Enough power, stable off the pad, each stage powered and stable, deployment, not breaking the freaking escape tower, sports scale good looks. So many complexities!
Multi Stage Saturn V
- Thread starter lakeroadster
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lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
Genius.... torpedo chutes in the stuffer tubes....
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Could even work in some rear eject chutes on the outboards...too complex, KISS!
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Will 5xC6 get all that weight moving fast enough? 18mm composite motors on first stage?And if you want to do a moon shot.. load it up with C6 motors in all the stages and an A motor in the 4th stage for a 2,800 foot apogee
But the chances of finding all the parts would be Slim and Nun. Slim is still walking around at the launch site; the Nun went back to the convent.
View attachment 548375
lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
Sure, rear eject is doable.
Update with the 2nd stage flash pan ignition, 1stage rear ejection, 2nd stage front ejection, 3rd stage front ejection, 4th stage rear drag ejection.
lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
31.6 mph off the rod. Anything over 30 mph I consider guud enuff.
A nice, long, strong and thick rod! Warm, no wind and at altitude!
boatgeek
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lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
Well done Old Chap! Well done.
heada
Well-Known Member
I've never done flashpan inside a rocket... not sure I'd want to. If I were doing it, I'd use ultra fast burning paper fuse from one of the previous stage motors to the 5 next stage motors.
https://www.skylighter.com/collections/firework-fuse/products/quick-fuse-white-gn1207
It lights VERY easily (as easily as BP) and burns at 0.1sec per foot. 5 sections from the central booster motor to the 5 next stage motors is how I'd do it.
https://www.skylighter.com/collections/firework-fuse/products/quick-fuse-white-gn1207
It lights VERY easily (as easily as BP) and burns at 0.1sec per foot. 5 sections from the central booster motor to the 5 next stage motors is how I'd do it.
lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
Thanks for the suggestion.
Do you just insert these into the motor and secure with ignitor plug, or secure them with masking tape to the motor?
Just curious if there are any techniques to ensure success.
Reply to English NCO post above:
No Blackadders here! Jolly good, we are going to win this bloody thing here in 1917!
I will always celebrate Empire Day, to remember all those who so gallantly gave thier lives to keep China British!
Mindsiming really sucks. I just got a visit from my inner RSO. Now he is questioning if there is enough velocity off the rail (not rod) to successfuly flash pan that cluster stage in a vertical position. He reminded me of all the high power staging requirements - tiltometers and such. Well I told him to get lost, that he was nothing but a Debbie Downer. Talk to the hand cause the rest ain't listening! He said "What are words for, cause no one listens anymore...Do you hear me...Do you care?" I said Hush, hush, keep it down now, voices carry...shut up! Shut up!
Like Das Boot, just have to get the weight out of the back end! Just a few more things for the Chief to fix and we will get one shot at it. The old man had a good plan...but the problem was that it had to work.
Old dudes, move out of the early 1980's, no matter how much you think they rocked! You've been RICKROLLED!
No Blackadders here! Jolly good, we are going to win this bloody thing here in 1917!
I will always celebrate Empire Day, to remember all those who so gallantly gave thier lives to keep China British!
Mindsiming really sucks. I just got a visit from my inner RSO. Now he is questioning if there is enough velocity off the rail (not rod) to successfuly flash pan that cluster stage in a vertical position. He reminded me of all the high power staging requirements - tiltometers and such. Well I told him to get lost, that he was nothing but a Debbie Downer. Talk to the hand cause the rest ain't listening! He said "What are words for, cause no one listens anymore...Do you hear me...Do you care?" I said Hush, hush, keep it down now, voices carry...shut up! Shut up!
Like Das Boot, just have to get the weight out of the back end! Just a few more things for the Chief to fix and we will get one shot at it. The old man had a good plan...but the problem was that it had to work.
Old dudes, move out of the early 1980's, no matter how much you think they rocked! You've been RICKROLLED!
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Yes Mr. RSO, I ditched the internal flash plan for quick fuse!
Again, with fuse, how do you get (guarantee) the upper stage motors to light simultaneously given the slighty different burn rates of the booster C6 0s?
An internal flash pan blowing off a burning interstage ring would be so awesome. EXTRA SCALE POINTS!
heada
Well-Known Member
In the motor, I expose 1/4" of the match inside and put that into the motor nozzle. That is secured with an Estes plug if there is room and if not, a wad of wadding and masking tape over the nozzle. For the booster ejection end, similarly expose 1/4" of the match and bundle all of them together with the exposed ends into the ejection area. That is then secured with masking tape.
heada
Well-Known Member
I used only a single booster motor so that all staging is based on that motor. The others were standard delay motors. I also wrapped the paper fuse (not quick match!!, that's regulated) with aluminum tape so that if the booster motor didn't fire for any reason, the delay motors didn't light the paper fuse
1st stage: 4x C6-5 & 1x C6-0. C6-5 had parachutes in their tubes and the C6-0 had the paper fuse taped into the ejection well.
2nd stage: 4x C6-5 & 1x C6-0. Same configuration as 1st stage
3rd stage: 1x C6-7 gap staged from central motor of second stage.
I used 1/16" plexiglass fins on 2nd and 3rd stage. From a distance, you could hardly see them. Very interested if this finless version will work. I have 3 of the 1/100 Estes kits and would be willing to build 1 of those as a 3 stage with finless 2nd and 3rd stages.
Could it be this will work? Is Lakeroadster the Kwisatz Haderach?
lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
My concern with the 2nd stage flash pan ignition was stage separation occurring prior to motor ignition due to rapid pressurization when the powder ignites.
The fuse eliminates that issue.
heada
Well-Known Member
Go to that place where you dare not go......there you will find him.
But I want on board footage of the booster section blowing off with the burning interstage ring blowing off right behind it! Maximum scale pointage! My expectations are super high!
We safety dancing zealots find this place...terrifying. Kill the abomination...get out of my mindsim!
boatgeek
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Simple! Quick fuse from the center booster motor to a cross-shaped flash pan under the second stage motors. It's probably slightly easier to prep than multiple fuses to all of the second stage motors.
lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
Part of my concern is the canted fins. The rocket will be spinning (per the sim) at 960 rpm's at 1st stage burnout. I'm thinking that won't be to conducive to black powder loose in a flash pan.
Thoughts?
boatgeek
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That's a lot of RPM. I'd be pretty surprised if it got anywhere close to that, but that's just a mindsim talking. Regardless, it would be prudent to plan for that much spin just in case it does happen. I see two straightforward ways to handle this, depending on your preferences.
Option 1: Flashpans! Rather than a cross-shaped flash pan, set up five little cups of 18mm tubing at the top of Stage 1. These are sealed on the bottom, open on the top, and aligned with the 5 motors above so that they fit over the base of the motor. A little dollop of BP in each will do the job. Connect them in a cross shape with the quick fuse so that when the center one flashes off, the outboards go very shortly thereafter. Connect the center one with the center -0 motor in the first stage as previously discussed. At 0.1s/ft burn rate, all five will light nearly simultaneously in a blaze of glory suitable for @Daddyisabar's wildest dreams.
Option 2: Booooring!
Basically the same as Option 1 except that the fuses for the outboards lead direct to the motors instead of to flashpans. Those fuses will need to be secured to Stage 2 somehow.The big difference is where you do your prep. For Option 1, the prep for lighting Stage 2 happens entirely in the Stage 1 envelope. In Option 2, you have a hybrid of stuff that in Stage 2 (fuses for the outboards) and Stage 1 (fuse for the center). That said, I don't see any reason why you couldn't light the center motor on Stage 2 with standard gap staging, then have the outboard fuses lit by the staging charge on the center motor. That would eliminate the fuse to the Stage 1 center motor, likely removing another possible point of failure.
Option 2 is easier to build and probably easier to prep. Option 1 has more fire. The choice is left as an exercise for the student.
I would think any spin stabilization would have to be out of a tube or on a 45 degree smooth track like the spun stabilized mortars developed by the Axis in WWII. Those had many canted nozzles around the diameter. Not a big fan of spin for this rocket. It would ruin the on board video, making nerds subject to motion sickness loose thier cookies.
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Dream on, Dream on. Maybe tomorrow the good lord will take me away.That's a lot of RPM. I'd be pretty surprised if it got anywhere close to that, but that's just a mindsim talking. Regardless, it would be prudent to plan for that much spin just in case it does happen. I see two straightforward ways to handle this, depending on your preferences.
Option 1: Flashpans! Rather than a cross-shaped flash pan, set up five little cups of 18mm tubing at the top of Stage 1. These are sealed on the bottom, open on the top, and aligned with the 5 motors above so that they fit over the base of the motor. A little dollop of BP in each will do the job. Connect them in a cross shape with the quick fuse so that when the center one flashes off, the outboards go very shortly thereafter. Connect the center one with the center -0 motor in the first stage as previously discussed. At 0.1s/ft burn rate, all five will light nearly simultaneously in a blaze of glory suitable for @Daddyisabar's wildest dreams.
Option 2: Booooring!
The big difference is where you do your prep. For Option 1, the prep for lighting Stage 2 happens entirely in the Stage 1 envelope. In Option 2, you have a hybrid of stuff that in Stage 2 (fuses for the outboards) and Stage 1 (fuse for the center). That said, I don't see any reason why you couldn't light the center motor on Stage 2 with standard gap staging, then have the outboard fuses lit by the staging charge on the center motor. That would eliminate the fuse to the Stage 1 center motor, likely removing another possible point of failure.
Option 2 is easier to build and probably easier to prep. Option 1 has more fire. The choice is left as an exercise for the student.
heada
Well-Known Member
I think to be stable without fins, you'll need a good amount of base drag as well as some spin. A 1 or 2 degree cant on the fins may impart enough to get a few RPS (rotations per second). A trade off between video and RPS.
Tiny LES tractor motors! A moon lander ejected and sticks the landing! Damned the KISS principle!
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Neutronium95
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Maybe it's just my HPR brain, but I'd ve a lot more comfortable with uaing a timer hooked up to some MJG black powder motor starters than running fuses between motors and stages.
lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
Thanks @boatgeek , @heada and @Daddyisabar for sharing your thoughts, much appreciated.
<----- This guy likes the fuse idea! He's on the phone with the A.C.M.E. Rep.
<----- This guy likes the fuse idea! He's on the phone with the A.C.M.E. Rep.
LipRipr
Well-Known Member
Bout the coolest thing I’ve seen.
That is Top Notch Tech man!!!!
I’m in a whoa moment, sorry!
That is Top Notch Tech man!!!!
I’m in a whoa moment, sorry!
