My New Jag

[daveyfire]

Not the car, unfortunately, but a Binder Design kit instead. It's pretty close to stock (for me, at least ), with a wrap of 6 oz glass on all the tubes and a foamed fin can. I also added a full-length altimeter board to the center section to make the vehicle dual deploy. I'm going to fly it first this weekend on an I260 black smokey load, I130 C-slot load, or an AT I161W. I can't decide which, what do you guys think?

BTW, no decals on the vehicle yet in this pic... the paint is still drying!

 

[daveyfire]

Here's a shot of the fins... I love how shiny the paint came out, sometimes it doesn't and instead, it blushes terribly (we live near the coast, so it's pretty moist all the time). The weave of the glass was filled with Smooth Prime and the fillets were done with the spoon trick I keep talking about.

 

[DPatell]

I'd say I130 C-Slot, send it way up there. Don't skimp on the motor, it would like a nice J1000 or J570W

 

[Ryan S.]

Kosdon Fast....Kosdon Fast!!!

 

[firemanup]

Davey,

You have the 38 motor tube in there..??

What's your end weight with everything but the motor..???

Mine did it's shakedown on an I211 for a nice flight.. will fly this weekend on either a I284 or J350.. haven't decided yet.. but mine's minus the glass..

Mine everything but the motor, (altimeter, chutes, recovery harnesses, motor retention, etc.) comes in at 50 oz..

By the way it looks great...

 

[fyrechaser]

Very nice looking bird! Love that color!

Good luck...

Jim B.
Odessa Tx
NAR 83161 - L1

 

[LMazza]

Very nice Daveyfire. I also say the I130 for a nice high, long burn flight. Same as Firmanup I'd like to know your final weight.

I'm working away hard on mine to get it done for this weekend. Added an alt-bay and 6oz glass on the tubes with a 2oz sanding veil. The fins will get the same treatment tip to tip. (call me paranoid) Anyway, more on that later....Again, great job man.

 

[rocwizard]

mmmm, shiny!

lets go for a nice 130 this weekend, then someday we'll try to burn the paint off with a J2000. mwhahahaha

Sorry, i couldn't help myself, looks great. i can't wait to see it!

 

[daveyfire]

OK, decals added!

It weighs 52 oz. with recovery system but no electronics and motor.

And an I130 seems to be the resounding decision on motor selection too. I guess that's what we'll fly with! Sims are showing we should just touch 5000 ft. with max velocity of 640 ft/sec... not too bad

 

[daveyfire]

I hate it when I forget the attachment.

 

[g_boxwood]

Marvelous job David ! Now that's a sleek design... are you goin' to cone it ? I love long-burners... That should be a pretty nice flight indeed and please post pictures !

 

[daveyfire]

Originally posted by g_boxwood
are you goin' to cone it ?

Oh be quiet!

We'll see how she flies!

 

[firemanup]

How'd she do...?????????

Put mine up on an I284.. she bent right over in the middle of the middle section... have no idea what happened.. but she's pretty much R.I.P. right now, can save the fin can and the nosecone but that's it..

Had her looked over before and after flight and no one seems to think that should have happened or that there were any build problems..

All we can think of is the middle section just had some kind of weakness to it or was damaged somehow..

Straight as an arrow flight till right about motor burn out then she just bent over and came apart...

 

[daveyfire]

Well I flew her yesterday! Onboard was an I130 C-slot and an RRC²X unit to control dual deploy. She lifted off nice and straight and did a little bit of coning (yes, in fact, it was coning!) on the way to 4617 feet, about what RockSim predicted. Dual deploy on the way down was perfect, and she came back with just a small scratch on the tip of the nose cone (could never get the paint to stick to those very well!). I'll fly her again in the future, but it sounds like I284Ws are out That's too bad about the shred, firemanup, but I must say it's the only honorable death for a rocket!

Here's a liftoff pic.

 

[Donaldsrockets]

Sorry about the failure. That looked like a beautiful bird from the pics on your website.

I would have thought that it would have been able to take the I284W with no problem since they claim it can fly on K's if you have the 54mm version.

I could tell from your pics that I don't believe you made a mistake in your build but maybe a freak accident that will hopefully never happen again.

I hope that it is fixable and you'll be able to fly it again someday.

 

[firemanup]

Geeeeez what are you guys doing up in the middle of the night after a launch weekend...

Ok, ok i know goin over the weekends events and pics.. well here's some pics.. one of the few flights i missed a liftoff pic on but here's one on the pad ready to go with my ugly mug next to it...

 

[firemanup]

Here's one of the left overs...

You can follow it up from the bottom and see the booster section which ended up in two after it was all said and done..then above that is the 17" section of body tube that started it all and you can see how it bent right in the middle, above that is a four inch section that had the electronics in it... it's all still together fine and the RRC2 was undamaged.. and above that is the top section and you can see the 12" zipper down through that..

Donald,

The 54 version is reinforced the entire length of the body with couplers... so it's basically double walled the entire length.. so i'm sure that helps some..but we still didn't expect this with this rocket/motor combo...glad i didn't go with the J350 i was considering...

 

[daveyfire]

Hey, with a J350W it woulda been an even cooler shred!

Sorry about that shred, Jason. That rocket was too pretty. I guess that's why the rocket gods wanted it! Why do they never take the ugly ones anyway?

How thin was the tubing on yours? My tubing was incredibly thin, so much in fact that the nose cone overhung the edge of the tube. With the glass wrap it matches up perfectly now. I'm curious if this was just a fluke from a pre-Mike Fisher kit or if this is the way the kit is...

 

[firemanup]

I dunno seems kind of thin, it does match up with the outside of the nosecone though....this kit was direct from the Binder website a couple months ago..

I don't have calipers or anything to measure with but it "seems" to be thinner walled than my Aero Tech body tubes...

 

[LMazza]

Sorry to hear about your flight Jason. On mine with glass the tubes seriously overlapped so that i had to build up the nose cone. I assume that they matched up well without the glass.

Dave, sounds like an awesome flight. Guess it was a big weekend for Jaguars. Mine flew for the first time on Sunday on an I161 with dual deploy recovery on an AltAcc. The plan was to try it on an I211 but winds prevented this. Anyway, long story short, nice boost with a little bit of coning to 2076 ft. Drogue popped at apogee and the nose let loose, deploying the main as well. At 600ft I saw a puff so I was assured that the Blacksky is fine.

When cleaning out the motor I found that the nozzle was severely eroded explaining the somewhat less than expected altitude. According to the data the burn time was only 1.6 seconds as opposed to the 2.0s on thrustcurve.org or 2.3s according to rocksim.

Overall, I was happy with the flight which was my first use of dual deployment and an altimeter.

 

[LMazza]

What's that? You want pics? Sorry, none of the flight but I here is a pic of the completed rocket. All tubes and fins got 6oz glass with 2oz over that. Should take some L2 motors just fine.

 

[firemanup]

Looks good Luke,

Did you build the electronics into one of the 17" sections of body tube..??

Mine did ok stock no glass on an I211, just a little wobble at burnout..

I've talked to Mike at Binder Design and he's working with me and we'll get the Jaguar rebuilt... he's been a pleasure to deal with....

 

[DPatell]

Luke-

That was a great flight man! Glad I was there to see it.

More apologies on the nose fit, lol. You nailed everything else. Truely cool!

 

[daveyfire]

WTG Luke! Dual deploy flights are always the most exciting...

Get nervous for motor problems or shred.

Liftoff/burnout.

Get nervous for drogue chute.

Drogue chute appearance.

Get nervous for main chute.

Get really nervous when it looks like it's too low for the main to deploy.

Main chute appearance.

Much rejoicing.

 

[DPatell]

the main deployed at apogee, and it was my fault. I had him take off a layer of masking tape because the cone was REALLY snug...and it popped early. That little bit of tape may have saved him a walk...


Shear pins Luke, shear pins

 

[LMazza]

It might have saved me a walk but lucky for me a local on an ATV found it first! Gotta love beepers.

Jason, instead of building the electronics into one of the stock sections I built a typical coupler/avionics bay with threaded rod to hold it all together. For ejection wells I used 1/2" pvc couplers. This system seemed to work pretty well. Glad to hear everything is being worked out with Mike!

 

[firemanup]

Ok,

I bought the avionics bay from Binder.. sounds similar.. two pieces of allthread.. and i just use baggies to make ejection charges.. i like em under the apogee deployment system..

 

[Justin Horne]

Hey all. This is my first post here.

I just received a Binder Jaguar Extreme. Very nice kit, and I enjoyed the pictures of what I hope mine can live up to! I do have some questions though:

First: How much glass should I put on? Keep in mind this kit will be both first glassing try and dual deployment... I want this kit to handle anything i'd like to put in it, yet still fly well on mid power I's, on which it will spend most of it's time above.

Secondly: I don't like the idea of having motor eject for the drogue anyway, so the fin can will be built zipper-less. I know this may be redundant with dual recov., but I am just getting rid of failures. My question comes for the altimeter bay. I know I will need one.. I have seen many bays, including binder's. Do you recommend one in particular? I will almost certainly be using the missile-works rrc2 (very long.) However, it's not been bought, and I could go for the shorter X version. Also, how do I thread through the igniter wires and still maintain a seal of gasses? Do the kit bays do this?

Third: the rocket kit flexes! This may be the cause of the shred mentioned earlier in this thread. When I piece together the rocket (not even started on), it is very wobbly. The tip mover at least 1.5 inches off center! I'm assuming this is due to all the coupled areas. They seem tight at first, but not when assembled. Any solutions here?


Fourth, and last (I SWEAR!): How do I strengthen the fin can? I am used to doing 6 epoxy fillets per fin, every fin. With the 54mm MM in a 2.6 inch tube, there is barely any room. How do I strengthen the fin can?! I am thinking maybe fiberglass strips outside of body tube that are fin>OD of tube. I have also been told I could build the fin can outside of body tube and possible put glass strips from fin>motor mount.

For those who have built this thing strong, how did you do it?

Thanks for reading so much. I just want this kit to work perfectly. All help would be appreciated..

Thanks again,
Justin Horne

 

[LMazza]

Justin, glad to have you on board with TRF!

How much glass should I put on?

In answering this question I assume you are planning on flying the large 54mm motors like K's. Since I built mine with the stock 38mm mount and plan on flying it on the largest of these motors (in the case of AT, J570), I decided to use one layer of 6oz glass with 2oz over that for sanding smooth. In your case if you are flying larger motors you might want to consider another layer of heavy glass for added security.

I don't like the idea of having motor eject for the drogue anyway, so the fin can will be built zipper-less. I know this may be redundant with dual recov., but I am just getting rid of failures. My question comes for the altimeter bay. I know I will need one.. I have seen many bays, including binder's. Do you recommend one in particular? I will almost certainly be using the missile-works rrc2 (very long.) However, it's not been bought, and I could go for the shorter X version. Also, how do I thread through the igniter wires and still maintain a seal of gasses? Do the kit bays do this?

I built mine zipperless just like your are talking about. The kit from Binder is fine, should house the rrc2 just fine, and is one of the few if only 2.6" avionics bays you can buy. As for sealing the wires, you can simply drill a hole in the bulkhead and feed the wires through this, sealing it off with modeling clay. Or you can do as I did and install permanent wires through the bulkhead and attach them to terminals on the outside. This way you can just hook up the ematches without having access to the inside and not worry about leaking.

the rocket kit flexes! This may be the cause of the shred mentioned earlier in this thread. When I piece together the rocket (not even started on), it is very wobbly. The tip mover at least 1.5 inches off center! I'm assuming this is due to all the coupled areas. They seem tight at first, but not when assembled. Any solutions here?

If your couplers fit nice once everything is epoxied together there shouldn't be much flexing at all. If you use fiberglass it shouldn't flex at all. My nose cone was very loose and I have to add a lot of tape to get it to where it needed to be.

How do I strengthen the fin can? I am used to doing 6 epoxy fillets per fin, every fin. With the 54mm MM in a 2.6 inch tube, there is barely any room. How do I strengthen the fin can?! I am thinking maybe fiberglass strips outside of body tube that are fin>OD of tube. I have also been told I could build the fin can outside of body tube and possible put glass strips from fin>motor mount.

I would do exactly that. Build the fin can outside the body tube (which has slots all the way to the end) and use small fillets and fiberglass from fin tip to fin tip. Now that you have the fin can as strong as you want it you can simply slide it into the body tube. If you are worried about not having room for internal fillets you could always pour some expanding foam in there to hold it all together. I did all that minus the foam because I had room for the size fillets I wanted.

Great questions. Hope I answered them all!

 

[Justin Horne]

Yep, you sure did. The idea for the terminal blocks is great, and i'll certainly do that. Thanks!

Justin Horne