Mini engine CATOs?

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kuririn

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Today I had another mini engine CATO.
vlcsnap-2021-08-17-15h17m13s964.png


A10-3T.
Never had a mini engine CATO before, then I have experienced or witnessed 3 or 4 just within the past year.
Anybody else seeing this, or is it just me?
 

neil_w

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Anecdotally, there seem to be a lot of A10 CATO reports lately (on TRF).
 

Alan Whitmore

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Pleeeeez!!!!! Fill out a MESS report in full. The only way we can change the anecdotal meaningless reports into some form of data that actually helps the manufacturers and the sanctioning bodies is if _everybody_ takes the time to report each commercial motor failure. Even if you think you might have been at fault, it doesn't matter. We need the data to make decisions.

It's easy. Go to the NAR website, find the "report a malfunctioning motor" tab, and fill out the report. 2 minutes max.

Alan Whitmore
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rklapp

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I thought I had it on video but can't find it. Maybe later. The Handycam has been skipping videos lately. Grrr...

 
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kuririn

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MESS report has been filed.
Looking at the stats seems like 2020 was a record for failures of this motor.
Still, only 20 reports filed. I'm guessing maybe a lot more that went unreported.
How many people in the general flying public know about MESS reports?
 

BEC

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I‘ve had several with A10-0Ts and have filed reports on them. *sigh*
 

Cape Byron

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Today I had another mini engine CATO.

A10-3T.
Never had a mini engine CATO before, then I have experienced or witnessed 3 or 4 just within the past year.
Anybody else seeing this, or is it just me?
I've had a couple in the last year. MESS reports filed.
 

jmasterj

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Just had an A10-3T CATO today in an Estes Silver Streak. 2nd motor from the package, first one was fine.
 

DabCat

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I realize I'm a little late to this thread, but it's interesting to see others having similar issues. On my last launch I destroyed an estes fuse from an A10 Cato. Guess I should fill out a report. I still have 3 left in the pack. Should I still launch them?
 

neil_w

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I realize I'm a little late to this thread, but it's interesting to see others having similar issues. On my last launch I destroyed an estes fuse from an A10 Cato. Guess I should fill out a report. I still have 3 left in the pack. Should I still launch them?
Well now that is always the dilemma.

If it were me, I would save them for either (a) rockets I don't care about, or (b) saucers or something that are mostly CATO-immune.
 

kuririn

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Besides the MESS report, if your rocket was destroyed and it was an Estes, you can get it replaced along with the motor. Contact Estes customer service. They're the best.
 

DabCat

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Besides the MESS report, if your rocket was destroyed and it was an Estes, you can get it replaced along with the motor. Contact Estes customer service. They're the best.
Will they still replace discontinued rockets? I'm pretty sure the Fuse is discontinued.
 

KenECoyote

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About 6-7 years ago I flew many, many mini motors including A10 (testing different designs and the A10 gave the most thrust for the marginally stable rockets) and never had an issue...was about to start testing again (tomorrow AM) and horrified to hear of this. :eek:

Was going to test this bad boy (which only works on A10s) to prepare for our club's last launch in November...

1633835388359.png



Thanks for the heads up! Maybe I'll hold off on buying new A10s for a while....
 

rklapp

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I realize I'm a little late to this thread, but it's interesting to see others having similar issues. On my last launch I destroyed an estes fuse from an A10 Cato. Guess I should fill out a report. I still have 3 left in the pack. Should I still launch them?
Fly them in a Lunar Scout. It's Cato proof...
 

cerving

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Today I had another mini engine CATO.
View attachment 477957

A10-3T.
Never had a mini engine CATO before, then I have experienced or witnessed 3 or 4 just within the past year.
Anybody else seeing this, or is it just me?
That sucks, but you got a great picture out of it...
 

rklapp

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If they no longer have that particular rocket they will offer a replacement of comparable value.
Plus Estes has mysteriously been out of stock of the A10s. I suspect they've pulled the motors with all the Catos. For replacement, they can offer a similar motor like the A3.

For my E12 Cato, they can't ship to me so they sent me two packs of D12-5 instead, which is pretty cool. It's like a frequent flyer program.
 

KenECoyote

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Catos are horrible...I got a big bunch of Estes PSII single use motors about 6 years back (3 dozen?) in E/F/G and have used maybe half of them, but then had quite a motor failure recently where the motor burned out the side and destroyed my old reliable Nike Smoke (which can't be replaced...Estes offered some other rocket retail value of up to $99 though). Now I'm wondering about the rest of the motors and have to take a chance on any rocket I'm putting them in.
1633972146638.png

1633972408316.png

I did file a MESS report as should we all.
 

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MALBAR 70

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My problem hasn't been CATO's with the A10's, (although I've had a few) but rather ejection failures. I've flown several A10-3t motors this summer that failed to eject at all, meaning the clay cap was still fully intact. The date code on these engines is D21 0521 and were purchased at Hobby Lobby. For the record, I did file MESS reports on these failures.
My most recent failure was over the weekend when my NRC A Parachute Duration rocket failed to deploy, disqualifying my flight and destroying my rocket. I contacted Estes for the replacement warranty, usually they like pictures of the malfunctioning engine showing the issue as well as the date code and engine size. I always include these photos when I contact Estes. This time they also requested I soak the remaining three engines in water over night and send a photograph of that as well. Has anyone else been requested to do this?
 

DigBaddy

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My problem hasn't been CATO's with the A10's, (although I've had a few) but rather ejection failures. I've flown several A10-3t motors this summer that failed to eject at all, meaning the clay cap was still fully intact. The date code on these engines is D21 0521 and were purchased at Hobby Lobby. For the record, I did file MESS reports on these failures.
My most recent failure was over the weekend when my NRC A Parachute Duration rocket failed to deploy, disqualifying my flight and destroying my rocket. I contacted Estes for the replacement warranty, usually they like pictures of the malfunctioning engine showing the issue as well as the date code and engine size. I always include these photos when I contact Estes. This time they also requested I soak the remaining three engines in water over night and send a photograph of that as well. Has anyone else been requested to do this?
When they shipped me new C6-5s this summer that were having ejection problems, I had to soak the remaining bulk pack and send pictures, 17 of them. Made me want to cry. I would have preferred to bench test them all for data...but no luck on that approach.
 

Alan15578

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When they shipped me new C6-5s this summer that were having ejection problems, I had to soak the remaining bulk pack and send pictures, 17 of them. Made me want to cry. I would have preferred to bench test them all for data...but no luck on that approach.
I think that when you destroy motors at the request of the manufacturer, you should also submit MESS failure reports on each of them just so more complete counts can be tallied.
 

kuririn

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I think that when you destroy motors at the request of the manufacturer, you should also submit MESS failure reports on each of them just so more complete counts can be tallied.
This got me thinking. Manufacturers frequently issue voluntary recalls if their product is tainted or defective. Cars, air bags, toys, furniture, prescription drugs, food come to mind.
Has there ever been a recall of defective rocket motors? Not even the notorious E-9s?
I know that advisories have been issued, for example by Aerotech.
Hmmm.....
 

Fishhead

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Estes Mini Max_Moment(3).jpg


My Estes Mini Max on a first flight with an A10-3T last year on Max Saturday. Toasted the rocket to the point that paint and decal are all that are left of the airframe in some spots.
 

Banzai88

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This got me thinking. Manufacturers frequently issue voluntary recalls if their product is tainted or defective. Cars, air bags, toys, furniture, prescription drugs, food come to mind.
Has there ever been a recall of defective rocket motors? Not even the notorious E-9s?
I know that advisories have been issued, for example by Aerotech.
Hmmm.....
Heck, with all the issues that CTI has had over the last 5 years, you would think that they would be the lead on any type of recall. Makes one wonder just how many rockets and motor hardware were ruined by improper forward closure plastic, incorrect pyrodex pellets, or faulty forward closure o-rings that NEVER got reported on a MESS and the rocketeer NEVER got the bulletin that there was something amiss with the production process.
 

Rktman

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I've never had to file a MESS report, but two weeks ago I had a CATO with an Estes B motor. Where do I find the date code? (One of the fields on the MESS report). Hopefully it's not on the packaging, since I always ditch that and store my motors in a metal case. I couldn't find the casing but I DO have the remaining motors from my order, so hopefully the date code is printed somewhere on the casing.
 

Alan Whitmore

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I've never had to file a MESS report, but two weeks ago I had a CATO with an Estes B motor. Where do I find the date code? (One of the fields on the MESS report). Hopefully it's not on the packaging, since I always ditch that and store my motors in a metal case. I couldn't find the casing but I DO have the remaining motors from my order, so hopefully the date code is printed somewhere on the casing.
It's in that oval thing next to the arrow.
Alan
 

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Alan15578

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This got me thinking. Manufacturers frequently issue voluntary recalls if their product is tainted or defective. Cars, air bags, toys, furniture, prescription drugs, food come to mind.
Has there ever been a recall of defective rocket motors? Not even the notorious E-9s?
I know that advisories have been issued, for example by Aerotech.
Hmmm.....
I do not think there has ever been a formal rocket motor recall. I think there have been some voluntary motor exchanges, but nobody wants to ship bad motors back to the manufacturer, or back up the retail supply chain. Probably the most notorious was the Estes D13, especially the November 1970 vintage.
 
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