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Mongoose AL NC tip

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rrobe99999

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I got a beautiful 29mm Mongoose carbon fiber kit. The aluminum NC tip looks dangerous, which got me thinking about safety code. I think this violates rule #1. Has anyone had experience convincing their RSO to let them fly this? Our club is pretty laid back, but I don't want to cause trouble. I know that I can fly this safely, but I ceratainly don't want people to think I am putting them at risk with this rocket. I would like to hear opinions and experiences from flyers of Mongoose rockets with AL NC tips.

Russ Roberts
TRA 11925 L2
 

troj

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I got a beautiful 29mm Mongoose carbon fiber kit. The aluminum NC tip looks dangerous, which got me thinking about safety code. I think this violates rule #1. Has anyone had experience convincing their RSO to let them fly this? Our club is pretty laid back, but I don't want to cause trouble. I know that I can fly this safely, but I ceratainly don't want people to think I am putting them at risk with this rocket. I would like to hear opinions and experiences from flyers of Mongoose rockets with AL NC tips.
29mm Mongoose? Did you get a Blackhawk, or something else? My Blackhawk came with an all-composite nose, but my Mongoose 54 has an aluminum tip.

This is done because the mold for narrow nosecones like this result in nothing but gelcoat or similar material at the tip, which is easily broken. My going with an aluminum tip, it solves this.

If you truly have a 29mm, and an aluminum tip is an issue, I've not yet done any modifications (such as gluing in retention/electronic mounts/etc) to mine and would be willing to swap with you, if you'd like.

-Kevin
 

sandmantoy

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I don't think it will make a difference in the catastrophe you might be thinking of. I am sure a one pound nose weight of BB's in a nose cone that you can't see will have the same amount of destruction but being a concern is good for keeping ones mind focused on safety.
 

bobkrech

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IMO if you are going to spend money on a CF NC, use high temperature epoxy and you won't need an aluminum tip. The ablation temperature of high temperature epoxy (filled with chopped carbon fiber for strength) is higher than the melting point of aluminum, and it's lighter as well.

Bob
 

Chrisn

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Whats the difference between an Al nose cone tip, or a plastic or fiberglass nose cone filled with lead weight. I would not want to be hit by either.
 

Kaycee

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In the event of a lawndart, I really don't think it would matter if the nose cone is balsa, basswood, fiberglass, graphite, carbon fiber, or any of the above with an aluminum tip. Much damage will be the result.

I have a Mongoose 75, and the thought of the tip being more dangerous than without has never entered my mind.


Getting the rocket back though, now that's another thing!
 
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troj

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IMO if you are going to spend money on a CF NC, use high temperature epoxy and you won't need an aluminum tip. The ablation temperature of high temperature epoxy (filled with chopped carbon fiber for strength) is higher than the melting point of aluminum, and it's lighter as well.
It's not an ablation thing, as far as I know, but rather an issue that a narrow tip, whether epoxy or gelcoat, will break very easily if the rocket is knocked over.

My understanding is the switch was made to aluminum tips to prevent that problem.

-Kevin
 

rrobe99999

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I chose to get the AL tip as an option on this kit mostly because it looks cool, but also because the conical tip would likely break if made of graphite liek the rest of the NC. This kit looks identical to the Blackhawk. But now that I have the kit, I am wondering if my RSO will consider this a violation of rule #1. I guess I am just trying to prepare with a good argument if needed. I think the comparison to a FG NC with filled with lead might work.
 

sandmantoy

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Yeah, I would not worry about it you are not the first to fly one of these and there has not been any problems anyway. It would not cause any more or less damage with the little aluminum tip. You would need more power more mass and something harder than aluminum to be a menace ;)

Just take your time and build it nice, remember the crowd is hoping you are looking out for them too. :eyepop: :y: :shock: :eek: :jaw:
 

JimJarvis50

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It's not an ablation thing, as far as I know, but rather an issue that a narrow tip, whether epoxy or gelcoat, will break very easily if the rocket is knocked over.

My understanding is the switch was made to aluminum tips to prevent that problem.

-Kevin
A few weeks ago, I got my latest 54mm Performance nosecone. The box was crushed and about 1" of the tip was broken off (naturally). As an experiment, I'm trying to reproduce the tip using some Cotronics glue. Last night, I formed a cone with some mylar over the top of the cone and filled it with the Cotronics and a little milled glass. When I get home tonight, I'll unwrap it and see how it turned out. I figure it's about 50/50 to make this work.

Jim
 

cjl

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Honestly, it shouldn't do any more damage if it comes in hard than a CF or fiberglass cone would. I don't really see why there would be a problem. I know that if I were RSO, I'd let it through just fine.
 

JimJarvis50

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Just in case anyone has this problem, I got a Performance Rocketry fiberglass cone with the nose tip broken off. I decided to try to repair it. I took some contronics high-temp epoxy and filled it with milled carbon fibers. This was formed on the tip of the cone using a mylar cone. Had to fill a couple of spots and do a little sanding, but I think it turned out pretty well (and much stronger than the original tip I'm sure). Here's a pic of the repair and the cone after painting a few times with contronics (I don't like to continually repaint nose cones).

Jim

DSC02088.jpg


DSC02103.jpg
 

tbonerocketeer

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It is indeed a mongoose 29, not a blackhawk, which is wildmans version. They are identical, since they come from the same manufacture. As far as safety code violation, it isn't, since the code allows ductile metal when structurally required, as is the case on a 6to1 conical nosecone tip, to prevent breaking. Russ, i don't think you'll every have rso problems, as Kendall has already flown his at our field, as well as at LDRS.
 

cls

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at last year's LDRS an RSO refused to allow an aluminum tipped nose cone to fly. ridiculous - everyone here agrees - but the RSO's decision is final. it ruined the trip to Kansas and the L3 for the rocketeer.
 

quickburst

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at last year's LDRS an RSO refused to allow an aluminum tipped nose cone to fly. ridiculous - everyone here agrees - but the RSO's decision is final. it ruined the trip to Kansas and the L3 for the rocketeer.
I'd have waited for shift change.
 

Chrisn

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at last year's LDRS an RSO refused to allow an aluminum tipped nose cone to fly. ridiculous - everyone here agrees - but the RSO's decision is final. it ruined the trip to Kansas and the L3 for the rocketeer.
Id have asked around for another nose cone of the same diameter.
 

5x7

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Id have asked around for another nose cone of the same diameter.
I knew the LDRS 27 rule was no exposed metal- and I had no intention of even going to LDRS 27. I can't understand how a registered flyer missed that rule.
 

rrobe99999

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Thanks for the feedback guys. I flew the rocket at our last launch. It did not even get an RSO check since I flew it on an F motor.
 

jim fustini

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Honestly, it shouldn't do any more damage if it comes in hard than a CF or fiberglass cone would. I don't really see why there would be a problem. I know that if I were RSO, I'd let it through just fine.
Here is a photo of a ESTES commanchee that came in ballistic at a SMASH launch a few years ago. PLASTIC no weight!

rocketpics 044.jpg
 

llickteig1

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at last year's LDRS an RSO refused to allow an aluminum tipped nose cone to fly. ridiculous - everyone here agrees - but the RSO's decision is final. it ruined the trip to Kansas and the L3 for the rocketeer.
All available information for LDRS 27 CLEARLY stated from the on-set that there would be no exposed metal nosecone tips, transitions, fins or other structural parts allowed to fly at LDRS 27. There were press releases regarding that restriction alone - i.e. not buried in other releases. If someone allowed this rule to "ruin" their trip to Kansas in 2008 for LDRS 27, then they should have paid attention. The rule does not prohibit these structural metal parts, rather it prohibits them being exposed.

This rule is in place at Argonia due to a specific incident in the past with a metal rocket and the resulting landowner wishes. It is a matter of perception and keeping landowners happy. When it comes down to keeping our launch site vs. the stubbornness of a single flyer - the flyer loses. Various clubs have specific limitations on certain things, and it is the attending flyers' responsibility to respect those limitations. If I went to a launch that clearly listed "No Blue Rockets" as a limitation, I wouldn't bring a blue rocket.

We regret any hard feelings, but the rule was well-publicized far in advance so that everyone should have been informed. Furthermore, did the flyer at any time discuss the issue with the launch director or myself? A small amount of spray paint could have remedied the problem in 5 minutes.

Lance Lickteig
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Binder Design

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at last year's LDRS an RSO refused to allow an aluminum tipped nose cone to fly. ridiculous - everyone here agrees - but the RSO's decision is final. it ruined the trip to Kansas and the L3 for the rocketeer.
That's too bad since a rattle can of paint is so cheap. Once it is painted, it is no longer "exposed" and no longer appears to be metal. It was a perception issue.

Mike Fisher
Binder Design
 

JDcluster

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Doesn't Estes use metal motor hooks?
How many Estes were turned down because of this rule?

What about Aero-pak retainers?

Before anyone goes crazy here; I understand rules are rules, but if you let even one group of flyers gets away what others cannot do then the rules are meaningless.


Now get over it


JD
 

cls

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thanks for the info about the LDRS incident - I do not know the details so can't comment further. but overall I think the main point is clear to everyone: read and follow the rules, don't assume anything.
 

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