety rules that, for whatever reason, the RSO won't approve. There is no one over his head to whom you can appeal. Likewise, an unsafe rocket might get the okay. But the RSO wins.

technically speaking a launch director can override an RSO

 

[wighty44]

IMO the NAR safety codes are based on regulatory documents such as 14CFR101. More importantly, the NAR states this in their “Trained Safety Officer Program” (available online) - “This guidance is based on experience, regulatory documents (e.g. FAA FAR Part 101), and codified practices (e.g. NFPA 1127). Note that regulatory or codified practices shall supersede guidance in this document if conflicts occur.”

Furthermore, the TSO program documents frequently refers to FAR Part 101. In the “Safety Check-In Officer Guidelines” section, Item A4, states, “Does the model fall within the FAA limitations? Within the sport rocketry hobby the FAA recognizes two classes of rockets.”

The above quotes are not my words, anecdotes, or 17 years of experience. In fact they are directly from the NAR…

So, from this RSO, if all that is in question are a couple of small metal screws holding the AV bay to the payload tube, the rocket would be allowed to fly at a BARC launch… YMMV

 

[DavidMcCann]

I don't think the OP is a troll..... Just someone who got shut down, and did not get a clear explanation from the RSO.

I'm guessing the no launch call goes way beyond screws.

 

[bobkrech]

technically speaking a launch director can override an RSO

Not quite. The LD and/or the RSO can stop any launch activity, but the LD can not override a negative decision of the RSO.

"The Range Safety Officer (RSO, and Launch Director (LD) have the final authority for the interpretation and application of the code." from https://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Documents/Safety Code/High Power Safety Code - May 2016.pdf

The LD handles the assignment/delegation of subordinate role responsibilities (e.g. RSO). If the Launch Director chooses to not assign/delegate a particular role to someone else, then the LD shall assume those responsibilities onto themselves. Note: if the LD assumes the role of RSO, then the LD must be certified Level 2 or higher. Most often, the LD and the RSO have a very tight relationship and either one can shut down the range for any reason (e.g. Safety, weather, change in AHJ approval, etc.)

The role of the Range Safety Officer (RSO) is to minimize the risks to personnel and property involved in the handling, preparation, and launch operations of model and high power rocket launches. This role is can be assigned/delegated by the Launch Director to a very experienced member since the RSO’s role encompasses all aspect of running a safe launch.

The RSO is responsible for assuring that the Tripoli Safety Codes and RSO procedures are not violated during operations and to ensure that acceptable risks are understood and are within reasonable limits. https://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Documents/Safety Code/Range Safety Guidelines v1.3.pdf

 

[DavidMcCann]

Not quite. The LD and/or the RSO can stop any launch activity, but the LD can not override a negative decision of the RSO.

All true, and I doubt it would happen often. I have seen event rules that allowed appeals to the LD or others. Mostly I'm referring to the volunteer RSO's at large events. Our LD usually acts as RSO at small launches.

At any rate though, the LD could relieve an RSO, act as rso and approve a flight, then either reinstate the so or appoint another. So in effect he can't make an RSO sign a card, but the final word is the LD, not the RSO. ( one could also argue the LD is an assigned position too...but that varies by who etc.)

obviously, even a sympathetic LD would hesitate to do anything... but its possible. I'm not saying the RSO has no authority... But if there were a disagreement, the LD has options to let a rocket fly, as the RSO has no blackball power. A rocket could get denied by one RSO....shifts change and without changes be let flown by another RSO.

 

[georgegassaway]

Bottom line: the RSO is the final authority on what gets to launch. The RSO may be right or wrong; he may understand the rules perfectly or imperfectly; but he still makes the call. There may be a rocket that meets all of NAR safety rules that, for whatever reason, the RSO won't approve. There is no one over his head to whom you can appeal. Likewise, an unsafe rocket might get the okay. But the RSO wins.

Actually, when it comes to interpreting the Safety Code, the ultimate authority is the NAR Board, NOT an RSO. Now in the middle of a launch, there's no recourse. But after such a question comes up from a launch, the issue can be brought to the NAR board, or NAR president, to determine if the interpretation was correct or not, for the future.

Now, if an RSO would have the attitude of "I don't CARE what the NAR says", while using the NAR safety code as the reason for their decision, that would be a bigger issue beyond whatever the code or rules are. And tending to be one that as a flier I would avoid attending. But I do not think that is the case here.

- George Gassaway

 

[DavidMcCann]

Actually, when it comes to interpreting the Safety Code, the ultimate authority is the NAR Board, NOT an RSO. Now in the middle of a launch, there's no recourse. But after such a question comes up from a launch, the issue can be brought to the NAR board, or NAR president, to determine if the interpretation was correct or not, for the future.

Now, if an RSO would have the attitude of "I don't CARE what the NAR says", while using the NAR safety code as the reason for their decision, that would be a bigger issue beyond whatever the code or rules are. And tending to be one that as a flier I would avoid attending. But I do not think that is the case here.

while i agree with the board can interpret the code, each club can also have its own rules, and each RSO their own view of whats safe. So the board can interpret all day, but the final launch authority will always be local.

Now, i doubt any denial of a launch is ever firm.... a protest from a flier would likely result in a discussion among the RSO, LD, Prefect, club leadership present, etc. in the end though, It does rest with whoever is still actively the RSO at the end of that discussion....( i think i see your point here now Bob)

 

[grouch]

The OP tossed a grenade and stepped back. He is probably reading this crap and laughing his ass off.

 

[Onebadhawk]

The OP tossed a grenade and stepped back. He is probably reading this crap and laughing his ass off.

110%.....
I do not doubt this even for a second...
I was surprised when Dave M gave him the benefit of the doubt,,
but it's too long now without another post...

I personally would like to thank him and all of you for the entertainment value in this thread,,,
It has genuinely been a fun read,,, lol...

Teddy

 

[Onebadhawk]

The OP tossed a grenade and stepped back. He is probably reading this crap and laughing his ass off.

Hey,,
You promised you'd find your way back up hear for a launch....

Well....

Teddy

 

[michigander]

This is like a Yahoo no pictures

 

[DavidMcCann]

110%.....
I do not doubt this even for a second...
I was surprised when Dave M gave him the benefit of the doubt,,
but it's too long now without another post...

first post was at 9:07 am. Believe it or not... normal people don't check the forum 320 times a day. And if he's some kid in HS/college... likely in classes all day.

He'll see the insane argument here and swear off forums forever. His lack of familiarity with forums (from thread placement to lack of a photo, good details) further points to someone who was frustrated and looking for a place to vent. wouldn't be shocked if this turned up on NAR FB as well.

 

[shreadvector]

I'm assuming this is a troll. BUT, since everyone is answering anyway....

Perhaps this was an Av Bay built as if it was a High Power Rocket (HPR) or an Amateur Rocket (AR) - using long all-thread rods.

If so, this would not be allowed in a Model Rocket. It could be allowed in HPR or AR.

https://rocketgirls.eng.ua.edu/Rocket - Avionics.htm

There are many other examples online.

The club RSO said I cannot launch my rocket. It uses 3 metal screws to hold in the electronics bay. A clear violation of the NAR guidelines?!? Anyway, is there anywhere in the US I can launch?

 

[blackbrandt]

first post was at 9:07 am. Believe it or not... normal people don't check the forum 320 times a day. And if he's some kid in HS/college... likely in classes all day.

Well.... some HS students DO in fact check the forum 320 times a day.

 

[Onebadhawk]

first post was at 9:07 am. Believe it or not... normal people don't check the forum 320 times a day. And if he's some kid in HS/college... likely in classes all day.

He'll see the insane argument here and swear off forums forever. His lack of familiarity with forums (from thread placement to lack of a photo, good details) further points to someone who was frustrated and looking for a place to vent. wouldn't be shocked if this turned up on NAR FB as well.

hahahahaha,,
OK,,
I am impressed as always Dave,,
you really looked into it more then I did..
But I'm still not a believer,, lol...

Teddy

 

[crossfire]

Just use some plastic rivits and leave out the metal screws. Don't over ride the RSO, If you do he will never see him as a RSO again. This is a grey area in the safety code.

 

[grouch]

Hey,,
You promised you'd find your way back up hear for a launch....

Well....

Teddy

My time on Earth is not up yet. I will get back that way to fly. Lu and I were up last week for a quick 5 days but didn't get to do anything fun. I will plan on another METRA launch for sure. Might have to leave a beater rocket at my father in laws just for that purpose!

 

[blackbrandt]

first post was at 9:07 am. Believe it or not... normal people don't check the forum 320 times a day. And if he's some kid in HS/college... likely in classes all day.

Well.... some HS students DO in fact check the forum 320 times a day.

 

[o1d_dude]

More like a bunch of people arguing with a Troll.

This.

 

[rharshberger]

This.

While OP may or may not have been trolling, a member of the forum definitely was and his initials are not DM. 😀

 

[DavidMcCann]

Well.... some HS students DO in fact check the forum 320 times a day.

[FREE] doesn't last long..... good point.

 

[rharshberger]

Well.... some HS students DO in fact check the forum 320 times a day.

[FREE] doesn't last long..... good point.

ZING!

 

[H_Rocket]

Actually nobody is arguing with the troll (if that's what they are). Everyone is arguing with each other...

 

[Zonie]

The "Palestine" comment was funny. At least we're not talking about bowling balls...:wink:

 

[Frederocket]

Your RSO is strictly enforcing NAR Code:

https://www.nar.org/safety-information/model-rocket-safety-code/

If you want to launch at a NAR sanctioned event, then you follow NAR rules.

Tripoli Safety Code is crafted around NFPA 1127. Although NFPA compliance is voluntary, Tripoli have adopted it as organizational safety code. Below is a breakdown of materials use as Tripoli deems acceptable based on NFPA 1127 guidelines:

https://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Documents/Safety Code/Metal in Rocket Construction v2.0.pdf

I believe Tripoli events allow NAR certified fliers to attend (and vice-versa) but I do not know about inter-organizational insurance. Maybe you'll have to sign a waiver or something, idk.

Almost all of my High Power rockets, with AV bays use METAL screws to secure them to the airframe. I have never been challenged at any NAR launch... Someone is full of it...

 

[grouch]

Just about every rocket I know of has metal eyelets on the recovery train somewhere. The real crazy guys use quick links too. The OP probably has some jacked up looking rocket that looks like it's held together with bailing wire and bubblegum. Who knows??

 

[CORZERO]

Corzero, what is your interpretation of "no substantial metal parts"?

No U 235

 

[shreadvector]

And no Illudium Q-36.

 

[CORZERO]

Objection! Badgering the witness!

Sustained!