# My first HPR!

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#### avets8

##### Well-Known Member
So, I'm 17 and I decided to build a HPR. Wahoo!

I usually build scratch rockets but I decided to go with a kit to get my Level 1 certification. Its the Lil' Diter LOC Precision rocket kit. My older brother (who is redsox15 on RF) built his first HPR over the summer and got his certification so he's been helping me with the minor building questions I have. I started building it a couple weeks ago and my goal is to complete it and launch it by NEMROC in Amesbury on Oct. 25. Does this seem realistic?

I know there is some paperwork involved in applying for the Level 1 certification. Where do I get that paperwork? Also, when should I order the motor that I will be using? What type of motor should I use at Amesbury with the Lil' Diter LOC rocket? I won't have an altimeter so that may be a drawback.

I'm also up for any feedback on first time HPR building tips!

Thanks!

#### Bill P

##### Well-Known Member
Welcome, avets8.

Your time-table is very realistic. It's more up to you.

I am assuming you are doing NAR Junior Level 1. The 'paperwork' is here at the NAR website.

Motorwise; there are so many available options and manufacturers. What is available to you where you are?

Good and safe flying to you.

#### avets8

##### Well-Known Member
I was looking at the Pro38 2 grain motors since I already have that type of casing. Are there any other types of 2 grain motors that would fit in a Pro38 casing?

Another question, what is the real product name for the "dog barf" stuff people use as wading type material. I think I'm going to use that instead of a baffle kit.

#### Bill P

##### Well-Known Member
I was looking at the Pro38 2 grain motors since I already have that type of casing. Are there any other types of 2 grain motors that would fit in a Pro38 casing?
https://www.pro38.com/products/pro38/motor.php

P38-2G

266H125-12A Classic
286H100-15A Imax
261H120-14A Red Lightning
276H152-15A Blue Streak
247H143-13A Smoky Sam
273H225-14A White Thunder
255H400-13A Vmax

Another question, what is the real product name for the "dog barf" stuff people use as wading type material. I think I'm going to use that instead of a baffle kit.
It is the paper-base home insulation.

#### avets8

##### Well-Known Member
Nice, thanks! Can any other brand of motor fit inside the case?

I read through the entire Junior High Power Participation Program on the NAR website and I noticed that my "sponsor" has to carry the motor at all times until it is placed in the rocket. How does this work for ordering the motor and transportation? Another thing, I should still be able to make taping adjustments to the casing while it is outside the rocket, right, or will the sponsor have to do that for me because the motor would be inside the casing?

Also, on the NAR website it only states, "The certified adult sponsor must handle the motor at all times. The junior member can install the motor retention system once the adult sponsor has placed the motor inside the mount of the rocket." It doesn't say anywhere that I can't wire the motor so am I still allowed to do all that? So pretty much, what am I not allowed to do because its "Participation" and not "Certification"?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm afraid there could be more. Haha.

#### Bill P

##### Well-Known Member
Nice, thanks! Can any other brand of motor fit inside the case?
This is a question I don't know the answer to.

Well, one of many questions I don't know the answers to. :eyepop: Rocketry is a never ending learning process, as is life.

I read through the entire Junior High Power Participation Program on the NAR website and I noticed that my "sponsor" has to carry the motor at all times until it is placed in the rocket. How does this work for ordering the motor and transportation? Another thing, I should still be able to make taping adjustments to the casing while it is outside the rocket, right, or will the sponsor have to do that for me because the motor would be inside the casing?

Also, on the NAR website it only states, "The certified adult sponsor must handle the motor at all times. The junior member can install the motor retention system once the adult sponsor has placed the motor inside the mount of the rocket." It doesn't say anywhere that I can't wire the motor so am I still allowed to do all that? So pretty much, what am I not allowed to do because its "Participation" and not "Certification"?
It was important that you read the 'process'. Good job.

You'll have to order the motor through a sponsor. You can't order a motor until you are 18, anyways.

The reload and the casing with the reload in it is considered the motor. If you are using some sort of retainer, taping isn't necessary. If you are using friction fitting you'll have to ask your sponsor and certification 'team' what they will allow. Some will allow more than others.

Personally I'm of the thought of let a person do as much as possible by themselves. But I've never done a Junior Certification so I don't know what I'd do in that situation. The NAR Junior certification is pretty much laid out and needs to be followed and I'm a rule follower.

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm afraid there could be more. Haha.
Ask questions, that's the only way to get some good information. Ask here and, more importantly, ask members of your clubs.
Club members know the nuances of the field you are flying, the members can show you things rather than just having them described or a quick snapshot.

#### Bill P

##### Well-Known Member
Nice, thanks! Can any other brand of motor fit inside the case?
This is a question I don't know the answer to.

Well, one of many questions I don't know the answers to. :eyepop: Rocketry is a never ending learning process, as is life.

I read through the entire Junior High Power Participation Program on the NAR website and I noticed that my "sponsor" has to carry the motor at all times until it is placed in the rocket. How does this work for ordering the motor and transportation? Another thing, I should still be able to make taping adjustments to the casing while it is outside the rocket, right, or will the sponsor have to do that for me because the motor would be inside the casing?

Also, on the NAR website it only states, "The certified adult sponsor must handle the motor at all times. The junior member can install the motor retention system once the adult sponsor has placed the motor inside the mount of the rocket." It doesn't say anywhere that I can't wire the motor so am I still allowed to do all that? So pretty much, what am I not allowed to do because its "Participation" and not "Certification"?
It was important that you read the 'process'. Good job.

You'll have to order the motor through a sponsor. You can't order a motor until you are 18, anyways.

The reload and the casing with the reload in it is considered the motor. If you are using some sort of retainer, taping isn't necessary. If you are using friction fitting you'll have to ask your sponsor and certification 'team' what they will allow. Some will allow more than others.

Personally I'm of the thought of let a person do as much as possible by themselves. But I've never done a Junior Certification so I don't know what I'd do in that situation. The NAR Junior certification is pretty much laid out and needs to be followed and I'm a rule follower.

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm afraid there could be more. Haha.
Ask questions, that's the only way to get some good information. Ask here and, more importantly, ask members of your clubs.
Club members know the nuances of the field you are flying, the members can show you things rather than just having them described or a quick snapshot.

#### Pantherjon

##### Well-Known Member
Nice, thanks! Can any other brand of motor fit inside the case?
Nope..Only Pro38 loads will fit that case..Nice choice of motors tho from the list Bill posted!

I read through the entire Junior High Power Participation Program on the NAR website and I noticed that my "sponsor" has to carry the motor at all times until it is placed in the rocket. How does this work for ordering the motor and transportation? Another thing, I should still be able to make taping adjustments to the casing while it is outside the rocket, right, or will the sponsor have to do that for me because the motor would be inside the casing?
Glad to see someone actually READ the process! Good on you! Sponsor would be required to order and transport the motor to the launch site..Lost me with 'taping adjustments'?? As in 'friction fitting' the motor in the rocket? Or adjusting the ejection delay?
Also, on the NAR website it only states, "The certified adult sponsor must handle the motor at all times. The junior member can install the motor retention system once the adult sponsor has placed the motor inside the mount of the rocket." It doesn't say anywhere that I can't wire the motor so am I still allowed to do all that? So pretty much, what am I not allowed to do because its "Participation" and not "Certification"?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm afraid there could be more. Haha.
I am pretty sure that once your sponsor has put the motor in the rocket and you have secured it, that the 2 of you will go to the launch pad..If I were your sponsor I would have you hook up the ignitor..

Ask away with the questions!

#### bobkrech

##### Well-Known Member
avets8

CMASS's Woodsom Farm Park is an excellent New England HP field, however because of our coastal location there is frequently a fair bit of wind. A Jr. L1 may not use electronic deployment so you are restricted to motor ejection with apogee deployment. A 3" LOC Lil' Diter will reach 2,000 ft on a Pro38 2 grain reload and in a 10 mph wind will drift 2000' from the launch pad with apogee deployment. We require infield recovery for all high power flights, so depending on wind direction, if the wind is over 7 mph you may not be able to do your certification attempt on any given day with a 3" rocket. For this reason we recommend a 4" rocket that will not exceed 1500' apogee for L1 cert attempts.

Have you contacted anyone at CMASS about you Jr. L1 Certification? A member will have to get your reload and assist you with your flight. You will also have to bring you NAR membership card with you to the launch. You can e-mail me through TRF or the CMASS website if you need assistance with your Jr. L1.

Bob Krech, CMASS Senior Advisor
TRF HP and Propulsion Moderator

#### RocketFeller

##### Well-Known Member
I would recommend getting some milled fiber to add to your epoxy if you don't already have some. Mike Fisher (Binder Design) introduced me to it a few years ago.

I have only used glass fiber, but I have read on the forum that some people also use carbon or aramid fiber. Great Planes milled fiberglass is available at hobby stores and comes in a convenient dispenser.

Adding milled fiber increases the strength of fillets (or so they say, I haven't seen any tests). It also changes the consistency of the epoxy, which I think is it's best feature. Fillets are less likely to sag and it smoothes out nicely. The cured epoxy (it's actually a composite) sands better in my opinion.

To use it I first mix the epoxy as normal and then add a volume of fiber equal to about half the epoxy and mix it in thoroughly. This is a much larger amount of fiber than it calls for on the container, but that is the way I like it.

Good luck on your L-1, I think it is great to see someone your age getting certified, I can't imagine the rockets you'll be building by the time you're my age (twenty years from now!). :clap:

#### redsox15

##### Well-Known Member
Bob,

I am avets8 (adams) older brother and I am lvl one certified so could I be his sponsor or does the sponsor have to be lvl one certified but not related? Just wondering because it would make shipping and prep easier on launch day. Adam, I want to see progress of build pics since im at college and cant see the progress. Good Luck!

Matt

#### avets8

##### Well-Known Member
Matthew: to answer your question, it says on the NAR website procedure that the sponser or the two 'certification team' members cannot be related to the launcher.

RocketFeller: I'm using LOCTITE Heavy Duty Epoxy at the moment but havn't tried the fiber thing. I looked it up and it seems like its sawdust for fiberglass so that makes sence that it would make the epoxy stronger.

Bob Krech: I have already started building my Lil' Diter rocket and was able to build it on RocSim and it said that the rocket would go between 2700ft-3500ft on any Pro38 2G motors. Is Woodsom Farm Park the Amesbury, MA field? I know that the Amesbury field is rated for up to K motor launches, but what is considered returning back onto the launch field for that specific field?
I haven't contacted anyone from CMASS yet about my Jr. Lv1.
When I saw your name I thought to myself 'why does this name sound so familiar?' and then I realized that matthew has mentioned you in some of our conversations a few times. Haha.

Pantherjon: Thanks, good to know that the Pro38 motors are the only ones.
By the taping adjustments I do mean friction fitting. Sorry about that, I didn't know the technical term. I have made a reload retention system but I was also planning of friction fitting the motor into the rocket because I have slid the casing I have into the motor mount tube and it slides around very easily so I'm thinking better safe then sorry.

Bill P: I will be using a reload retention system but I was also planning of friction fitting the motor into the rocket because I have slid the casing I have into the motor mount tube and it slides around very easily so I'm thinking better safe then sorry.

Thanks for all the tips!

#### fox_racing_guy

##### Well-Known Member
Thats a good rocket for a L1 cert, I've personally flown my Lil' Diter on Aerotech J570's twice and mine is 100% assembled with Titebond II woodglue so don't stress not reinforcing your epoxy joints with milled fiber and I'm sure it will hold up just fine. If your worried about drift you could use a Chute Tamer https://www.chutetamer.com/introduction.shtml to make yours dual deploy with out the issues of using black powder. Thats how I've flown mine with the J loads and it worked perfectly both times.

#### Jon Craig

ChuteTamer is $200... #### BsSmith ##### Well-Known Member Nice to see somebody else doing a Jr. L1! There aren't many of us out there. #### bobkrech ##### Well-Known Member Bob, I am avets8 (adams) older brother and I am lvl one certified so could I be his sponsor or does the sponsor have to be lvl one certified but not related? Just wondering because it would make shipping and prep easier on launch day. Adam, I want to see progress of build pics since im at college and can't see the progress. Good Luck! Matt Matt You can be his L1 certified sponsor, but you have to physically be there. A Junior HPR Level 1 Participant is not allowed to possess, handle or transport the motor by law because he is not 18, so his sponsor must assemble and install the motor in the rocket. You also can not ship a high power motor unless you are a signatory to DOT-SP 10996. The rules for the NAR Junior HPR Level 1 Participation Program are here https://www.nar.org/hpcert/jrhppreq.html Bob Krech: I have already started building my Lil' Diter rocket and was able to build it on RocSim and it said that the rocket would go between 2700ft-3500ft on any Pro38 2G motors. Is Woodsom Farm Park the Amesbury, MA field? I know that the Amesbury field is rated for up to K motor launches, but what is considered returning back onto the launch field for that specific field? Our HP altitude limit for Woodsom Farm in Amesbury is 3,400' with dual deploy, and the RSO will usually restrict HP apogee deployment flights to 2,000' or less unless it's dead calm. We allow L2 certified members to launch up to J motors, but the RSO has the option to allow low altitude flights with K motors by L3 certified members. All HP launches are conducted according to the NAR High Power Safety Code which states: Flight Safety. I will not launch my rocket ... beyond the boundaries of the launch site ... https://www.nar.org/cabinet/HPRSafetyCode.pdf The residential neighbor hoods to the north, and the homes on Lionsmouth Road to the south are not part of the launch field, so a recovery from either location disqualifies your cert flight. The swamp to the west, and the woods to the east are part of the launch field, but the odds of recovering and returning your rocket from these locations as required for the certification are not good. If your rocket will reach 2,700' to 3,500' it's not suitable for a Jr. HP Cert flight at our field. I estimated the weight of your rocket and simmed it to ~2000' using a Cd = 0.75. I would suggest that you weigh the rocket as build, and manually input the actual weight into RocSim, and then run the sim as a function of Cd and bring the results to the field. If you launch it on a G first, we will know how high it will go on an H. You need to bring this form and proof of current NAR membership with you when you attempt to certify. https://www.nar.org/pdf/JRHPRForm.pdf (note: The applicant information should be filled in beforehand and requires the signature of a parent or legal guardian). Make sure you comply with the rules. https://www.nar.org/pdf/JRHPR.pdf Bob #### redsox15 ##### Well-Known Member Right, I understand that I'll have to be there, just was making sure that I could do that thanks for the clarification Matt #### avets8 ##### Well-Known Member You can be his L1 certified sponsor, but you have to physically be there. A Junior HPR Level 1 Participant is not allowed to possess, handle or transport the motor by law because he is not 18, so his sponsor must assemble and install the motor in the rocket. So do you mean by "assemble and install" that Matt would have to wire the motor? #### Bill P ##### Well-Known Member So do you mean by "assemble and install" that Matt would have to wire the motor? Igniters are regulated. So, likely, he'll have to put them in. Hooking up the clips to the wires is another thing, I'd say, no problem. #### bobkrech ##### Well-Known Member So do you mean by "assemble and install" that Matt would have to wire the motor? Motors are not "wired". Igniters for high power APCP motors are installed at the pad after safety check. The person allowed to do this is not specified in the requirements, however based on the logic of the Jr. Participation Program, my interpretation is that the sponsor should install the igniter into the motor, but the Jr. level participant is allowed to connect it to the launch clips. Bob #### avets8 ##### Well-Known Member so, based off NAR not specifying who, I should be allowed to install the ignitor myself, correct? Becuase the motor will already be inside the rocket and once its in the rocket I'm allowed to possess it while the sponsor is supervising. If not, it kinda takes half the fun away and I might as well wait 9 months when I'm 18... #### avets8 ##### Well-Known Member well, i'm still gonna have my rocket done by October 25, the day of the New England Model Rocketry Convention (NEMROC) and since my older brother is able to be my sponsor things are a lot easier. I have decided to go with the Pro38 H120-14A Red Lightning motor. If things don't work out the day of the launch, such as to much wind and other variables, I will wait for a later time next launch season but being 18 doesn't really matter that much anymore. I will follow up with some pictures that I have taken of what I've done so far, but I still have to put them on the computer. They'll be on soon. #### r1dermon ##### Well-Known Member i certified lvl 1 on that field, to about 1500 ft or so on a 3" BSD and an H128. i would not suggest going over 2500 ft on that field with ANYTHING that uses apogee deployment. i've lost more rockets there....arg. of course, it could be a testament to how terrible i am a rocketeer. lol. good luck dude! #### avets8 ##### Well-Known Member i certified lvl 1 on that field, to about 1500 ft or so on a 3" BSD and an H128. i would not suggest going over 2500 ft on that field with ANYTHING that uses apogee deployment. i've lost more rockets there....arg. ya i've been to that field a few times ands know its not too big. Unfortunately my rocksim had the rocket going to 3500ft but according to Mr. Krech it should only go around 2000~2500ft. Hopefully he's right. I'm only gonna fly if there is absolutely no wind and even with that we'll see. I just found out that NEMROC is now 2 days of launching instead of 1 so I'll have double the chances of little wind! Here are the pictures I promised. Its a LOC Lil' Diter. Only 3 pictures, not too much: The first one is my motor mount tube, so far I have the back centering ring on only, I'll put the other one on after I put it in the body tube and attach the fins. The second one is the upper half of the rocket. If you're looking at it funny thinking its upside-down, well, that's because it is upside-down. I kept it upside down and clamped because I wanted to make sure any epoxy that happened to drip during the setting period would drip back onto the nosecone. I had to epoxy this payload section together because the entire peace acts collectively as my nosecone. The third one is the motor retention system, i think thats kinda self-explanatory. #### redsox15 ##### Well-Known Member So far so good little bro. Only thing i would say is make sure those clips reach the edge of the top of the motor. I should have a spent pro38 motor upstairs in my rocket box you can test that out...but it seems like you did that. Hopefully I will be home for that weekend which shouldn't be a problem since I'm only 2hrs away keep it up Matt #### avets8 ##### Well-Known Member Only thing i would say is make sure those clips reach the edge of the top of the motor. I should have a spent pro38 motor upstairs in my rocket box you can test that out...but it seems like you did that. ya I measured out where the clips had to go with the spent motor before drilling the holes, plus I have already tested the clips with the spent motor and it reaches perfectly. #### MarkH ##### --- ya i've been to that field a few times ands know its not too big. Unfortunately my rocksim had the rocket going to 3500ft but according to Mr. Krech it should only go around 2000~2500ft. Hopefully he's right. I'm only gonna fly if there is absolutely no wind and even with that we'll see. I just found out that NEMROC is now 2 days of launching instead of 1 so I'll have double the chances of little wind! Here are the pictures I promised. Its a LOC Lil' Diter. Only 3 pictures, not too much: The first one is my motor mount tube, so far I have the back centering ring on only, I'll put the other one on after I put it in the body tube and attach the fins. The second one is the upper half of the rocket. If you're looking at it funny thinking its upside-down, well, that's because it is upside-down. I kept it upside down and clamped because I wanted to make sure any epoxy that happened to drip during the setting period would drip back onto the nosecone. I had to epoxy this payload section together because the entire peace acts collectively as my nosecone. The third one is the motor retention system, i think thats kinda self-explanatory. Where'd you get those clips? Are those the clips LOC sells? Cool build so far. I like this kit. Thought about getting one. Keep the updates coming! #### avets8 ##### Well-Known Member Where'd you get those clips? Are those the clips LOC sells? Cool build so far. I like this kit. Thought about getting one. Keep the updates coming! I got the clips at a TrueValue hardware store. None of the screws, clips, or fasteners that i'm using came with the kit. The clips are some sort of lawn mower part that i'll just screw down tightly onto the top of the motor. They work perfectly because they fold over the edge of the motor giving it a little extra grip and they were just about$1 a piece so they work out pretty well.

I'll be sure to keep up with the updates, but may have to wait for the weekend though because we're getting a cold front here in Mass. and I can't do to much with the epoxy until it gets a little warmer.

#### BsSmith

##### Well-Known Member
I'll be sure to keep up with the updates, but may have to wait for the weekend though because we're getting a cold front here in Mass. and I can't do to much with the epoxy until it gets a little warmer.
Don't worry about the epoxy being cold. I built an entire I-powered rocket with hobby shop epoxy while it was -20 degrees outside (40 degrees in the basement). You shouldn't have a problem.

#### dave carver

##### ....what hump?
ChuteTamer is $200... I think the chute tamer for rockets is a rubber band or ring that gathers the shroud lines to just under the shroud. The filling of the chute forces the ring or rubber band down the shroud lines expanding the chute. I'm pretty sure you can get a rubber band for less than$200

p.s.; LOL!!! Looked at the one at LOC, that's nutso! \$200 to reef a parachute? I wonder if they sell 2 a year:roll:

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