Multi Stage Saturn V

lakeroadster

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Consider making only the center motor a -0, and the outboards -3. Then the flash pan ignites in an orderly manner from center to outboards. This has the added happy effect that you can use the outboards for chute deployment.
Genius.... torpedo chutes in the stuffer tubes.... :awesome:
 
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Daddyisabar

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And if you want to do a moon shot.. load it up with C6 motors in all the stages and an A motor in the 4th stage for a 2,800 foot apogee :shocked:

But the chances of finding all the parts would be Slim and Nun. Slim is still walking around at the launch site; the Nun went back to the convent.

View attachment 548375
Will 5xC6 get all that weight moving fast enough? 18mm composite motors on first stage?
 

heada

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I've never done flashpan inside a rocket... not sure I'd want to. If I were doing it, I'd use ultra fast burning paper fuse from one of the previous stage motors to the 5 next stage motors.


It lights VERY easily (as easily as BP) and burns at 0.1sec per foot. 5 sections from the central booster motor to the 5 next stage motors is how I'd do it.
 

lakeroadster

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I've never done flashpan inside a rocket... not sure I'd want to. If I were doing it, I'd use ultra fast burning paper fuse from one of the previous stage motors to the 5 next stage motors.


It lights VERY easily (as easily as BP) and burns at 0.1sec per foot. 5 sections from the central booster motor to the 5 next stage motors is how I'd do it.
Thanks for the suggestion.

Do you just insert these into the motor and secure with ignitor plug, or secure them with masking tape to the motor?

Just curious if there are any techniques to ensure success.
 

Daddyisabar

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Reply to English NCO post above:

No Blackadders here! Jolly good, we are going to win this bloody thing here in 1917!

I will always celebrate Empire Day, to remember all those who so gallantly gave thier lives to keep China British!

Mindsiming really sucks. I just got a visit from my inner RSO. Now he is questioning if there is enough velocity off the rail (not rod) to successfuly flash pan that cluster stage in a vertical position. He reminded me of all the high power staging requirements - tiltometers and such. Well I told him to get lost, that he was nothing but a Debbie Downer. Talk to the hand cause the rest ain't listening! He said "What are words for, cause no one listens anymore...Do you hear me...Do you care?" I said Hush, hush, keep it down now, voices carry...shut up! Shut up!

Like Das Boot, just have to get the weight out of the back end! Just a few more things for the Chief to fix and we will get one shot at it. The old man had a good plan...but the problem was that it had to work.

Old dudes, move out of the early 1980's, no matter how much you think they rocked! You've been RICKROLLED! :)
 
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Daddyisabar

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I've never done flashpan inside a rocket... not sure I'd want to. If I were doing it, I'd use ultra fast burning paper fuse from one of the previous stage motors to the 5 next stage motors.


It lights VERY easily (as easily as BP) and burns at 0.1sec per foot. 5 sections from the central booster motor to the 5 next stage motors is how I'd do it.
Yes Mr. RSO, I ditched the internal flash plan for quick fuse!

Again, with fuse, how do you get (guarantee) the upper stage motors to light simultaneously given the slighty different burn rates of the booster C6 0s?

An internal flash pan blowing off a burning interstage ring would be so awesome. EXTRA SCALE POINTS!
 

heada

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Thanks for the suggestion.

Do you just insert these into the motor and secure with ignitor plug, or secure them with masking tape to the motor?

Just curious if there are any techniques to ensure success.
In the motor, I expose 1/4" of the match inside and put that into the motor nozzle. That is secured with an Estes plug if there is room and if not, a wad of wadding and masking tape over the nozzle. For the booster ejection end, similarly expose 1/4" of the match and bundle all of them together with the exposed ends into the ejection area. That is then secured with masking tape.
 

heada

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Yes Mr. RSO, I ditched the internal flash plan for quick fuse!

Again, with fuse, how do you get (guarantee) the upper stage motors to light simultaneously given the slighty different burn rates of the booster C6 0s?

An internal flash pan blowing off a burning interstage ring would be so awesome. EXTRA SCALE POINTS!
I used only a single booster motor so that all staging is based on that motor. The others were standard delay motors. I also wrapped the paper fuse (not quick match!!, that's regulated) with aluminum tape so that if the booster motor didn't fire for any reason, the delay motors didn't light the paper fuse

1st stage: 4x C6-5 & 1x C6-0. C6-5 had parachutes in their tubes and the C6-0 had the paper fuse taped into the ejection well.
2nd stage: 4x C6-5 & 1x C6-0. Same configuration as 1st stage
3rd stage: 1x C6-7 gap staged from central motor of second stage.

I used 1/16" plexiglass fins on 2nd and 3rd stage. From a distance, you could hardly see them. Very interested if this finless version will work. I have 3 of the 1/100 Estes kits and would be willing to build 1 of those as a 3 stage with finless 2nd and 3rd stages.
 

Daddyisabar

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My concern with the 2nd stage flash pan ignition was stage separation occurring prior to motor ignition due to rapid pressurization when the powder ignites.

The fuse eliminates that issue.
But I want on board footage of the booster section blowing off with the burning interstage ring blowing off right behind it! Maximum scale pointage! My expectations are super high!
 

boatgeek

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But I want on board footage of the booster section blowing off with the burning interstage ring blowing off right behind it! Maximum scale pointage! My expectations are super high!
Simple! Quick fuse from the center booster motor to a cross-shaped flash pan under the second stage motors. It's probably slightly easier to prep than multiple fuses to all of the second stage motors.
 

lakeroadster

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Simple! Quick fuse from the center booster motor to a cross-shaped flash pan under the second stage motors. It's probably slightly easier to prep than multiple fuses to all of the second stage motors.

Part of my concern is the canted fins. The rocket will be spinning (per the sim) at 960 rpm's at 1st stage burnout. I'm thinking that won't be to conducive to black powder loose in a flash pan.

Thoughts?
 

boatgeek

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Part of my concern is the canted fins. The rocket will be spinning (per the sim) at 960 rpm's at 1st stage burnout. I'm thinking that won't be to conducive to black powder loose in a flash pan.

Thoughts?
That's a lot of RPM. I'd be pretty surprised if it got anywhere close to that, but that's just a mindsim talking. Regardless, it would be prudent to plan for that much spin just in case it does happen. I see two straightforward ways to handle this, depending on your preferences.

Option 1: Flashpans! Rather than a cross-shaped flash pan, set up five little cups of 18mm tubing at the top of Stage 1. These are sealed on the bottom, open on the top, and aligned with the 5 motors above so that they fit over the base of the motor. A little dollop of BP in each will do the job. Connect them in a cross shape with the quick fuse so that when the center one flashes off, the outboards go very shortly thereafter. Connect the center one with the center -0 motor in the first stage as previously discussed. At 0.1s/ft burn rate, all five will light nearly simultaneously in a blaze of glory suitable for @Daddyisabar's wildest dreams.

Option 2: Booooring! :D Basically the same as Option 1 except that the fuses for the outboards lead direct to the motors instead of to flashpans. Those fuses will need to be secured to Stage 2 somehow.

The big difference is where you do your prep. For Option 1, the prep for lighting Stage 2 happens entirely in the Stage 1 envelope. In Option 2, you have a hybrid of stuff that in Stage 2 (fuses for the outboards) and Stage 1 (fuse for the center). That said, I don't see any reason why you couldn't light the center motor on Stage 2 with standard gap staging, then have the outboard fuses lit by the staging charge on the center motor. That would eliminate the fuse to the Stage 1 center motor, likely removing another possible point of failure.

Option 2 is easier to build and probably easier to prep. Option 1 has more fire. The choice is left as an exercise for the student. :D
 

Daddyisabar

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I would think any spin stabilization would have to be out of a tube or on a 45 degree smooth track like the spun stabilized mortars developed by the Axis in WWII. Those had many canted nozzles around the diameter. Not a big fan of spin for this rocket. It would ruin the on board video, making nerds subject to motion sickness loose thier cookies. :)
 
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Daddyisabar

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That's a lot of RPM. I'd be pretty surprised if it got anywhere close to that, but that's just a mindsim talking. Regardless, it would be prudent to plan for that much spin just in case it does happen. I see two straightforward ways to handle this, depending on your preferences.

Option 1: Flashpans! Rather than a cross-shaped flash pan, set up five little cups of 18mm tubing at the top of Stage 1. These are sealed on the bottom, open on the top, and aligned with the 5 motors above so that they fit over the base of the motor. A little dollop of BP in each will do the job. Connect them in a cross shape with the quick fuse so that when the center one flashes off, the outboards go very shortly thereafter. Connect the center one with the center -0 motor in the first stage as previously discussed. At 0.1s/ft burn rate, all five will light nearly simultaneously in a blaze of glory suitable for @Daddyisabar's wildest dreams.

Option 2: Booooring! :D Basically the same as Option 1 except that the fuses for the outboards lead direct to the motors instead of to flashpans. Those fuses will need to be secured to Stage 2 somehow.

The big difference is where you do your prep. For Option 1, the prep for lighting Stage 2 happens entirely in the Stage 1 envelope. In Option 2, you have a hybrid of stuff that in Stage 2 (fuses for the outboards) and Stage 1 (fuse for the center). That said, I don't see any reason why you couldn't light the center motor on Stage 2 with standard gap staging, then have the outboard fuses lit by the staging charge on the center motor. That would eliminate the fuse to the Stage 1 center motor, likely removing another possible point of failure.

Option 2 is easier to build and probably easier to prep. Option 1 has more fire. The choice is left as an exercise for the student. :D
Dream on, Dream on. Maybe tomorrow the good lord will take me away. :)
 

heada

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I think to be stable without fins, you'll need a good amount of base drag as well as some spin. A 1 or 2 degree cant on the fins may impart enough to get a few RPS (rotations per second). A trade off between video and RPS.
 
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