Moonburner?

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I always thought moonburner meant it was an end-burning grain like the Estes BP motors.
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What's the difference between a "moonburner" and "Endburner"? I assume they both result in long burn times.

An end-burner burns from one end to the other, just like a cigar-- or our Estes rocket motors... you light them on one end at the center, they burn forward and outward through the propellant grain til it reaches the casing wall, and then burns forward until the propellant is all consumed.

A core burner burns from the center outward... it burns along the full LENGTH of the grain, from the very forward end of the motor grains all the way to the nozzle, but burns from the center outward--- sorta like the way the map burned up at the beginning of every episode of "Bonanza"... Remember that or am I dating myself here?? LOL:) The shuttle SRB's work this way-- burning from the center outward, like sucking on a Lifesavers candy until its just a thin ring of material right before it's gone... the center hole gets bigger and bigger until the propellant is consumed.

A moon-burner has an off-center port or core in the grain or a C-slot or other such core... what this does is, by putting the core hole off-center, it creates a thicker "wall" of propellant to burn through before it gets to the casing wall and burns out, since at that point all the propellant would be consumed... When its lit, it starts burning straight outwards, just like a regular core-burner, but it soon reaches the wall of the casing where the propellant is thinnest-- nearest the core hole. Then it starts burning in an ever wider "C" shape until finally there's just a little crescent shaped piece of propellant left on the other side of the casing, opposite where the core hole was... this "crescent moon" shaped bit of propellant burns thinner and thinner until it burns off the casing liner wall, at which point the motor burns out since all the propellant has been burned.

It's basically a "cheat". The only way to increase the burn duration of a core burner with a given propellant, (assuming a basic propellant with a constant burn rate for all motors here-- modifying the burn rate will give a longer burn, but we don't want to confuse the issue-- for sake of argument, we'll stick with a single type of propellant with a given burn rate of "X" inches per second). Increasing the burn duration of a core burner with a given propellant requires a thicker propellant grain wall-thickness cross-section width... IE, thicker propellant. To do this with a core burner, means you have to increase the diameter of the casing so the propellant is thicker around the central core hole, or you have to reduce the diameter of the core hole while keeping the same casing diameter (which can have flow problems and also reduce the surface area of the grain at ignition to the point the motor has a long thrust buildup problem). Say the propellant "web" or propellant cross-section is 1 inch thick, and the propellant burns at 1 inch per second-- the motor will burn out in 1 second, since it will take 1 second to burn through that 1 inch thick piece of propellant...

Now, if you move the core hole off-center, you get a much thicker propellant "wall" on one side of the hole, while keeping the same casing diameter, and the same core hole diameter... in exchange you've created a much thinner propellant "wall" on the side of the core hole nearest the casing... but it's the thicker one we're interested in, and the total amount of propellant... Say your hypothetical motor, burning the same propellant that burns at a rate of 1 inch per second, is arranged as a moonburner, and say if you moved the same size core hole as the coreburner off-center to get a 2 inch thickness between the core hole inside wall and the casing wall directly opposite the off-center core hole-- the same motor, same propellant, but now it has TWO inches of propellant to burn through, not 1... at 1 inch of burn per second, it will have a burn duration of 2 seconds now...

Ares I basically faced the same problem... the shuttle SRB's were great at producing massive amounts of thrust, but they were only designed to burn for about 2 minutes. Adding segments to a core burner would be about like adding grains to a reload-- the extra length will increase thrust, sure... but then thrust isn't the problem-- the motor needs more DURATION to get the vehicle higher and faster before burnout. The only way to increase the DURATION of an SRB (assuming the propellant burn rate remains the same) is to increase the thickness of the burning propellant, which basically means, increasing the DIAMETER of the SRB, NOT increasing the LENGTH of the SRB... Of course the problem is, the SRB's had to use the same size casing... which was the already made and used casings for the shuttle, which were 146 inches in diameter...

Wonder if ATK ever thought about making a moon-burning SRB?? LOL:) Probably not, as casing erosion would be SEVERE (probably a show-stopper) for a motor that large with that long of a burn duration...

As for the single vs. multiple nozzles-- good information there... the thing is, when you have multiple nozzles firing in close proximity to each other, you have to take careful accounting of flow interactions and plume expansion and plume recirculation effects... that's some bigtime number crunching and CFD modeling... and basically it's NOT going to be as efficient as a single large nozzle, but then again, most things in rocketry are tradeoffs... for instance, the SSME's are under-expanded in vacuum, but overexpanded at sea-level. When they were designed, they had to accept some tradeoffs and loss of efficiency to make them work... design them for maximum efficiency in vacuum, they'll be SO overexpanded at sea-level you get flow seperation and all sorts of bad things start to happen... design them for maximum efficiency at sea-level, and they're SO underexpanded in vacuum the efficiency and performance goes down the drain...

The multiple nozzles aren't the most efficient means of converting pressurized hot gas into thrust, but it's the most efficient way to MANUFACTURE the nozzles in question... much like the RD-107 engines on the Soyuz rocket-- multiple chambers are less efficient than a single large chamber, but it's easier to control and overcome combustion instability in a cluster of smaller nozzles, and easier to manufactur smaller nozzles than a single large one...

later! OL JR :)

PS... I'd bet that gluing the grains together is more about keeping the off-center core hole aligned on a moonburner than it is about "sealing off" the ends of the grain to prevent them from burning off between the grains in flight... if the holes aren't aligned and don't stay aligned, the motor is going to be hard or impossible to install an ignitor into, get lit correctly, or burn right during the thrust phase...
 
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It's interesting that the CTI Moonburner instructions require gluing the grains together to form one grain. I assume this is to prevent the individual grains from burning from the ends in addition to the side.

The same is true of Aerotech ones too.

As far as I can tell, only the 75mm and 98mm reloads require gluing the grains together. The smaller grains come in one piece.
 
PS... I'd bet that gluing the grains together is more about keeping the off-center core hole aligned on a moonburner than it is about "sealing off" the ends of the grain to prevent them from burning off between the grains in flight... if the holes aren't aligned and don't stay aligned, the motor is going to be hard or impossible to install an ignitor into, get lit correctly, or burn right during the thrust phase...
If you just want to keep the grains aligned you could use a "unidirectional bonding strip". I think the glue that is supplied with the motor is also used as a burn inhibitor. If the glue isn't used a larger amount of the propellant's surface area will be exposed, and the thrust and motor pressure will be higher during the earlier part of the burn. This might cause the motor to fail.
 
I believe that they are glued to make the equivalent of a mono-grain.
There is some DOT limit to the size of a single grain that can be shipped.
Cutting the grains allows shipping.
Gluing them restores the mono-grain configuration.

As I know it....could be wrong....
 
The thrust curves for the core geometry and the bates geometry show the effect of the grain ends burning. Both geometries have the same central hole, but the bates geometry has greater thrust at the beginning and less thrust at the end because of the multiple grains.
 
Moonburner grains look like the waning moon going from nearly full to a thin crescent then burnout.
I flew a G54 in my 32 ounce Astrobee D. Nice ride. Captain they are slow, but not necessarily low. :lol:
- Jeff
 
I don't know that a longer-burn SRB would be useful... the point in using them is to have increased thrust. The SSME's provide the extra burntime needed for orbit, and by using LOX/H2 they get higher ISP than the APCP solid boosters can achieve. If you have to lug so much dense propellant so high and get it moving quickly before just burning it, you're wasting a lot of energy.
 
I know that liquids also usually burn for much longer. They're the moon burners of NASA. In fact, man rode to the moon and back on liquids... A true moon burner.

I think solid motors are only used to give a heavy craft a solid kick in the a** so that the liquids can do their work up higher in the atmosphere, where they'll be more efficient. At least this makes sense to me, as liquids have less thrust, and thus will get the craft moving faster if there is less air resistance and less gravitational pull.

Makes me want to strap four strap-on boosters with Vmaxes, then air starting a moon burner... Food for thought.
 
I know that liquids also usually burn for much longer. They're the moon burners of NASA. In fact, man rode to the moon and back on liquids... A true moon burner.

I think solid motors are only used to give a heavy craft a solid kick in the a** so that the liquids can do their work up higher in the atmosphere, where they'll be more efficient. At least this makes sense to me, as liquids have less thrust, and thus will get the craft moving faster if there is less air resistance and less gravitational pull.

Makes me want to strap four strap-on boosters with Vmaxes, then air starting a moon burner... Food for thought.

Why strap-on, and not stage?

I've always imagined something silly: a single skinny little I1299N staged to an end-burning 98mm L339N. Warp-9 all the way up.
 
Why strap-on, and not stage?

I've always imagined something silly: a single skinny little I1299N staged to an end-burning 98mm L339N. Warp-9 all the way up.

Strap on so you can light the moonburner on the way up. I guess staging would work too... I just think strap on boosters are cool looking.

Moonburners always seemed to be the right way to get to 100,000 feet. A 15 second burn M would be awesome as a sustainer on a 2 stage rocket.
 
Strap on so you can light the moonburner on the way up. I guess staging would work too... I just think strap on boosters are cool looking.

Moonburners always seemed to be the right way to get to 100,000 feet. A 15 second burn M would be awesome as a sustainer on a 2 stage rocket.

Well, the Carmack Prize winners used 4" to 3", all moonburning.
 
It's worth pointing out that the SRB uses different core geometries in the different segments to tune the thrust curve for the ascent profile. In HPR terms they're somewhat like dual-thrust motors, though there are actually two peaks in the thrust curve -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Solid_Rocket_Booster

Quite true, but I didn't want to overcomplicate it... it was technical enough all ready...

Good points though... Later! OL JR :)
 
I don't know that a longer-burn SRB would be useful... the point in using them is to have increased thrust. The SSME's provide the extra burntime needed for orbit, and by using LOX/H2 they get higher ISP than the APCP solid boosters can achieve. If you have to lug so much dense propellant so high and get it moving quickly before just burning it, you're wasting a lot of energy.

For the shuttle, yes, you are absolutely correct.... BUT, Ares I was NOT the shuttle... it was a serially staged conventional rocket design, using a solid first stage, and an LH2 powered second stage.

Ares I's problems were that it staged too low and slow due to the relatively low burnout altitude and velocity of the SRB... IF they had gone ahead and built the airlit SSME, with its high ISP and high thrust (500,000 lbs or thereabouts) the Ares I would have worked, at least from an early performance assessment point of view... The problem was, SSME COULD, with some development effort, be made to airlight under an upper stage... it just COULD NOT be "re-lit" once in space for a TLI burn on an escape stage... not without a complete redesign. Thus, Ares V would require the development of J-2S anyway, as well as the SSME for its first stage core and the upper stage of Ares I. To cut costs, SSME was dumped, RS-68 took its place on the core of Ares V, and J-2S grafted in to the SSME's place on the upper stage of Ares I... problem was, J-2S had neither high enough thrust nor ISP to be a good replacement for SSME in that role. It soon became apparent that the lower thrust of J-2S would seriously hurt the vehicle's performance, and so the higher thrust J-2X was developed from J-2S. This was only a partial fix, because the J-2X also had a lot less thrust and lower ISP than the SSME it replaced. This caused two problems... 1) lower ISP means a more propellants are required, meaning a bigger upper stage tankage is required, meaning heavier structures, meaning reduction of payload, all things being equal... and 2) the lower thrust means more gravity losses, which means the rocket needs even MORE propellants to get to orbit and overcome the inefficiency. As you can see, these problems can feed on themselves without careful design. What was needed was a LONGER BURNING first stage SRM... the longer burn would put the vehicle flying higher and faster at first stage burnout; the faster and higher staging means that the gravity losses are less, and reduces the propellants needed on the upper stage, making the lower thrust engine more effective and efficient.

Problem was, the only way to increase the burn duration of the first stage was to increase the diameter of the first stage SRM, which would of course preclude the use of the existing shuttle SRB casings, and require a complete redesign of the SRM from scratch, which meant that it wouldn't be shuttle derived... might as well go with a liquid propellant first stage instead. But then, that wouldn't be "shuttle derived" and thus was "off the table"...

SO, they tried the only modification they could... increasing the LENGTH of the SRM by adding additional SRB segments. This increases the thrust, but not the duration. This allows for a heavier upper stage, allowing more propellants and a heavier structure, but without the higher thust and ISP on the upper stage, the heavier structures STILL means lower performance. The Ares I needed a higher thrust, higher ISP engine for the upper stage (SSME), OR a longer burning SRM. There's no way around the physics of it.

Higher thrust doesn't really help you, and in fact can hurt you in other ways... for one, it starts becoming counterproductive if the rocket gets OVERTHRUSTED... this can lead to VERY high acceleration, meaning very high gee forces in flight, meaning the rocket structures have to be built stronger and heavier to compensate. This was another issue Ares I was facing, as the overacceleration of Ares I meant that its Max-Q (maximum dynamic pressure, or maximum aerodynamic load in flight) was VERY VERY high... requiring stronger structures to survive the crushing aerodynamic loads. This means higher dry weight, which means lower mass-fraction (propellant weight versus dry weight) meaning lower performance.

So, as a tradeoff, the Ares I simply accepted the inefficiency of the too-short duration first stage booster, since there was nothing they could do about that... they added a segment, increasing the thrust, and made the upper stage propellant tanks larger to compensate, which introduced inefficiency into the upper stage, since the upper stage J-2X had neither the thrust nor ISP to efficiently power the larger second stage. What this meant was that the second stage burned out WELL BEFORE reaching orbit. This was offset by using the service module propulsion system engine (shuttle OAMS engine, basically) to do a SIX MINUTE burn to accelerate the Orion to orbital velocity! Essentially, this meant that Ares I was INCAPABLE of launching a lunar-capable Orion vehicle, since it would arrive in orbit with insufficient propellant in its tanks to perform a lunar mission. Making the SM tanks larger wasn't an option, either, because it would ripple back through the entire design-- larger tanks full of hypergols are heavier, MUCH heavier, and Ares I's performance was too low as it was. Lofting a larger SM would cause the second stage to burn out sooner, meaning the SM would have to burn EVEN LONGER to achieve orbit, and suffer greater gravity losses of its own, increasing the inefficiency. It would also increase the loads on the first stage, which would reduce acceleration, but probably lead to a lower burnout altitude and speed, further hampering the second stage. Orion had already been stripped to the bone of all equipment not absolutely essential to the mission, and some things that were...

Later! OL JR :)
 
The I1299 wouldn't boost it very high - maybe 1000 ft. The L339 weighs about 7lbs by itself. A K1999 to L339 would be better :)

The really low staging would be part of the appeal.
Another similarly silly idea is 7 clustered I1299's to an N1000.
 
More info from CTI:

"The moonburning grain, characterized by the port being located tangent to the grain, results in burn times roughly
double that of the same propellant in a standard core-burning design. The thrust profile of a moonburner grain results
in maximum thrust at ignition, followed by a fully regressive thrust profile that minimizes dynamic flight stresses thus
allowing relatively light weight construction methods to be used. These motors are not meant for heavy, low altitude
flights, but for high altitude flights with light to medium weight rockets. We recommend launching as close to vertical as
allowed at your launch site; however, to date, weather-cocking or arcing over has not been an issue with these motors
flown in reasonable conditions."

https://www.pro38.com/pdfs/Moonburner_supplement_segmented_V1.1.pdf
Are there Aerotech Moonburner motors, or does CTI have a patent on them?

Are there any L1 or L2 Moonburner motors? Are they available in 54 or 38mm diameters?
 
Are there Aerotech Moonburner motors, or does CTI have a patent on them?

Are there any L1 or L2 Moonburner motors? Are they available in 54 or 38mm diameters?
CTI doesn't have a patent on moonburners. I'm not sure if Aerotech has any but Loki does. I110 in 38mm, J175, K250, K350 in 54mm
 
Are there Aerotech Moonburner motors, or does CTI have a patent on them?

Are there any L1 or L2 Moonburner motors? Are they available in 54 or 38mm diameters?
Yes. No.
Yes. Yes.

CTI g65 is the smallest moonburner I know of, L0 but does require HazMat.

There's also at least one Loki moonburner IIRC.
 
What you say is true; however I believe that the main reason for shipping in shorter grains is shipping classification. If I remember correct, the single long 75 and 98mm grains ship as 1.3C whereas the shorter segments can be shipped 1.4C. I believe that when the M520 initially came out, it was produced as the single grain, and thus carried the more expensive shipping class along with it.

As mentioned, inhibiting the ends/gluing the grains together essentially recreates a single monolithic grain.

-Eric-

You're correct, the grains are segmented to keep shipping costs down.
 
Yes, AeroTech was the first company to manufacture and sell them commercially, in the early ‘80s. We currently produce them in 29, 38, 54, 75 and 98mm diameters.

Bill Wood was the inventor of the grain geometry. Yours truly coined the term “moonburner” for Bill’s design. Bill never filed for a patent on it, but I believe he presented a paper describing them at a propulsion conference. I used to have a copy and would post it if I could find it.

Update: Here it is.

Are there Aerotech Moonburner motors, or does CTI have a patent on them?

Are there any L1 or L2 Moonburner motors? Are they available in 54 or 38mm diameters?
 
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PS... I'd bet that gluing the grains together is more about keeping the off-center core hole aligned on a moonburner than it is about "sealing off" the ends of the grain to prevent them from burning off between the grains in flight... if the holes aren't aligned and don't stay aligned, the motor is going to be hard or impossible to install an ignitor into, get lit correctly, or burn right during the thrust phase...
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Gluing the grains together does keep the core aligned, but it also inhibits the grain faces so the propellant only burns from the inside outward, and not from the ends. Faiure to glue the grains together will certainly result in failure.
 
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