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Winston

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The recently much talked about vaccines use a new mechanism never before approved for widespread human use. Normally, as stated below, vaccines using the long-used mechanism take up to 10 years of testing to prove no long-term harm.

Could mRNA COVID-19 vaccines be dangerous in the long-term?
‘There is a race to get the public vaccinated, so we are willing to take more risk.' [Uh, "WE"?! - W]
NOVEMBER 17, 2020


[snip]

In order to receive Food and Drug Administration approval, the companies will have to prove there are no immediate or short-term negative health effects from taking the vaccines. But when the world begins inoculating itself with these completely new and revolutionary vaccines, it will know virtually nothing about their long-term effects.

[snip]

When Moderna was just finishing its Phase I trial, The Independent wrote about the vaccine and described it this way: “It uses a sequence of genetic RNA material produced in a lab that, when injected into your body, must invade your cells and hijack your cells’ protein-making machinery called ribosomes to produce the viral components that subsequently train your immune system to fight the virus.”

“In this case, Moderna’s mRNA-1273 is programmed to make your cells produce the coronavirus’ infamous coronavirus spike protein that gives the virus its crown-like appearance (corona is crown in Latin) for which it is named,” wrote The Independent.
Brosh said that this does not mean the vaccine changes people’s genetic code. Rather, he said it is more like a USB device (the mRNA) that is inserted into a computer (your body). It does not impact the hard drive of the computer but runs a certain program.

But he acknowledged that there are unique and unknown risks to messenger RNA vaccines, including local and systemic inflammatory responses that could lead to autoimmune conditions.

An article published by the National Center for Biotechnology Information, a division of the National Institutes of Health, said other risks include the bio-distribution and persistence of the induced immunogen expression; possible development of auto-reactive antibodies
[that would cause an auto-immune disorder where the body's healthy cells are attacked as in HIV/AIDS - W]; and toxic effects of any non-native nucleotides and delivery system components.

[snip]

Classical vaccines were designed to take 10 years to develop. I don’t think the world can wait for a classical vaccine.”

But when asked if she would take the vaccine right away, she responded: “I won’t be taking it immediately – probably not for at least the coming year,” she told the Post. “We have to wait and see whether it really works.”
 

Winston

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NOVEMBER 11, 2020
Everything You Don't Want to Know About Covid Vaccines


[snip]

Many in the field see the potential for mRNA to deliver superior vaccines because they can generate T-Cell responses as well as the conventional immune responses to viral particles. They are also easier and cheaper to manufacture, and may be stable at room temperature for a week...

One concern is the possibility that mRNA vaccines could trigger a generalized immune response (interferon, etc.) rather than just a specific immune response to a specific virus (antibodies, etc.).

Our immune system is extremely complex and I make no claim to have a complete understanding of it. That said, the immune system has several levels of response. A conventional vaccine triggers the production of a specific antibody that "recognizes" a specific invader. In other cases, the immune system can activate an "all hands on deck" generalized response.

The danger is that the mRNA could trigger an "all hands on deck" response that could then cascade into autoimmune disorders in which the immune system goes haywire and starts attacking the body's own cells rather than limiting its destructive capabilities to foreign viruses, bacteria, etc.

One of my MD correspondents recently sent me an email which encapsulates these concerns:

"I've been reading about the Pfizer vaccine.

I've known for a while that it is an mRNA vaccine but it just hit me that it will be the first mRNA vaccine ever approved for human use.

If COVID was a 'Steven King' (kills-everyone) virus, sure, go for it--prevent the deaths and take what comes.

But mortality is low, acute treatments are improving, transmission is preventable, and the greatest risk now appears to be longer term morbidity.

mRNA vaccines by the very nature of their components elicit an interferon response that triggers generalized autoimmunity. This may, in fact, be part of the mechanism of longer term morbidity associated with COVID infection.

Mass introduction of mRNA strands into the populations may indeed reduce acute COVID morbidity and mortality, but how many autoimmune complications will result?

No one knows.

It's never been done before--ever.

It would take years of carefully controlled and limited trials across all ethnic groups to find out.

Is the net good from a vaccine that fewer people die up front but a whole lot more folks suffer long term problems on the back end--especially (as seems likely) boosters will be required.

Shouldn't there be a discussion before 'immunity passports' are mandated?

For that matter, shouldn't we discover how long natural immunity lasts before trying to provoke induced immunity?

I'm dumbstruck that, with the proposed approval timetable, this path is even being considered at a population level, let alone considered without an extensive discussion.

First, do no harm."

Indeed. And then there's the self-interest of those seeking rapid approval of the vaccines. As noted in the independent.co.uk article referenced above:

"But perhaps the most important question to ask about Moderna's new messenger RNA vaccine is not scientific nor technical but one of ethics and morality. When it comes to the United States and its private healthcare system, pharmaceutical companies have a long and sordid history of putting profits over people and human lives."

Why would anyone trust that Big Pharma corporations will act in the public good rather than in pursuit of maximizing profits?
 

Winston

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mRNA vaccines, a primer: How they work, why they’re “cleaner” than traditional vaccines, and why they might prove catastrophic in a rushed coronavirus response
25 May 2020


The technology holds great promise but also presents significant risks which are not yet fully known.

Summary of what’s in this article:

– mRNA vaccines promise an intriguing new platform for immunization that does not rely on the growth or harvesting of pathogens from animal tissue. This offers mRNA vaccines several key advantages over traditional vaccines.

– Research into mRNA vaccines is still in its infancy, even though various biotech pioneers have been working on ways to achieve mRNA vaccines for around two decades. It is very likely that yet more decades of research will be required to achieve acceptable levels of safety and efficacy.

– mRNA vaccines can be produced far more rapidly, safely and uniformly than traditional vaccines. Production can be easily scaled up, and there is zero risk of introducing “live” pathogens into the body of the patient, since these vaccines don’t use weakened pathogens in the first place.

– There are very real risks associated with mRNA vaccines including “enhanced” inflammation and auto-immune reactions, where the body’s cells are inadvertently programmed to attack critical proteins required for normal health (such as hormones).

– The profit-motivated rush to deploy mRNA vaccines to prevent the spread of the Wuhan coronavirus is causing regulators and researchers to skip (or accelerate) many critical steps in quality control and clinical trials. This is likely to result in catastrophic consequences — unintended side effects — if such vaccines are granted approval for widespread deployment without proper long-term clinical trials.

– mRNA vaccines could be maliciously exploited to weaponize vaccines to target critical physiological functions in humans. This is similar in effect to “RNA interference” technology which is a gene suppressing innovation that has been studied for use as an insect-killing pesticide technology in crops. Although the mechanisms of mRNA vaccines and RNA interference technology are very different, they can achieve many of the same outcomes such as induced infertility or death in targeted organisms, which could include humans. Technically, this could also be exploited to target specific genetic subgroups of humans such as those of African descent.

– The best current application of mRNA vaccines seems to be found in personalized medicine cancer treatment applications, where “vaccines” are customized to teach the body’s immune system to attack and kill cancer cells.

– A reasonable tolerance risk for mRNA vaccine side effects would be proportional to the mortality risk of the pathogen or disease condition the vaccine is treating. For example, if stage IV cancer kills 80% of patients, and a personalized mRNA cancer vaccine cures 50% of patients while killing 5% of patients, the lives-saved-to-patients-killed ratio is 10:1, which would arguably be a reasonable risk to assume. However, if an mRNA coronavirus vaccine is widely given to healthy individuals who are at very low risk of mortality to begin with, then if the mRNA vaccine kills 1 in 1,000 of those people (for example), the vaccine might cause far higher mortality figures than the pathogen itself.
 

Winston

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Frontiers in Immunology, 27 March 2019
Advances in mRNA Vaccines for Infectious Diseases
Cuiling Zhang, Giulietta Maruggi, Hu Shan1 and Junwei Li
College of Veterinary Medicine, Qingdao Agricultural University, Qingdao, China
Glaxo Smith Kline, Rockville, MD, United States


 

modeltrains

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While this is good news, many questions remain. We don't yet know how long protection against the virus will last with this vaccine. We also don't know for sure whether this vaccine is safe and effective in different types of people, such as pregnant women, the elderly, or those with a chronic illness. (how about all the people like me, who have more than one?)
Once a vaccine is deployed "in the real world," we'll start to understand its true effectiveness. In practice, this is likely to be different to its efficacy in highly controlled clinical trials.
Thus far, we can only say the Moderna vaccine prevents COVID symptoms, as only volunteers who developed symptoms in this trial were analyzed. We don't know for sure if it can prevent infection altogether.
 

modeltrains

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Most vaccines are very safe for most people. But vaccine safety presents a big question for a small group of people with specific risk factors like cancer or chronic illness. At this point there is simply no safety data on COVID-19 vaccines in such people. Hopefully there will soon be clear answers.
 

cbwho

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Already 100s of thousands have been vaccinated with the trials.

The RNA vaccines are well designed.
 

cwbullet

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Don't jump to conclusions. Wait till the inclusion criteria comes forward and see if you are a candidate. If you are not or have concerns, discuss them with your physician.
 

cerving

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mRNA replication is a well-understood mechanism, I have no doubt that they will be at least as safe as other similar antiviral vaccines. Biology does not depend on conspiracy theories.
 

BDB

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These will likely be much safer than traditional vaccines. Traditional vaccines are complex mixtures of viral fragments, proteins, and glycoproteins, often grown in chicken eggs, that produce a desired immune response. These new mRNA vaccines give one's body the ability to make only one protein of the virus, so it will be impossible to catch covid from the vaccine, like people claim happens with the flu vaccine.

And since the injection will contain pure mRNA that will produce a single protein, there is less of a chance for off-target effects caused by the hodge-podge of proteins that are in a typical vaccine.
 

Bat-mite

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We know that there are COVID long-haulers, that these are people who were otherwise healthy prior to getting COVID. They are discovering that up to 33% of COVID-positive people are showing long-term lung and heart damage. Also, that the symptoms of loss of taste and smell are due to brain stem infection. I figure I'm better off with the vaccine.
 

shockie

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I would believe all of this even more if the Chinese told us it was true........I personally think it's biological asymmetrical warfare.....Just as they have been transshipping fentanyl thru Mexico into the USA for the past 10 years. I wonder how they would feel if we did the same to them?

Historically speaking, does anybody remember the heady days of the Cold War between the old communist USSR and the USA? Well we didn't have every other politician saying, "yeah let's move ALL of our manufacturing capacity" to a communist nation. That will be good for the American people and our National Security.

But that's exactly what ALL of our so-called leaders , both Republican and Democrat/Socialist and Corporate Globalists did for the past 40 years.

What could possibly go wrong with that great idea? I think people are beginning to see the consequences of those decisions.

History....it's all just repeating itself.
 
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Johnly

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My wife earned her PhD. in Cellular Biology and was a ABSA registered biosafety professional before her retirement from Oregon Regional Primate Center where she was the Biosafety Officer. This facility has numerous BSL3 and ABSL3 labs where all sorts of nasty bugs are evaluated and experimented with. She is still called on to consult on safety aspects of protocols undertaken by hospitals and research organizations. On an expert level, I would say that she is at least a 9 on a scale of 10 in the field of virology. mRNA vaccines are fragile prior to being administered, and if mishandled you effectively receive a placebo. They are planning on shipping the vaccine with a temperature tracker to detect improper storage prior to use.
The mRNA would be her first choice for personal vaccination.
 
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blueapplepaste

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Which is a great argument for all of use who are otherwise healthy, and able to take a vaccine to get one. So we can get herd immunity to protect those who cannot take the vaccine for whatever reason!
 

cerving

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I would be more concerned about the number of people who WON'T take it, rather than the ones who CAN'T take it. Herd immunity is a fragile thing... it doesn't take a whole lot of anti-vaxxers to blow it for the rest of the unvaccinated population. It doesn't help that the mRNA vaccines are relatively difficult to transport... I think we will definitely see populations that are vaccinated with compromised vaccines with varying levels of protection. For those of us that live in larger population areas that's probably not going to be an issue, but for sparsely populated rural areas without the same medical resources it could be a problem.
 

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