# more regulation?

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#### BlueNinja

##### Well-Known Member
After todays launch in Lawrence, I decided to check out teh hobby shops in the phone directory. 3 entries for George's hobby shop. Must have to be darn good to have 3 entries. They might have AT motors, so I checked them out. I went in and asked the owner if they had any Aerotech motors, he said that (his opinion) they were probably going out of business because of hte Patriot act. (/his opinion) I asked why, and he said "Starting July 1st, anyting over an E motor you need a permit for." I was just wanting to know if you guys have heard anything about this, as I seriously doubt it. Anyways, he didn't have any aerotech stuff

Blue

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
I heard the same stupid remark from my local hobby dealer!

He was throughly convinced that his information was accurate and I had no idea what I was talking about.

He and, your dealer too, I think, got this "misinformation" at the latest hobby trade show.

Somebody is spreading lies out there and like most hobby dealers...if they don't hear it at a hobby trade show it cannot be true!

I want everyone out there to check your local hobby shops! PLEASE!

Find out if they all have the same WRONG information.

This sounds bad even though I know it's not true...but if the hobby shops think it is...well then for all practicle purposes...it will be true.

sandman

#### BlueNinja

##### Well-Known Member
Good, I have rockets to launch and with all the regulation anyways that makes it hard.

#### Donaldsrockets

##### Well-Known Member
I heard from my local hobby shop that even Estes motors were going to come under regulation like age restrictions, etc.

I personally didn't believe it and like sandman said it may have come from a trade show.

The only restrictions I know of is that anything that contains more than 62.5 grams of propellant will require a LEUP if ATFE NPRM 968 passes.

Even so, I think you would still be able to fly up to G motors in that case.

#### rstaff3

##### Oddroc-eteer
Wow, it amazing how rumors spread. My local hobby shop quit carrying AP motors when the supply lines dried up and may not resume. Not because of the legality but because I don't think they sold enough. I think they's rather focus on RC stuff (which may have it's turn in the regulatory mill).

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
GUY!!

We as the rocket community must stop this now...I thought it was isolated!

We need some rumor control FAST!!

sandman

#### rstaff3

##### Oddroc-eteer
The guy I know who attends the hobby trade shows as hobby dealer doesn't seem to pick up on these odd rumors. Very strange.

#### Donaldsrockets

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by rstaff3
I think they's rather focus on RC stuff (which may have it's turn in the regulatory mill).

I agree. My hobby shop is the same way. They only sell Estes kits and the largest motors they sell are the Estes E9's.

They deal with mostly RC cars. There have been noise complaints associated with RC cars, planes, etc. RC plane flying may come under regulation someday.

I also heard a new hobby shop opened in my area so tomorrow I'm heading down there to check it out. I heard they have AT kits in stock.

#### BlueNinja

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by rstaff3
Wow, it amazing how rumors spread. My local hobby shop quit carrying AP motors when the supply lines dried up and may not resume. Not because of the legality but because I don't think they sold enough. I think they's rather focus on RC stuff (which may have it's turn in the regulatory mill).
Yup, that's why my hobby shop doesn't sell AT motors- no buying. If he stocked G64s and F20s, I'd probably keep him ordering if he would carry them, but I would be the only person buying, maybe if he had some F20s in there for a month or so others would buy them and he would stock up...

yesssss... my evil plan is coming...

#### Gus

##### Well-Known Member
I just PM'd Joe Burger and Narprez and asked them to weigh in on this.

I'd be interested in hearing other vendors' viewpoints as well.

And do rocketry vendors have a trade association? If not, maybe it's about time you all formed one. Perhaps organized businessmen would have more clout than organized hobbyists.

#### GuyNoir

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Gus
I just PM'd Joe Burger and Narprez and asked them to weigh in on this.
Folks,

(a) I appreciate your bringing this kind of thing to my attention.

(b) We have connections and resources to help in this kind of situation

(c) I can't act on the information you've provided here. I need more specifics, i.e:

name, address, phone number, etc. of the person(s) making these kinds of claims;

source of their information, i.e. did they get this information from a local fire marshall, someone in their distributor network, directly from a rocket company, etc.

(d) Please email me privately with any of these kinds of details and I'll try to follow up. You can send email to either:

president - at - nar - dot - org

or

mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net

or leave me a private message here.

(e) Almost invariably, these kinds of rumors tend to be unsubstantiated, and unless we can find the facts to present to NAR/TRA counsel, or our legislative liasion, John Kyte, we're not going to get anywhere.

(f) Thanks again for the information and your patience. These regulatory things take time, and I know it's tough to wait when the uncertainty is high.

#### BlueNinja

##### Well-Known Member
What action would be taken in this circumstance?

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
It's very difficult to give specifics.

I called another hobby shop that carries mostly R/C and a few rocket items in the Detroit area.

His comments and the comments from my local hobby shop were similar, actually almost verbatum to the first post. Terms like:

"I heard that"
"Aerotech is bankrupt and closing it's doors"
"Patriot Act"
"as of July 1st anything above an E will require a permit".

It sounds like they all got the same disinformation.

And they believed it.

We need a clear and concise "Hand out" something in writing other than our word against what they heard at a hobby show.

Hey if it was heard at a hobby show it must be true.

The remarks are too similar, that's what got my ears perked up, the similarity!

I will try to dig deeper.

sandman

#### BlueNinja

##### Well-Known Member
That's exactly what I heard, except the bankrupt part.

Hmm.

Blue

#### edwardw

##### Well-Known Member
Sandman,

I agree, a flyer would be nice to hand out. Maybe Mr. Bundick could draft a letter. (I think they would take it seriously from the president of NAR) We could deliver it to local hobby shops and hand out at launches to the new people so they can be confident we will be around for a while.

Edward

#### DynaSoar

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Blue_Ninja_150
What action would be taken in this circumstance?
It depends on where the rumor started. If it came from someone with AFTE, then it's very important to find out the specifics and report it. The judge wants to know of any instance of ATFE doing things like this, since they have already by forming a regulation without due process. Obviously the judge thinks they might again.

Do find out the specifics and report them to narprez if you can. I'd also suggest contacting the makers of motors carried by any shop that makes this claim, so the maker (who has the most to lose by this) can straighten out any confusion, or worst case, get their lawyers involved against those perpetrating this rumor.

#### Hospital_Rocket

##### Well-Known Member
With all the bad karma, I thought I'd chime in with something good...

Couple of days ago I was at a local hobby shop in Middletown, CT. looking to but some balsa. I sauntered over to the rockets display hust to poke aroud. Mind you that for the past two years it has been Estes & Quest. I had asked the owner a couple of years back about APCP and he told me it was hard to get and he was maxed out @ E.

As I walked uo to the aisle, something caught my eye. About ten nauseating purple hang tags -> each with the writing LOC on them! I asked the guy at the counter what was up with that and he told me he would love to sell MPR rocketry. Only thing was He still thought Aerotech was out of production!

Joe Burger take note: Amato's Toy and Hobby want's to sell your stuff!

This was some of the best news I have heard - there is hope. There are hobby dealers who are interested!

Call your local hobby shop, encourage them.

We can still own the sky....

Al

#### Joe Burger

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Hospital_Rocket

Joe Burger take note: Amato's Toy and Hobby want's to sell your stuff!
I have never heard of them. Have they approached us? Have they researched distributors? What type of products do they want to carry? So many questions.

Moving on to the subject of this thread:

What happens on July 1st? To our knowledge it only starts a new month. We have no idea what this is referring to. Business continues on as usual.

Sandman is correct. These rumors are out of control.

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
Sandman is correct. These rumors are out of control.
THAT is my point! We need rumor control...quickly!

In the words of Barney Fife, "Nip it! Nip it in the bud!"

sandman

#### ClusterWiz

##### Well-Known Member
What I have hurd from my dad (who got it from Gary Pletzer of Top Flight) is that on DECEMBER 1st. you will need a LEUP for anything above 62.5grams of APCP. But as of what I know Aerotech is betting back into production. They have come out with a new Redline propelant. FAST Redline, the I600 for the 38/720 case. and is planing to come out with more redline reloads for the larger motors. They are also planning on producing a one grain 38/120 case for Gs.

#### ghp3

##### Well-Known Member
What I have hurd from my dad (who got it from Gary Pletzer of Top Flight) is that on DECEMBER 1st. you will need a LEUP for anything above 62.5grams of APCP.
That is what you need now, isn't it? An LEUP for anything over 62.5 grams of APCP (or some G's and all H and above motors)

I'm willing to bet that confusion over the recent court decisions and Aerotech's bankruptcy and sale have created this.

George
NAR 83277
Tripoli Pittsburgh

#### shockwaveriderz

##### Well-Known Member
Fully assembled rocket motors of ANY size are considerd PADS and therefore are exempt from the ATF LEUP requiremnets.....per the very recent NAR/TRA vs ATF Court deceision.....Reloads are still a grey area.....

#### daveyfire

##### Piled Higher and Deeper
Originally posted by ClusterWiz
What I have [sic] hurd from my dad (who got it from Gary Pletzer of Top Flight) is that on DECEMBER 1st. you will need a LEUP for anything above 62.5grams of APCP.
That's just speculation. BATFE has to go through the PROPER NRPM procedure (that's what they got slammed for by the courts) to establish the limit at 62.5g before that ever happens. Who knows if it will be December 1st or October 1st or August 29th of next year or never... it's ATFE

Originally posted by ClusterWiz
They have come out with a new Redline [sic] propelant. FAST Redline, the I600 for the 38/720 case.
I think on the I600, they kept the propellant the same but moved it up to the 720 case and increased the initial Kn with a bigger core size. That's why it's still only an I motor (vis a vis the J420R, same case). But R&D is good, because it means more motors for us !

#### Joe Burger

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by daveyfire
I think on the I600, they kept the propellant the same but moved it up to the 720 case and increased the initial Kn with a bigger core size. That's why it's still only an I motor (vis a vis the J420R, same case). But R&D is good, because it means more motors for us !
Correct! The formulation has not changed and the core size is in fact larger.

#### shockwaveriderz

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by ClusterWiz
What I have hurd from my dad (who got it from Gary Pletzer of Top Flight) is that on DECEMBER 1st. you will need a LEUP for anything above 62.5grams of APCP.

This would only be true IF NPRM968 goes into effect in Decemeber which is highly unlikely at this point.

First of all the ATF as required by law, has not even published its required responses it received concerning this NPRM968.

Secondly, I have no doubt that the NAR/TRA will sue the ATF to prevent this from even taking effect........as the NPRM968 is clearly flawed on several important points....

#### DavRedf

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by sandman
THAT is my point! We need rumor control...quickly!

In the words of Barney Fife, "Nip it! Nip it in the bud!"

sandman
Start counter rumours. ( anyone go to trade shows?)

Dont you just love NARs answer?

David

#### Chilly

##### Well-Known Member
I remember last year, the local hobby stores were trying to tell me that I wouldn't be able to buy ANY motors, even BP, once HSA went into effect. That, on top of charging way over retail, made me write them off as a bunch of bozos. I'm better off making the road trip to Magnum anyway!

#### cdma77

Guys,

I think it is time for all of you to start considering building your own motors. I do and it is not hard or expesnsive. You can bypass all of the regulator issues by building ANCP or sugar motors while saving yourself lots of $$! Jeff #### BlueNinja ##### Well-Known Member Originally posted by cdma77 Guys, I think it is time for all of you to start considering building your own motors. I do and it is not hard or expesnsive. You can bypass all of the regulator issues by building ANCP or sugar motors while saving yourself lots of$$\$ !

Jeff

I'd like to, but for us underage people it is kinda hard...

#### cdma77

##### Well-Known Member
If you are underage one can work with a mentor an adult to purchase chemicals and supervise the construction. Or one can go the sugar motor route and purchase KN03 and Dextrose and go that route. ANCP motors require a little more safe handling of the chemicals. Try these links:

https://www.space-rockets.com/cptech.html
https://www.nakka-rocketry.net/

Jeff