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GlenP

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After adding the last of the template parts to the bottom. I did not get things to match up perfectly with this one, not sure if I was just not careful enough or the template is off a little. I could build the display stand that came with it while I think about how to make this thing fly.
 

GlenP

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Hmm, maybe I can just parasite this one upside down on the bottom of my Super Viper... hmmm.
 

GlenP

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Thanks very much! I am hoping to figure out a way to launch it with 18mm C power, but am thinking the weight will come close to that limit. Going with a 24mm D power would help with the weight, but I don't think this model is really strong enough, as I have built it at least. The new C5 engine might be the best option. There are some really good ideas out there to pilfer, er borrow from, I may just add an 18mm tube with some oversize fins at the back and strap this on the side.

It would be really cool to turn this into a glider recovery, although the disc shape itself is not a very good candidate for a glider. But there are some ways to blend the raider shape into a viable glider, take a look at some of the very clever shapes of the @burkefj DynaSoar RC gliders for example, like the Star Trek themed Starship model with a disc shaped wing. In fact, I think having a Cylon raider to match with his Viper glider would be really cool for RC glider dogfights! ... Not as if he has a shortage of great ideas himself, seems to have no problem coming up with really cool original designs:


But, I am kind of leaning towards something simple like a rear-eject pod or a parachute on shroud lines that will suspend the raider in a horizontal orientation for the recovery, so it would have at least an illusion of gliding in for a landing. I just think that adding more wing area to make it a decent glider will bust my weight goal for an 18mm power rocket.

Of course, it would be appropriate to just hang it on the side of this guy: (you, know, a Centurion, get it?)


He thought it was funny, I think, hard to tell.
 
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burkefj

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The problem with disks is that the CG for gliding has to be at or ahead of 25% of the diameter, which is very far forward for a rear mounted motor design that this would want, unless you put a long tube sticking forward like I used on the Starship, it's easier to do electric propulsion on these disks since you can put the motor at the front of the disk or on the CG location and the flight battery is heavy so you can adjust CG with that, for a rocket glider using as light a weight battery as possible it doesn't help. If you did a parasite design it could work as you can use a long rocket to keep boost cg in check, even doing a pop pod with this without any long tube won't really work as the motor will still be in the tail and the moment arm to put the cg at 25% or further forward for boost will just lead to a pig. I agree it would be neat. You could do a pair of parasite gliders on opposite sides of a booster, you would need some sort of vertical stab added to the gliders....

Frank


It would be really cool to turn this into a glider recovery, although the disc shape itself is not a very good candidate for a glider. But there are some ways to blend the raider shape into a viable glider, take a look at some of the very clever shapes of the @burkefj DynaSoar RC gliders for example, like the Star Trek themed Starship model with a disc shaped wing. In fact, I think having a Cylon raider to match with his Viper glider would be really cool for RC glider dogfights! ... Not as if he has a shortage of great ideas himself, seems to have no problem coming up with really cool original designs:




He thought it was funny, I think, hard to tell.
 

GlenP

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I might start a new thread for this Raider. The raider weights in about 2.8 oz. So, I am thinking I can make a simple 18mm rocket with oversize fins, and with middle eject or rear eject so it can safely unload the raider as a parasite. As long as that rocket itself is light enough to carry the nearly 2oz payload of the raider. I will rig up some long shroud lines to a chute for the raider to let it descend horizontally but somewhat nose down like it is making an attack run. The rocket won't be anything special, just a carrier rocket with some appropriate decorations...
 

burkefj

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You could also do a "spool" type aproach with a motor vertically up the center:)

Frank


I might start a new thread for this Raider. The raider weights in about 2.8 oz. So, I am thinking I can make a simple 18mm rocket with oversize fins, and with middle eject or rear eject so it can safely unload the raider as a parasite. As long as that rocket itself is light enough to carry the nearly 2oz payload of the raider. I will rig up some long shroud lines to a chute for the raider to let it descend horizontally but somewhat nose down like it is making an attack run. The rocket won't be anything special, just a carrier rocket with some appropriate decorations...
 

GlenP

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You could also do a "spool" type aproach with a motor vertically up the center:)

Frank
That is a pretty good idea too. This particular build is probably not strong enough, I think the wing tips might rip off, they don't have any internal support as this was intended for a display model. But the shape is actually very close to a saucer type rocket and could probably be made into one with minimal modifications. It could be scaled down to an appropriate diameter and could be a spool fin or a saucer rocket. It might also work as a simple fold-over wing for a monocopter, the Art Applewhite USA flag MMX mini monocopter, for example, you could replace the flag with a top/bottom view of the Raider and fold it over as the wing. Just have to size the raider planform to the equivalent flag area and re-balance the beam with a new engine and spent engine.
 

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Only one ship can carry a raider, and that’s a BaseStar... kind of playing with some ideas here for a carrier rocket, and mixing metaphors. Just need some beets and bears. Fins are 3/16” thin balsa stock papered with the metallic 100# cardstock paper.
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GlenP

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You could also do a "spool" type aproach with a motor vertically up the center:)

Frank
Now that gives me another idea for the carrier rocket, but not sure if I can switch gears now, or if I have to start a new one, and if I can make it light enough. Remember the shape of the original basestar... two large discs, right? Spool rocket. I mean, how did I not see that before? To reduce drag a little, I could mix that with a ring fin at the core, like the Centuri Flying Saucer. Hmmm... Just like two Art Applewhite saucer models stacked on top of each other. Wow! And I could have had a V8!

 

kuririn

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The question would be how to carry the Raider(s) on the Base Star.
Parasites on the top and bottom?
 

GlenP

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The long 18mm body tube would just have the ring/spool fins at the bottom, the raider can just hang on the side of the tube right above them. Not that elegant, but it should work.
 

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on second thought, this particular raider is already pretty large, draggy and heavy, so I will stick with some simple disc shaped profile T-fins, printed cardstock sandwiches on balsa, with 4.5" dia discs for the old school basestar, just flat profile T-fins, instead of the new fancy tri-tip fins I was originally thinking. That is about the biggest fin disc I can make with the left over scrap balsa sheet I found in my stash, so I will make the best of it. I like the idea of the spool fins for a base station, but that would probably require a smaller scaled down parasite raider model. I am tailoring this carrier for the model I already built.
 

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Nice! You could do a NuRaider with that spiky NuBasestar carrier too! :)
Is the raider recovery gear going in the tube? How do the harness lines poke out?

I'd like to try a saucer raider and a saucer/spool basestar too. I do think that the basestar needs sharp edges at the circumference to help with the base drag.

I'm enjoying this thread a lot. Thanks for posting! :)
 

GlenP

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So the carrier is just two 18mm tubes about 10 inches each. The front of the raider will rest about even with the split where the chute and shroud lines will come out. I still have some work to do on that, but this is an approximate layout with the basestar disc fins that will attach to the tips of the small trapezoidal fins on there now.

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Not sure if I can balance the raider from a single shroud line to the cg or if I may need a harness of four lines to its chute. Still need to figure out if I can balance the rocket with the raider on there, and if those fins will actually be effective enough.
 
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GlenP

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This may be adequate fin area for the rocket itself, but I will still need to figure out the best way to strap the raider on here without leaving most of these fins in the wake. Close up of the fin can:

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Congratulations! Add a ping pong ball and you've built yourself an Estes TIE fighter! o_O ;)

Say, are those papered balsa or just solid cardboard?

Are the basestar disks wide enough apart to slot into the raider's "open" sections and protrude below? It might be an option but it doesn't quite look wide enough. Another option, if you were to go through the pain of modifying this one raider or building a second, is to run a BT-5 or BT-20 through the center of the raider with the typical "flight probe" extension; the basestar fin arrangement would have to change though.

Looking good!!!
 

GlenP

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The size of the existing raider template would work better with a larger 24mm power rocket, but I am not sure if the display model is strong enough, even with the extra glue tabs that I added, so I was trying for 18mm power but am getting close to 4oz. This is sort of a prototype figuring it out along the way. The raider template should probably be built stronger and heavier for 24mm or scaled down smaller for 18mm power. I hope I can get it to work. The slots in the outboard wing are too wide to fit in the gap between the base station, those were sized to maximize what I could get from a balsa sheet, but some better planning would have those interface and let the basestar discs serve as twin rudders in the slots of the raider wings. That just was not the right proportions for this 18mm carrier rocket.
 

GlenP

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This is a pretty decent stand alone, just not sure if my plan to carry this raider will actually work yet, still a work in progress...
 

GlenP

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With the raider on there, this just does not balance like I want it. I don't want to add more weight to the nose, so I will increase the moment arm and add another section of body tube. Hopefully that will do the trick. Still might bust my weight target...
 

GlenP

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the carrier rocket was lengthened to help increase the moment arm of the nose weight. Still not sure if this will work, the rudders just look too small. Just a dry fit stacking test here, but here is the story so far:
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GlenP

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Good idea! Nothing is mounted in place yet, but I am thinking the cambered airfoil shape of the raider will require it to be at a slight nose down pitch so that it rides at its effective zero lift angle of attack. I may have to put some different stop blocks under its tail so I can swing test the raider in different pitches. Still thinking about adding some more fin area, those base stations don’t look big enough for yaw control. I need to get some more balsa sheet stock from the shop, I used up that last of what I had on hand.
 
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GlenP

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Because I just can’t leave well enough alone, I had already made these fins, so why not use them?

I like to compare with existing proven kits as a sanity check that I am not too far beyond the limits, and this rocket with the raider on there is really not too far off from the UFO Invader overall shape. So, there may be hope yet.

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GlenP

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Custom home made chute for the carrier rocket. I have a clear chute for the raider.

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Apologies to Der Red Max.
 

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Nice artwork! I like the clear chute idea for the raider. Hopefully it won't be too stealthy in the sky as it makes its attack run! :)
 

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I added a short BT20 for storing the raider chute and got the forward dowel hook installed on the carrier rocket. Two aft carrier hooks will keep the raider from rotating. The carrier dowels fit into lugs on the raider, I wrapped them with a little cardstock to make them look like little cannons. The aft dowels have a little higher offset from the body tube to give the cambered airfoil raider a slight nose down attitude to hopefully cancel out the lift it might produce.

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GlenP

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A couple more shots of the full stack

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GlenP

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When I decided to build that paper raider model, I did not really have a plan, but sort of made this up as I went along. I think it came out roughly in the same size/weight class as a UFO Invader model, but my raider is definitely higher drag than that flat fin, even with the embedded pods on that one. The UFO Invader uses two chutes, this one splits apart into two parts each on their own chute. But, I still feel like the weight here is a little bit much for a C6-3, maybe okay on a zero-wind day, afraid to try it on a C6-5, but a C5 Super-C engine should really do the trick.

The shroud lines on the raider suspend it horizontally near its c.g. so it should look cool coming down on it's transparent chute and thin white shroud lines, from an old spool of button/carpet thread. I think this "make-it-up-as-you-go" turned out okay, but the flight test will determine that. Definitely could have been more efficient with the weight and structure but that paper model was intended for display not flight. Lots of room for improvement on this one. I just wondered what the Estes kit might have looked like, but realize the challenges posed by using a highly detailed plastic model as the basis for a model rocket. A few times along the way here I almost gave up on my attempt of turning this into a flying model rocket.
 
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