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Tookanforever

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Fellow Fliers',

I flew my Wildman Jr. at AIRfest and am attempting to understand what happened during my flight, I think, but am not certain there may have been an electrical problem..

After reporting to the RSO, and being cleared to load my Rocket by the LCO, all my electronics appeared to be working on the pad, after returning to the flight line, the Featherweight app showed Connection, and good signal strength to me.. Launch and everything goes smoothly, rockets away.. I had a visual on my rocket drifting south over the TX compound, (I believed), towards the cornfields on 80th and eden rd. When I realize i had no voice telemetry, nor connection to the FW GPS..
 
Fellow Fliers',

I flew my Wildman Jr. at AIRfest and am attempting to understand what happened during my flight, I think, but am not certain there may have been an electrical problem..

After reporting to the RSO, and being cleared to load my Rocket by the LCO, all my electronics appeared to be working on the pad, after returning to the flight line, the Featherweight app showed Connection, and good signal strength to me.. Launch and everything goes smoothly, rockets away.. I had a visual on my rocket drifting south over the TX compound, (I believed), towards the cornfields on 80th and eden rd. When I realize i had no voice telemetry, nor connection to the FW GPS..
Did you find your rocket? If not what's the tracker ID?

I had a few issues with my tracker, 1 being hiw the voice was set up but also someone on the same channel.
May have just been duplicate channels being used
 
Did you find your rocket? If not what's the tracker ID?

I had a few issues with my tracker, 1 being hiw the voice was set up but also someone on the same channel.
May have just been duplicate channels being used
Sorry, my big thumb got in the way of finishing the whole story.. I finally got a fix on my gps, but it was from the area around the away cell.. nothing jived with what my eyes and instincts told me.. so I walked about 15 miles or more looking for my rocket.. only to find it at the RSO table around the close of flights..
Yes, it was recovered but not in situ, where I could discern anything physically.
So, my questions are;
Did the orientation of my battery horizontal to the orientation of thrust cause a brief short?
Did I in inadvertently back out of the FW App causing loss of lock?
But, alas, I have no clue..

I was hoping to try and understand how to correlate the data from the Blue Raven and come up with a better understanding of where it landed.. as well as diagnose the root cause of the loss of GPS..
I will include the Files I have downloaded, hopefully some kind Rocketeer will be able to shed some light on possible causes and future solutions..
Wildman Jr., 3.6lbs, H550St, 30in Recon Recovery chute, 38mm Featherweight Av Bay, and GPS in the nosecone.. see pictures
 

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  • tkf_1_raven_summary_08-31-2024_11_14_01_.xlsx
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  • tracker anomaly.xlsx
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  • high_rate_09-15-2024_16_07_41.csv
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  • low_rate_09-02-2024_20_37_46.xlsx
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Did you find your rocket? If not what's the tracker ID?

I had a few issues with my tracker, 1 being hiw the voice was set up but also someone on the same channel.
May have just been duplicate channels being used
I completely understand.. after trying to overcome my own ignorance of these nifty devices and what it takes to fly them successfully.. I know that there must be others, my FW App still shows alot of "lost rockets" from AIRFest..
 
@Tookanforever --

First, I am glad your rocket turned up !

Second, there is a wealth of information in the Featherweight files but it can be overwhelming at first !

Please don't hesitate to ask Q's ... I like to hear Q's and A's from other users because I always learn from them !!

So ...

I downloaded your files to take a look at the flight data from your Blue Raven an Featherweight GPS.

I don't own a Featherweight GPS so the best A's for your Q's on operating the GPS will come from @Adrian A or other TRF members.

And Adrian is at Balls this weekend so we may not hear from him until he Drives back from NV to CO next week.

Having admitted that I am no expert, I see at a glance that your GPS file, Tracker anomoly.xlsx has different columns than the samples that Adrian posted here on TRF for his flights.

That could be because Adrian has added more columns to the GPS files in newer versions of the GPS firmware and phone software than the latest one I have from his J record attempt using Loki J1026 ( post #124 ) last June.

But maybe the file you posted is a 'lost rocket file' instead of the GPS data for your flight ?

These are the columns I see in your GPS file compared to Adrian's J1026 file, filtered thru the GNU/UNIX sdiff program ( your GPS on the left, Adrian's on the right ).

Code:
TRACKER .........................[001]: Tookanforev           | UTCTIME .........................[001]: Jun 02 2024 14:47:17.
DATE ............................[002]: 45535                 | UNIXTIME ........................[002]: 1717361237.099
TIME ............................[003]: 0.44366549768518521   | ALT .............................[003]: 5485.8
GS Lat ..........................[004]: 37.167679999999997    | LAT .............................[004]: 40.88669
GS Lon ..........................[005]: -97.739840000000001   | LON .............................[005]: -104.63799
GS Alt asl ......................[006]: 1286                  | #SATS ...........................[006]: 23
TRACKER Lat .....................[007]: 0                     | FIX .............................[007]: 3
TRACKER Lon .....................[008]: 0                     | HORZV ...........................[008]: 0
TRACKER Alt asl .................[009]: 0                     | VERTV ...........................[009]: 0
FIX .............................[010]: 0                     | HEAD ............................[010]: 79
HORZV ...........................[011]: 0                     | FLAGS ...........................[011]: 1
VERTV ...........................[012]: 0                     | >40 .............................[012]: 0
HEAD ............................[013]: 0                     | >32 .............................[013]: 10
FLAGS ...........................[014]: 0x00                  | >24 .............................[014]: 10
#TOT ............................[015]: 0                     | RSSI ............................[015]: -36
>40 ..........................[016]: 0                     | BATT ............................[016]: 4.021
>32 ..........................[017]: 0                     | Altitude AGL ....................[017]: 1.8
>24 ..........................[018]: 0                     | Launch detection ................[018]: FALSE
RSSI Down .......................[019]: -21                   | Apogee detection ................[019]: FALSE
RSSI Up .........................[020]: -50                   | Landing detection ...............[020]: FALSE
Horizontal range (ft) ...........[021]: 0                     | Distance (feet) .................[021]: 6.5556
Alt AGL (ft) ....................[022]: -1286.001             <
Total range (ft) ................[023]: 1286.001              <
LoRa Max Range (kft) ............[024]: 0                     <
LoRa Success Rate ...............[025]: 1                     <
BATT ............................[026]: 3.7030000686645499    <
GS_batt_v .......................[027]: 3.62100005149841      <
Down Sent .......................[028]: 0                     </
Down Rcvd .......................[029]: 0                     <
Found Sent ......................[030]: 0                     <
Up Sent .........................[031]: 1                     <
Up Rccvd ........................[032]: 0                     <
Found rocket ID .................[033]:                       <
Found rocket lat ................[034]: 0                     <
Found rocket lon ................[035]: 0                     <
Found rocket altitude ...........[036]: 0                     <
Found rocket fix ................[037]: 0                     <
Found rocket batt_v .............[038]: 0                     <
Found RSSI ......................[039]: -50                   <

Is there a way in the Featherweight App on your phone to select your GPS device and then 're-download' the GPS data for your flight ?

I don't know the answer to that Q but maybe a GPS owner knows or Adrian will know the answer for sure.

I can give some general help on .csv file handling on windows though.

The Blue Raven and the GPS produce .csv files by default. but three of the four files you attached are .xlsx files.

This is probably because when you Double-Click a .csv in Windows, it will helpfully open the file in Excel and then when you exit Excel, it will offer to save the .csv file as an Excel file which is not always so helpful because the Excel file ( .xlsx ) may contain less of information than the original, raw .csv file.

But Excel is a wonderful tool for viewing the data !

For that reason, I please allow me to suggest that you keep copies of your raw .csv files, in a safe place 'just in case'.

Do you have the original .csv files from the Blue Raven ?

If so, please post your original .csv files and I believe we can at least plot the Blue Raven inertial and barometric data for your flight.

HTH

-- kjh

EDIT: fix my bad grammar and spelling
 
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Kjh

Thanks for the pro tip, I don't know enough about the different formats.. hopefully this is what you're wanting.. as always appreciate the help. Sir.
 

Attachments

  • high_rate_09-15-2024_16_07_41.csv
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  • tkf_1_raven_summary_08-31-2024_11_14_01_.csv
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  • low_rate_09-02-2024_20_37_46.csv
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Thanks David !

The raw .csv data looks better to my Linux scripts :)

This is altitude -vs- time for the entire flight, created by a q&d gnuplot script:

tkf-h550-c40803-ipd.png
Q: is your Blue Raven open to sunshine after deployment ?

The noise in the barometric data after apogee suggests that there might have been sunshine on the sensor ...

-- kjh
 
Glad you got your rocket back. kjh and I are both seeing the high noise level in the barometric data after apogee and recovery deployment. I go to extreme measures to prevent sunlight interference with painting the interior of my avionics bays black.

Your tracker anomaly probably is interference from another tracker on the same frequency.
 
Switched to my phone so I could attach some plots.

It looks like you had a beautiful, straight up flight from liftoff until 12.35 sec or so.

Less than 1.5 roll rotations from liftoff to apogee!
tkf-h550-c40831-angles-15-sec.png
Then something happened.

Note the 'event' at 12.35 sec in your accelerometer data:
tkf-h550-c40831-accel-15-sec.png
And in your gyro data:
tkf-h550-c40831-gyro-15-sec.png

Was your Wildman Jr set up for dual deploy ?

Did you fly with motor eject and also blue raven ?

Or something else altogether?

Whee !

-- kjh

p.s. I must REALLY love doing this ... you should see me trying to type on my tiny-a** phone keyboard 😀
 
Glad you got your rocket back. kjh and I are both seeing the high noise level in the barometric data after apogee and recovery deployment. I go to extreme measures to prevent sunlight interference with painting the interior of my avionics bays black.

Your tracker anomaly probably is interference from another tracker on the same frequency.
Please, see attached photos of my NC and av bay set up.. the only light i see possible is through the Av bay vent holes.. I do like your idea of painting the interior black to help cut down noise.. thanks!
 

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Switched to my phone so I could attach some plots.

It looks like you had a beautiful, straight up flight from liftoff until 12.35 sec or so.

Less than 1.5 roll rotations from liftoff to apogee!
View attachment 667954
Then something happened.

Note the 'event' at 12.35 sec in your accelerometer data:
View attachment 667955
And in your gyro data:
View attachment 667956

Was your Wildman Jr set up for dual deploy ?

Did you fly with motor eject and also blue raven ?

Or something else altogether?

Whee !

-- kjh

p.s. I must REALLY love doing this ... you should see me trying to type on my tiny-a** phone keyboard 😀
Switched to my phone so I could attach some plots.

It looks like you had a beautiful, straight up flight from liftoff until 12.35 sec or so.

Less than 1.5 roll rotations from liftoff to apogee!
View attachment 667954
Then something happened.

Note the 'event' at 12.35 sec in your accelerometer data:
View attachment 667955
And in your gyro data:
View attachment 667956

Was your Wildman Jr set up for dual deploy ?

Did you fly with motor eject and also blue raven ?

Or something else altogether?

Whee !

-- kjh

p.s. I must REALLY love doing this ... you should see me trying to type on my tiny-a** phone keyboard 😀

Switched to my phone so I could attach some plots.

It looks like you had a beautiful, straight up flight from liftoff until 12.35 sec or so.

Less than 1.5 roll rotations from liftoff to apogee!
View attachment 667954
Then something happened.

Note the 'event' at 12.35 sec in your accelerometer data:
View attachment 667955
And in your gyro data:
View attachment 667956

Was your Wildman Jr set up for dual deploy ?

Did you fly with motor eject and also blue raven ?

Or something else altogether?

Whee !

-- kjh

p.s. I must REALLY love doing this ... you should see me trying to type on my tiny-a** phone keyboard 😀
Kjh
Yes sir.. I used both motor ejection, at h550st14, as a backup, OR suggested 13.2 i believe, and the Blue Raven at apogee.. I didn't modify the motor eject in any way..
No sir, it was set up for single deployment..
I didn't notice the anomaly until you pointed it out, now I'm back to the laptop to peruse the data.
What i did notice was that after deployment the rocket caught numerous thermals and rose and fell for a while.
Thanks so much for your help, I've invested in numerous FW products, and understanding them is key to my future success.. and fellow fliers, as well..
 
I've never used any of the equipment that you had on board, so this is based on only on my experience at AirFest. I use radio trackers, I also had some pretty long hikes looking for rockets, they were retrieved intact after some long distance walks. The rockets were actually not that far away. The problem was caused by interference by other fliers tracker transmitters operating on the same frequency that I was using. I had checked to make sure that the frequency was clear while prepping the rocket by scanning the area with my receiver before activating the transmitter. After launch, I discovered that another transmitter had been activated as my receiver was now receiving two signals. Depending on the placement of the unwanted transmitter, this can really cause problems. The second occurrence on Sunday required that I get the other transmitter turned off in order to locate my 4" Bolt. It was in the bean field and invisible until I got pretty close. Thanks again to Tony for his help in locating this one.

Jim
 
As the altimeter manufacturers are ALL well aware of the issue of sunlight hitting sensors, why are we still getting this issue. Design the issue out. Bad design from the manufacturer.
 
Unfortunately I didn't stumble into these coordinates until way late into my search.. and they only served to confuse my muddled understanding.
 
Unfortunately I didn't stumble into these coordinates until way late into my search.. and they only served to confuse my muddled understanding.
As the altimeter manufacturers are ALL well aware of the issue of sunlight hitting sensors, why are we still getting this issue. Design the issue out. Bad design from the manufacturer.
Maybe someone will come up with a tinted shroud, polarized lenses for the avionics enthusiasts.. I can see numerous safety glasses being disassembled in my near future.. hmmm
 
Those coordinates are ~535 feet apart. I would assume your tracker picked up the signal from another tracker transmitter.
That's what I'm assuming also, as they took me to the away cell, amid the debris of the WAC Corporal.. the data shows it drifted for almost 90 seconds or more, with the main out at apogee, it's almost impossible for it to fall that straight..
 
Unfortunately I didn't stumble into these coordinates until way late into my search.. and they only served to confuse my muddled understanding.

Maybe someone will come up with a tinted shroud, polarized lenses for the avionics enthusiasts.. I can see numerous safety glasses being disassembled in my near future.. hmmm
I shroud my barometric sensors on 4 sides, paint the interior flat black, and I can still detect the variance in sunlight entering the avionics bay as the rocket rolls. Attached is a graph of a flight where the interior was not painted flat black. Once painted black, I need to run an algorithm that extracts the hidden roll data making it visible.
 

Attachments

  • Sunlight Changing Altitude.png
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I now have a better understanding of Adrian's tracking system. The last coordinate, I think from your rocket, places it 2144 feet ESE in the field toward S. Dixon Rd.

I'll need the complete ground tracker file, not just the anomaly, to get a better coordination on your rocket's landing position.

It helps being a DIYer. I find that Adrian and I have similar thought and coding skills.
 
I now have a better understanding of Adrian's tracking system. The last coordinate, I think from your rocket, places it 2144 feet ESE in the field toward S. Dixon Rd.

I'll need the complete ground tracker file, not just the anomaly, to get a better coordination on your rocket's landing position.

It helps being a DIYer. I find that Adrian and I have similar thought and coding skills.
This is all the data I have.. I downloaded what I could, and tried to reset everything from scratch by re installing the FW App, and updating the firmware.. since I was installing a new set of 29 form factor BR, and GPS tracker..
Thanks for the input, I'm learning tons just by you gentlemen taking the time to help me understand..
I'm humbled by the general since of comradery and good will of this community..
 
@Tookanforever --

EDIT: never mind I can see the Blue Raven plywood battery retainer in the first pic that you posted ... but same Q for the GPS still applies ...

One last Q ... I see that you fly the Featherweight 38mm av-bay.

When I looked at your pics of the Blue Raven, I don't see the plywood battery retainer.

How do you secure your Blue Raven battery ?

And how do you secure the battery for your GPS ?

Is it possible that there was a momentary disconnect in flight ?

I destroyed a rocket last fall when I did not secure the battery connection to a FW mag switch.

The Blue Raven ejected a streamer as planned at apogee.

However there was enough shock on ejection to turn off the mag switch break the connection between the battery and the mag switch which turned off RESET the Blue Raven so my main did not deploy,

Landing on a streamer is not always fatal, especially for a small BT 55 size rocket, but in this case I landed tail-first on an asphalt runway which tore it up beyond repair.

There was a 60+G shock when your main came out at apogee:
tkf-h550-c40831-accel.png
I don't believe you lost power to your Blue Raven -- the data is continuous from liftoff to landing.

But I can't tell about your GPS ...

the moral of my long story is: Be sure that your batteries and wires are secure so that you don't lose power in flight !

-- kjh

EDIT: I meant to include this plot. It is a plot of (x,y,z) accel between 12 and 18 seconds. Interesting events but I am not sure what was behind them ...
tkf-h550-c40831-accel-12-18-sec.png
Does the BP in your av-bay charge well 'kick' your nose cone forward if the nose is free of the airframe ?

EDIT: I should have mentioned this way back when ... I saw in the data and in your pics that you're flying your Blue Raven 38mm av-bay 'Active-End down'. My scripts inverted your x-acceleration so that it 'looks correct' wrt the rocket's direction of flight.
 
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Kjh,
Please see the attached photos of how I wire my gps inside my NC.. I was wondering if the battery being horizontal to the thrust if it inadvertently caused a brief short of something..
I flew a similar set up in my 2.6 aim 54 Phoenix, except it had an eggtimer ion.. and it too lost connection, upon landing..
Maybe if I change the orientation of my battery to being inline with the thrust it should push the connection together more securely. 🤔
I don't understand what happened at the main, I had no deployment charge connected..
Another anomaly is that after the apogee fires, the current drops to .1 i believe as it should but later in the flight, during descent the current rises again to over 1..
But alas I am only beginning to try and comprehend what occurred, and I'm learning to ask better questions..
So many variables.. 😆
Sorry if I missed answering anything..
Thanks again for your help!
 

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Kjh,
Please see the attached photos of how I wire my gps inside my NC.. I was wondering if the battery being horizontal to the thrust if it inadvertently caused a brief short of something..
I flew a similar set up in my 2.6 aim 54 Phoenix, except it had an eggtimer ion.. and it too lost connection, upon landing..
Maybe if I change the orientation of my battery to being inline with the thrust it should push the connection together more securely. 🤔
I don't understand what happened at the main, I had no deployment charge connected..
Another anomaly is that after the apogee fires, the current drops to .1 i believe as it should but later in the flight, during descent the current rises again to over 1..
But alas I am only beginning to try and comprehend what occurred, and I'm learning to ask better questions..
So many variables.. 😆
Sorry if I missed answering anything..
Thanks again for your help!
There is no difference with mounting the battery horizontally or in-line with the thrust vector. I recommend checking the battery wires for insulation cuts or scrapes. Running the wires across the mounting bolt threads is not recommended. That can result in shorts and power loss. I also noticed the tracker battery connection a little twisted. It could be normal manufacturing tolerances. I've subjected electronics, batteries, and connectors to 900 G's of deceleration. Electronics and connectors can tolerate thousands of G's. As a semiconductor engineer, we designed chips and MEMS to tolerate 10,000 G shock. All of the batteries, I've tested, failed above 500 G's.

From the data you have presented, it was fortunate that you walked over to the WAC-Corporal debris area. At that location you were within range of a transmitter on the ground, at ~1800 ft away. Your receiver collected 6 packets of good location data before you moved away. I can only assume it was your rocket.

What do you do with 70 years of experience with amateur, model, High Power, and professional aerospace engineering when you retire? Help others.
 
There is no difference with mounting the battery horizontally or in-line with the thrust vector. I recommend checking the battery wires for insulation cuts or scrapes. Running the wires across the mounting bolt threads is not recommended. That can result in shorts and power loss. I also noticed the tracker battery connection a little twisted. It could be normal manufacturing tolerances. I've subjected electronics, batteries, and connectors to 900 G's of deceleration. Electronics and connectors can tolerate thousands of G's. As a semiconductor engineer, we designed chips and MEMS to tolerate 10,000 G shock. All of the batteries, I've tested, failed above 500 G's.

From the data you have presented, it was fortunate that you walked over to the WAC-Corporal debris area. At that location you were within range of a transmitter on the ground, at ~1800 ft away. Your receiver collected 6 packets of good location data before you moved away. I can only assume it was your
What do you do with 70 years of experience with amateur, model, High Power, and professional aerospace engineering when you retire? Help others.

What do you do with 70 years of experience with amateur, model, High Power, and professional aerospace engineering when you retire? Help others.
A Noble answer indeed, Sir. You are very much appreciated!
 
There is no difference with mounting the battery horizontally or in-line with the thrust vector. I recommend checking the battery wires for insulation cuts or scrapes. Running the wires across the mounting bolt threads is not recommended. That can result in shorts and power loss. I also noticed the tracker battery connection a little twisted. It could be normal manufacturing tolerances. I've subjected electronics, batteries, and connectors to 900 G's of deceleration. Electronics and connectors can tolerate thousands of G's. As a semiconductor engineer, we designed chips and MEMS to tolerate 10,000 G shock. All of the batteries, I've tested, failed above 500 G's.

From the data you have presented, it was fortunate that you walked over to the WAC-Corporal debris area. At that location you were within range of a transmitter on the ground, at ~1800 ft away. Your receiver collected 6 packets of good location data before you moved away. I can only assume it was your rocket.

What do you do with 70 years of experience with amateur, model, High Power, and professional aerospace engineering when you retire? Help others.
Did you derive any coordinates that I can use to get a better visual.. wonder what I missed in my search, directionally, etc.
Thanks again!
 
TRACKERDATETIMEGS LatGS LonGS Alt aslTRACKER LatTRACKER LonTRACKER Alt aslHEADFLAGS#TOTHorizontal range (ft)Alt AGL (ft)Total range (ft)LoRa Max Range (kft)LoRa Success RateBATTGS_batt_v
Tookanforev
########​
45:02.7​
37.16767​
-97.7398​
1265.6​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0x00
0​
0​
-1265.6​
1265.6​
0​
0%​
3.694​
3.6159999​
Tookanforev
########​
45:03.7​
37.16652​
-97.7389​
1249.9​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0x00
0​
0​
-1249.948​
1249.948​
0​
0%​
3.694​
3.622​
Tookanforev
########​
58:37.7​
37.16652​
-97.7389​
1253.2​
37.16611​
-97.73257​
1294.4​
-102​
0x01
7​
1845.59​
41.283​
1846.05​
8243.94​
100%​
3.698​
3.612​
Tookanforev
########​
58:38.7​
37.16652​
-97.7389​
1253.3​
37.16611​
-97.73257​
1294.4​
-102​
0x01
7​
1845.55​
41.112​
1846.005​
18455.473​
100%​
3.699​
3.6110001​
Tookanforev
########​
05:44.7​
37.16651​
-97.7389​
1246​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0x00
0​
0​
-1246.007​
1246.007​
0​
100%​
3.687​
3.6040001​
Tookanforev
########​
05:57.7​
37.16651​
-97.7389​
1246.1​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0x00
0​
0​
-1246.096​
1246.096​
0​
100%​
3.688​
3.6070001​
Tookanforev
########​
06:00.7​
37.16651​
-97.7389​
1246​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0x00
0​
0​
-1246.007​
1246.007​
0​
100%​
3.688​
3.5829999​


I'm not familiar with the Featherweight GPS Tracker or its App. Your Ground Station recorded data for 2 seconds from a Tracker in the field to the East of the launch area. At time stamp 58:37.7 and 58:38.7 you have the Ground Station location and altitude with a Tracker location and altitude. The HEAD column gives the direction from North at 102° ESE, at a distance of 1846 feet. If the data was displayed for only 2 seconds, I can see it being missed. Adrian of Featherweight might give more information.
 
@Tookanforever --

What @Spacedog49Krell said +1

I am completely unfamiliar with the Featherweight GPS.

And I am pretty clumsy in Google Earth.

And I've never been to the KloudBusters Rocket Pasture Site ... but wtf ... :)

I entered the GS ( lat,lon ) = ( 37.16652,-97.7389 ) and the Tracker ( lat,lon ) = ( 37.16611,-97.73257 ) into GoogleEarth and then I looked up the GPS Coordinates of the Rocket Pasture and entered them too.

Does this look like a reasonable representation of The Rocket Pasture ?
Screenshot_20240923_043713.png
And does the yellow placemarker about 2,200 ft ESE of the Rocket Pasture Pin look like a reasonable landing location for your rocket ?

Adrian will be back later this week after driving back to CO from Balls in NV and I imagine he will be able to make sense of your GPS data.

HTH

-- kjh

EDIT: p.s. I don't see any problem with your battery orientation or connections :) :)
 
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