Multi Stage Saturn V

Bravo52

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Lots of post on this topic...here's one:

 

lakeroadster

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Trying to keep motors per stage true to the original
  • 1st stage: 5 motor C6 cluster
  • 2nd stage: 5 motor B6 cluster
  • 3rd stage: Single B6 motor
  • 4th stage: Single A3 motor
1st and 2nd stages use GDS and canted fins to induce stability
3rd and 4th stages use roll stability

The trick is keeping the apogee low enough to find all the pieces parts... but having enough thrust to get it stable off the rod (or out of the silo).

2022-11-29 OR FLight Sim Saturn V 1-150 Scale 4 Stage Model Rocket.jpg
2022-11-29 OR Plot Saturn V 1-150 Scale 4 Stage Model Rocket.jpg
 
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lakeroadster

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Here's a bit more conservative approach. B Motors and A motors should be visually more exciting due to the stages igniting at low altitudes.

This one has all the internal tubes too.

I canted the fins to get some roll stability and added the base drag hack to the other stages.

When the 4th stage ignites it pulls 3 small chutes out. The 4th stage motor is deep enough in the LEM transition that Krushnic Effect should render it useless in regard to thrust.

We'll call this one the Apollo 13 version, where we use the LEM motor... :dontknow:

At least that's the plan....

2022-11-29 OR FLight Sim Saturn V 1-150 Scale 4 Stage Model Rocket.jpg 2022-11-29 OR Plot Saturn V 1-150 Scale 4 Stage Model Rocket.jpg 2022-11-29 OR FLight Sim Saturn V 1-150 Scale 1st Stage.jpg 2022-11-29 OR FLight Sim Saturn V 1-150 Scale 2nd Stage.jpg 2022-11-29 OR FLight Sim Saturn V 1-150 Scale 3rd Stage.jpg 2022-11-29 OR FLight Sim Saturn V 1-150 Scale 4th Stage.jpg

1st Stage.jpg 2nd Stage.jpg 3rd Stage.jpg 4th Stage.jpg
 
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boatgeek

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That looks like lots of fun. You'll want to launch with other people so you can task them with tracking the various bits and pieces falling from the sky. I'm envisioning a Reservoir Dogs-like scenario:

Lakeroadster: You're Mr. Pink, first stage. You, you're Mr. Blue, second stage. And you're Mr. Green, third stage. I'll track the capsule.
Mr. Pink: Why do I have to track the first stage?
Lakeroadster: Because if everyone got the stage they wanted, we'd have four people tracking the capsule and stages 1-3 will be lost forever!

I think that you'll want to delete the base drag hack cones for stages that haven't deployed yet. Otherwise their drag gets all tangled up in the whole simulation. It might mean making a raft of different files.
 

lakeroadster

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Cheap and Dirty (CHAD) staging 5 to 5?

All the stages have individual extension tubes from each booster motor, up to the next stage corresponding motor.

Which brings up a good point. 1st stage is 5 motors. 2nd stage is 5 motors.
  • What's the chances of all the 1st stage motors stopping at the same time and then lighting the 2nd stage at the same time?
  • Would it be better to do a flash pan arrangement at the base of the second stage, with a little black powder, such that whichever 1st stage motor expires 1st, it will light the flash pan powder which will light all the motors? Basically, just a pan, with the 5 tubes out the bottom. Place a piece of tissue paper across the bottom of the pan, then some black powder. Whichever 1st stage motor belches fire 1st lights the flash pan charge.
 

Daddyisabar

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Chance of 5 clustered Estes BP motors successfully chad staging 5 clustered second stage motors above. Mindsim engaged. Slim and none...and Slim is leaving town!

Yes Mr. RSO, flashpan ignition for upper stage cluster ignition is a good idea! :)
 

Neutronium95

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There are two approaches that I can see as potential options for building a scale looking multistage Saturn V.

The first would be to use thrust vectored motors in the second and third stages. There aren't really any kits for it currently available, but there are a decent number of people who have designed and built their own systems. It also makes doing a 5 motor cluster on the second stage a lot harder.

The other option would be to design some sort of flip out fin mechanism for the second and third stages. You'd lose a bit of the scale look after staging, and a cluster in the second stage would still pose issues with fitting the mechanism in around the motors.
 

lakeroadster

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I think that you'll want to delete the base drag hack cones for stages that haven't deployed yet. Otherwise their drag gets all tangled up in the whole simulation. It might mean making a raft of different files.
Sage advice... so it shall be written, so it shall be done. :computer:

2022-11-29 OR FLight Sim Saturn V 1-150 Scale 1st Stage.jpg
2022-11-29 OR FLight Sim Saturn V 1-150 Scale 2nd Stage.jpg 2022-11-29 OR FLight Sim Saturn V 1-150 Scale 3rd Stage.jpg 2022-11-29 OR FLight Sim Saturn V 1-150 Scale 4th Stage.jpg

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Worth noting: No GDS is used. The rear fins are canted to induce roll stability. If the fins are revised to being straight, the flight apogee drops to 245 feet

2022-11-29 OR FLight Sim Saturn V 1-150 Scale 1st Stage Straight Non-Canted Fins.jpg
 
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lakeroadster

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And if you want to do a moon shot.. load it up with C6 motors in all the stages and an A motor in the 4th stage for a 2,800 foot apogee :shocked:

But the chances of finding all the parts would be Slim and Nun. Slim is still walking around at the launch site; the Nun went back to the convent.

2022-11-30 OR FLight Sim Saturn V 1-150 Scale 4 Stage Model Rocket.jpg
 
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lakeroadster

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There are two approaches that I can see as potential options for building a scale looking multistage Saturn V.

The first would be to use thrust vectored motors in the second and third stages. There aren't really any kits for it currently available, but there are a decent number of people who have designed and built their own systems. It also makes doing a 5 motor cluster on the second stage a lot harder.

The other option would be to design some sort of flip out fin mechanism for the second and third stages. You'd lose a bit of the scale look after staging, and a cluster in the second stage would still pose issues with fitting the mechanism in around the motors.

Only the 1st stage needs fins. All the other stages are stable based on roll stability and base drag, that's what the simulations reveal.
 

lakeroadster

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You have blinded me with Science! You need a lot of velocity and spin to make those upper stages stable enough with out lovely pop out fins. FINS RULE! May all your motors ignite and stage simultaneously!
Ever seen a rocket powered cone or pyramid fly? Fins, we don't need no stinking fins. Behold the awesome power of base drag.

But in any event.. the proof will be determined after the launch button is pushed.
 

Daddyisabar

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In my mindsim I asked the Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother "Has any man ever Chad staged a 5 to 5 cluster?" She said "Many men have tried to transmute the 5 by 5 staged cluster, they have all died!"

Silly Bene Gesserit! If the machines say it will work, go for it! Trust the Machines!
 
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Daddyisabar

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Ever seen a rocket powered cone or pyramid fly? Fins, we don't need no stinking fins. Behold the awesome power of base drag.

But in any event.. the proof will be determined after the launch button is pushed.
Cones fly but the base must be wide and the CG 2/3'the way up from the bottom. Otherwise it is no good, stinking pop out fins!

Singing like Huey Lewis: "The power of drag is a curious thing..."
 

lakeroadster

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In my mindsim I asked the Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother "Has any man ever Chad staged a 5 to 5 cluster?" She said "Many men have to transmute the 5 by 5 staged cluster, they have all died!"

Silly Bene Gesserit! If the machines say it will work, go for it! Trust the Machines!
Trust, but verify.

The internal flash pan concept seems plausible.

Spitballing here:
Three of the five 1st stage motors would have a 3 second delay, 2 of the 1st stage motors would be boosters, and thus either would ignite the flash pan. Vent holes would be drilled through the fuselage to prevent stage separation upon flash pan ignition.​
 

Daddyisabar

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Trust, but verify.

The internal flash pan concept seems plausible.

Spitballing here:
Three of the five 1st stage motors would have a 3 second delay, 2 of the 1st stage motors would be boosters, and thus either would ignite the flash pan. Vent holes would be drilled through the fuselage to prevent stage separation upon flash pan ignition.​
The dark side is strong with this one. Let it flow, it makes you strong!
 

boatgeek

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Trust, but verify.

The internal flash pan concept seems plausible.

Spitballing here:
Three of the five 1st stage motors would have a 3 second delay, 2 of the 1st stage motors would be boosters, and thus either would ignite the flash pan. Vent holes would be drilled through the fuselage to prevent stage separation upon flash pan ignition.​
Consider making only the center motor a -0, and the outboards -3. Then the flash pan ignites in an orderly manner from center to outboards. This has the added happy effect that you can use the outboards for chute deployment.
 
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