My EV Experience

[jqavins]

I don't feel up to reading 2000+ posts in this thread to see if my thoughts would be better there, so please forgive me if they would.

Last weekend, I rented a Tesla 3 for a trip to Union Beach, NJ (600 miles or so round trip). We intended to rent a car, and were surprised to find that Hertz's best price for the weekend was for the Tesla ($80/day base rate but $270+ all in for the weekend). So I thought I'd share my experience.

First, please do not think that I think I'm talking about EVs in general. Tesla is not the only maker, and the Model 3 is not their only model. I know.

It's small. Too damn small for me. Yes, I'm obese which has a lot to do with it. I'm also on the short end of normal height, and oddly proportioned with short legs and a tall torso. I found the car a little uncomfortable sitting in the driver's seat and very uncomfortable getting into and out of. If I get an EV, which I hope and expect to do, it will not be a Model 3.

Range: we had to stop to charge up once on the way down and twice on the way back, not counting the top off before returning it. In my Ford Escape, we would have filled up when we left and only once during the round trip. The charging stops take the better part of an hour, though we did manage to combine two of the three with meal stops. (On the other hand, when filling up takes five minutes I often don't make a meal stop except to hit up a drive through.) The range on EVs in general is ever improving, but if anyone tells you it's just not an issue anymore, don't you believe it.

Driving experience: The first thing you notice, after figuring out how to start going, is that this car doesn't coast. If you take your foot off the accelerator it starts braking, and not just a little. To slow down slowly you have to feather off the accelerator. There's a good reason it's made that way - coasting your speed down doesn't allow for regeneration - but it takes a good deal of getting used to. You do get used to it. The next thing to get used to would be feathering off less, learning to brake later and faster than you might be used to in order to increase regeneration and extend the range.

The second thing you'll notice is that it's just a car. Push the right pedal it goes, push the left pedal it stops, rotate the steering wheel and it turns. After getting used to the accelerator behavior, you just drive it.

The third thing is that there are too few controls. Placing this feature, and that feature, and then the next one, and the next one all on that touch screen might seem cool, but it means taking your eyes off the road further and longer than I want to, further and longer than I do in my Escape, and even the Escape makes me look at the screen more than I'd like. I feel like I need a copilot in order to drive safely while changing the radio station. I expect that's the same on all of the Tesla models, but I don't know about any other company's EVs.

The side mirrors are too small. The left side mirror especially leaves a HUGE blind spot that nearly got me into side swipes twice. There are three camera views - one straight back and two side-back - which give a much better view, and there's even a schematic view of you're surroundings forward and back in your lane and one lane to each side. Well, great, but just like so many of the controls I have to take my eyes off the road by too much and for too long in order to use them.

Enough complaining. That famous acceleration is not only fun, but occasionally useful for merges and entering roadways. Finally (and again) it's a car; it stops and goes, it gets you from here to there, and you probably already know how to drive it. I want one, but make mine the next bigger model up, or a different make with more traditional controls.

 

[neil_w]

Three quick comments:

1) the “one pedal driving” mode is settable in the driving options. It does take a bit of getting used to before you can manage the accelerator smoothly.

2) the Model 3 is not small but it is very *low*. I find the seats to be extremely comfortable but it’s a bit of a chore to get out of. The Model Y is basically the same but sits higher and is much easier to get in and out of.

3) Tesla did indeed go overboard with the touchscreen on the 3 and Y, but it is something you get used to pretty quickly.

 

[Funkworks]

As for my own 1-week experience with a Model 3, here's what I can say.

Range: we had to stop to charge up once on the way down and twice on the way back, not counting the top off before returning it. In my Ford Escape, we would have filled up when we left and only once during the round trip. The charging stops take the better part of an hour, though we did manage to combine two of the three with meal stops. (On the other hand, when filling up takes five minutes I often don't make a meal stop except to hit up a drive through.) The range on EVs in general is ever improving, but if anyone tells you it's just not an issue anymore, don't you believe it.

For someone who only does 600-mile trips a few times year, I wouldn't see this as a show stopper, especially if the rest of the year, I can charge at home (do less than 250 miles a day) and skip on-the-road fill-ups/charging altogether.

If I could make a few modifications, I'd have the speedometer and range indicator straight behind the steering wheel, and I'd add a few physical switches/buttons because I often wear gloves when it's colder. But I could get use to it.

 

[WoShuGui]

Having one EV and a large comfortable vehicle is the way to go in a 2+ car household. We rarely run into situations every driver simultaneously needs a long range vehicle and the EV can cover over 90% of our local trips where comfort is less of an issue. IMHO Teslas are overpriced for what you get, but they seem to be some sort of status symbol these days.

 

[jqavins]

2) the Model 3 is not small but it is very *low*. I find the seats to be extremely comfortable but it’s a bit of a chore to get out of. The Model Y is basically the same but sits higher and is much easier to get in and out of.

Do you have the measurements? Low is a big part of why I have trouble folding my legs in or out. But, even with my ass down in the seat I still had to pull my head down like a turtle to not hit the top of the door frame. And I would likewise hit my head while sitting when I adjust my posture. (Y'know, yer butt slips forward and you recline a little, then you want to sit up straighter and have to bend forward a little to make the adjustment. And my head hits the sky light frame.)

For someone who only does 600-mile trips a few times year, I wouldn't see this as a show stopper, especially if the rest of the year, I can charge at home (do less than 250 miles a day) and skip on-the-road fill-ups/charging altogether.

Having one EV and a large comfortable vehicle is the way to go in a 2+ car household. We rarely run into situations every driver simultaneously needs a long range vehicle and the EV can cover over 90% of our local trips where comfort is less of an issue.

Yes, those together sum up my thinking on the subject. We're a one car family at the moment, but really need to have a second. The Escape (or a replacement for that) and an EV would probably be ideal.

 

[Funkworks]

IMHO Teslas are overpriced for what you get, but they seem to be some sort of status symbol these days.

As someone who's been following both the buyer and seller sides almost daily for over a year and a half now, I do like what they do with the revenue: succeeding as a 100% electric company, pushing the bounds of manufacturing efficiency, and defining the the edge of autonomy/self-driving. Their expanding charging network is also worth something, but it's slowly becoming available to others now.

Do you have the measurements? Low is a big part of ...

I think the Model 3 was made to be compared with the BMW 3-series and Mercedes C-class ("compact executive"), so that probably should be the expectation size-wise.

 

[prfesser]

Many thanks for the review, Joe! When it comes to major purchases I much prefer the opinions of smart people/organizations who have no axe to grind and no profit to make.

Unfortunately I don't see us getting an EV any time in the near future, especially if it takes getting used to the accelerator. Elder daughter at 35 yo is about as good at driving as I was at 17 (yes, really); she would have serious difficulty with an EV. SWMBO is a few years younger than me and doesn't want to buy a car at all. I'd like her to get a newer one now so she doesn't have to deal with that purchase when she's 80.

The idea of a hybrid or gasoline vehicle for the occasional long trip, and an EV for commuting around here, is a really good one.

 

[lakeroadster]

Thanks Joe. Finally a review from somebody without an agenda.

I find it ironic that on our 2019 Ranger (our newest vehicles) Ford decided to lock down many touch screen features if the vehicle is moving... but on a Tesla, you pretty much have to play video games while driving to get features to work.

Just what the driving world needs, more distractions for drivers.

The good news... if you rear end somebody you don't have to worry about damaging your radiator.

 

[neil_w]

Unfortunately I don't see us getting an EV any time in the near future, especially if it takes getting used to the accelerator.

Again, this is normally adjustable.

 

[jqavins]

If one makes that adjustment, does it significantly reduce the range? What I wrote about the loss of regeneration if one coasts down is, first, something I've read about why Tesla made it that way, and second, something that makes sense physically and electrically. What I don't know is if it matches experience.

Also, I feel like I have to repeat this: it's disconcerting at first and makes for some jerky stops, but only for a short time. Saturday I got used to it pretty quickly, then I forgot over night, and Sunday I re-got used to it very quickly. I expect that if I owned one it would be completely natural within a week.

 

[Funkworks]

if it takes getting used to the accelerator.

It's different but not more difficult. It saves the driver from having to move their foot from one pedal to the other, making driving objectively easier and safer. Immediate braking, no lag. And the car will slow down sooner if the driver falls asleep.

The idea of a hybrid or gasoline vehicle for the occasional long trip, and an EV for commuting around here, is a really good one.

It's what a PHEV like mine does. I call it a transformer: EV mode for the short trips and hybrid mode for the long ones.

... the loss of regeneration if one coasts down ...

Not sure about Tesla, but my Hyundai regenerates while coasting, and more so when braking.

 

[lakeroadster]

Any of you folks with EV's had to replace the brake pads on your EV yet? Just wondering how often that is needed. Regenerating should make the interval less... except the EV is heavier... so is it a wash?

 

[Funkworks]

... somebody without an agenda.

I've enjoyed being a face for EVs on TRF but have no agenda that I know of. I'm glad they finally exist and like to know what's going on. I surely can't make money using a WB character.

Any of you folks with EV's had to replace the brake pads on your EV yet? Just wondering how often that is needed. Regenerating should make the interval less... except the EV is heavier... so is it a wash?

No replacement after a year and a half and none in sight. The shops do tell me I should get them cleaned though. Since they don't get contact with the pads, the rotors tend to rust and can seize. I hear them "unseizing" quite often in the morning before my first drive.

 

[jqavins]

Any of you folks with EV's had to replace the brake pads on your EV yet? Just wondering how often that is needed. Regenerating should make the interval less... except the EV is heavier... so is it a wash?

Just guessing, but my guess is they need changing virtually never.

 

[lakeroadster]

I've enjoyed being a face for EVs on TRF but have no agenda that I know of. I'm glad they finally exist and like to know what's going on.

For real? FWIW... I see you as one of the most rabid fans of Green Energy on the forum. Might be a wrong assessment on my part, but that's how I see it.

I love your rockets though.

 

[lakeroadster]

Just guessing, but my guess is they need changing virtually never.

My stick shift 2002 Tacoma had over 127,000 miles when we sold it, still wearing it's factory brakes and clutch. Needless to say, coasting and down shifting is a way of life for me.

 

[Funkworks]

For real? FWIW... I see you as one of the most rabid fans of Green Energy on the forum. Might be a wrong assessment on my part, but that's how I see it.

Sure. But it's not an agenda. And I’m not one to say “green”. When I take a step back and look at the big picture, long-term sustainability makes the most sense to me. I see O&G as one of many options, not the go-to one. Optimizing energy use is quite a fundamental thing.

I'm here as a rocket and space nut. Techs that will also work in space, the Moon and Mars are the most interesting. These aren’t fantasy to me but very real and tangible.

 

[sr205347d]

the “one pedal driving” mode is settable in the driving options.

This is not true for my 2023 Model Y. It is true for my wife’s 2022 Chevy Bolt.

The Tesla does a lot of things differently, but the Chevy looks and operates like an ICE car, so the Bolt is a much easier transition.

I love my Tesla, and my wife loves her Bolt.

 

[BEC]

Any of you folks with EV's had to replace the brake pads on your EV yet? Just wondering how often that is needed. Regenerating should make the interval less... except the EV is heavier... so is it a wash?

Well....we have 61K+ on our 2016 Soul EV, and considering how I always drive in the mode that has the most braking regen (this car only has two, and even in this mode it still creeps forward with your foot off the brake, like a gas car with an automatic) I hardly ever use the brakes to actually slow the car down. I'm almost only on the brake to hold it at a stop. My expectation is that the brake pads will last a long long long time.

Just guessing, but my guess is they need changing virtually never.

Yup.

My stick shift 2002 Tacoma had over 127,000 miles when we sold it, still wearing it's factory brakes and clutch. Needless to say, coasting and down shifting is a way of life for me.

We have 108K on our Mazda3 which has a six-speed stick. There's still lots of life left in its front brakes, too. Downshifting on this car isn't as effective as some earlier ones we've owned, but still is our usual mode.

In the Kia, the "B" mode which is the more-regeneration mode, feels more like a gear or two downshift when you lift off the "go" pedal rather than aggressively braking as is apparently Tesla's default mode.

I have not driven a Tesla. I think the Model 3/Y everything-on-the-screen business would be irritating for me, too.

 

[lakeroadster]

Sure. But it's not an agenda. When I take a step back and look at the big picture, long-term sustainability makes the most sense to me. I see O&G as one of many options, not the go-to one. Optimizing energy use is quite a fundamental thing.

I'm here as a rocket and space nut. Techs that will also work in space, the Moon and Mars are those I like best.

Then "they" need to let capitalism prove the "optimizing" of which you speak. "They" need to stop picking winners and losers by subisidizing their winners, and regulating their losers to death.

That is the definition of an "Agenda".

At least that's my read of where we are today.

 

[Funkworks]

Then "they" need to let capitalism prove the "optimizing" of which you speak. "They" need to stop picking winners and losers by subisidizing their winners, and regulating their losers to death.

That is the definition of an "Agenda".

At least that's my read of where we are today.

Oh well this comes down to how government spends revenue, which is politics. I won’t be dragged into that but note that the government also supports just about every aerospace company out there so I don’t try to pick and choose. I just appreciate it. They also bailed out GM and banks in 2008-09. I just don’t have all the data they have to justify what they do. My background is in STEM not government.

Now if I design a machine, I need a source of energy. If the source is silent, doesn’t vibrate, doesn’t emit in my town and doesn’t waste energy as heat, those are all bonuses efficiency wise. That’s the efficiency I’m talking about. EV are beautiful machines. Electromagnetism is magical. Planetary-scale emissions are also a concern so I’ll avoid them whenever I can.

On the scale you refer to, what seems less efficient at first (initial cost of a battery, and energy required to make it) can be more efficient in the long run (less energy use and cheaper overall after many years). That’s what appears to be the case with EVs, although we still only have 10-15 years of good data.

While a capitalist looking for immediate savings and profits might see an ICE as a better option, a capitalist considering expenses due to worldwide emissions (via gvmt and insurance), and battery longevity, might prefer the EV. That, plus the instant torque, the fun of new techs, and the freedom of energy choice pretty much locks me in.

I enjoy both batteries and atmospheric science so yeah, of course I’ll look at how they relate. It’s been the case before gvmts got involved and will still be the case when they’re out.

I was working with lithium before I knew what it was good for so again, don’t anyone drag me into politics because of it.

 

[neil_w]

Any of you folks with EV's had to replace the brake pads on your EV yet? Just wondering how often that is needed. Regenerating should make the interval less... except the EV is heavier... so is it a wash?

Replacing brake pads on an EV is pretty rare.

This is not true for my 2023 Model Y.

If it is true on my Model 3 I’d be pretty surprised if it is also not true on your Y. My dad has it on his ‘21 Y as far as I know.

 

[lakeroadster]

Now if I design a machine, I need a source of energy. If the source is silent, doesn’t vibrate, doesn’t emit in my town and doesn’t waste energy as heat, those are all bonuses efficiency wise. That’s the efficiency I’m talking about. EV are beautiful machines. Electromagnetism is magical. Planetary-scale emissions are also a concern so I’ll avoid them whenever I can.

If that energy source magically appeared, I'd understand your point. That source in fact is made from a stew of nasty chemicals and elements, bought from 3rd world countries that are the biggest polluters in the world, that treat their workers like disposable tools and use a plethora of things that aren't silent, that do vibrate and do emit and waste energy as heat.. but it's all outsourced to another town, so you can feel all warm and fuzzy. And those nasty chemicals and elements, there simple aren't enough of them to go around. And then there's the issue of those nasty chemicals and elements we have yet to determine how to recycle on a grand scale.

 

[CalebJ]

Well... Someone has an agenda.

 

[gtg738w]

Our first EV was 8 years ago and we fully converted about 4 years later. We now have a 3 and a Y (replaced a 335xi and an X3) and wouldn't even consider an ICE car again. My wife and I have very different reasons for our opinions, but after living with them, it's not even close. Renting a car on business travel is a shock every time.

 

[jqavins]

In the Kia, the "B" mode which is the more-regeneration mode, feels more like a gear or two downshift when you lift off the "go" pedal rather than aggressively braking as is apparently Tesla's default mode.

No, I would agree that it's like downshifting two at a time. But since I haven't had the pleasure of driving a stick (not sarcastic) in years, that feels a lot like braking.

Then "they" need to let capitalism prove the "optimizing" of which you speak. "They" need to stop picking winners and losers by subisidizing their winners, and regulating their losers to death.

That is the definition of an "Agenda".

At least that's my read of where we are today.

When capitalism does all the optimizing, you get unrestricted child labor and rivers that burn. The imposition of regulations and other ways of encouraging this or discouraging that by governments impose a cost in terms of lost economic efficiency. And I've never met anyone who doesn't agree that that cost is worth paying for something. Disagreements arise about which values should supported at what cost. Sometimes, some people will say that the government should never impose it's values, but no one really believes that, even if they've talked themselves into thinking they do.

"Are you seriously saying that keeping factories from working children to death is the same as imposing cap and trade on CO₂ emissions?" Yes, yes I am; it's the same in kind, just different "winners and losers".

 

[jqavins]

Our first EV was 8 years ago and we fully converted about 4 years later. We now have a 3 and a Y (replaced a 335xi and an X3) and wouldn't even consider an ICE car again. My wife and I have very different reasons for our opinions, but after living with them, it's not even close. Renting a car on business travel is a shock every time.

How would you compare the 3 and the Y?

 

[lakeroadster]

No, I would agree that it's like downshifting two at a time. But since I haven't had the pleasure of driving a stick (not sarcastic) in years, that feels a lot like braking.


When capitalism does all the optimizing, you get unrestricted child labor and rivers that burn. The imposition of regulations and other ways of encouraging this or discouraging that by governments impose a cost in terms of lost economic efficiency. And I've never met anyone who doesn't agree that that cost is worth paying for something. Disagreements arise about which values should supported at what cost. Sometimes, some people will say that the government should never impose it's values, but no one really believes that, even if they've talked themselves into thinking they do.

"Are you seriously saying that keeping factories from working children to death is the same as imposing cap and trade on CO₂ emissions?" Yes, yes I am; it's the same in kind, just different "winners and losers".

The Fed is meant to protect us from enemies both foreign and domestic... PERIOD!

Want to impose your will on citizens, do that at the state level. Then we can move to a state that represents our values.

 

[gtg738w]

How would you compare the 3 and the Y?

It's basically the exact same car but slightly bigger in most areas. Also had options for 7 seats and factory tow hitch.

 

[bjphoenix]

It's small.

The third thing is that there are too few controls. Placing this feature, and that feature, and then the next one, and the next one all on that touch screen

Enough complaining. That famous acceleration

I've only ridden in one once. I don't know the models but this was the one that is just ugly, not the one that is extremely ugly. I'm 6'-4" tall and I don't recall it being smaller than something like a Camry.

Too few controls is a problem. Cars are mechanical devices so they need a certain amount of manual controls. I've owned cars with knobs, buttons and so forth and I could operate the radio and the heater without taking my eyes off of the road. I don't like touchscreens because they take too long to operate- you have to find the menu item, push it, wait for it to respond, etc. In my car I could reach out with my eyes closed, find the knob that controlled heater fan speed, and turn it.

But yes they do have acceleration. I have a sports sedan with 400hp V8 and 6-speed manual. Even the little very ugly Tesla will run away from it without knowing you are trying to race it.

I think full electric cars are too limiting to be a universal solution for everybody. At this point in time I think a plug-in hybrid is a better solution or most people. My other vehicle, besides the sports sedan, is mostly driven on long road trips to places where there are no EV chargers so it doesn't make any sense for that vehicle to have any electric power.