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BABAR

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It’s funny how people refer frequently to the constitution.

To a large extent, the main constutional relevance to mask wearing is the 10th Amendment

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people”

The Federal Government cannot force you to wear a mask. It doesn’t have that authority, the State, County, and City Governments can do anything that isn’t specifically restricted BY the Constitution. I tried to pick up a bottle of wine for my wife on my way home (I work nights.). It was 7:35 a.m., in Sunday. I was told I couldn’t buy it until 8 a.m.

On another vein, I did meet my friend for breakfast yesterday at Perkins restaurant. Almost whole place empty. They seated 4 separate parties, all at immediately ADJACENT tables. Aaargh!
 

cwbullet

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The Federal Government cannot force you to wear a mask. It doesn’t have that authority, the State, County, and City Governments can do anything that isn’t specifically restricted BY the Constitution.
This most certainly is true, but executive orders are a little murky. Watch the political statements, but it is true that states have primary right to regulate these sorts of behaviors unless there is a state of emergency.
 

jlabrasca

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Which massively impacts on the quality of seal the mask has on your face. Ideally if you're going to wear facial hair it would conform to the chart below.

Which doesn't mention beards at all. Thanks?
The graphic you posted is from here


It is about tight-fitting resprators worn as Personal Protective Equipment


The masks being discussed in this thread are not intended to protect the wearer. They are intended to protect other people from the wearer. The idea is to reduce the virus-carrying particles in the air around an infected person.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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You drive through my town and go to stores no ones wearing masks. I guess my whole town is an embarrassment.
You might come to see your town as an embarrassment before long, or people whose opinions matter to you might come to see you that way. Things change very quickly once the virus finally arrives in town. Shame and embarrassment are part of that process. You may have friends and family who live in other parts of the country going through a very different experience than you so far, and who knows what they may be thinking of you and your town.

I recently had a conversation with a close family member on this topic of being an embarrassment. I’m active on social media and since March or so, no one I know has been posting any images of themselves that do’t conform to public health guidelines for social distancing and all the other advice. Seriously, no one. It used to be very common to see people posting selfies with their faces cheek-to-cheek, large group shots, groups of friends together at a restaurant, all the usual close social conduct that most people aren’t doing anymore. Now you don’t see any of that on social media. A lot of what you see is posts of people showing how they are coping.

My family member I’m talking about is not the most informed person and has always been extremely social. They have been losing their mind over social distancing. So when restaurants and bars reopened in their area, they were all over that! But it seems like they also interpreted the reopening to mean that if you are in a bar or restaurant, then social distancing doesn’t apply. For about a week they posted picture after picture of the pre-corona style selfies and group shots, tagging their friends and other family members in the pics. When I finally noticed it, I was shocked. During my conversation with the person, I don’t really think that I convinced them that the actual behaviors are as unsafe as they are. But they IMMEDIATELY understood that there could be a social cost to them and anyone else tagged in a photo blowing off the rules. People might not say anything, but they notice that kind of thing and it can change how they think of you. The person knew they looked irresponsible, and they had made others look irresponsible, and they were definitely embarrassed to realize their mistake.
 

cerving

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It’s funny how people refer frequently to the constitution.

To a large extent, the main constutional relevance to mask wearing is the 10th Amendment

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people”

The Federal Government cannot force you to wear a mask. It doesn’t have that authority, the State, County, and City Governments can do anything that isn’t specifically restricted BY the Constitution. I tried to pick up a bottle of wine for my wife on my way home (I work nights.). It was 7:35 a.m., in Sunday. I was told I couldn’t buy it until 8 a.m.

On another vein, I did meet my friend for breakfast yesterday at Perkins restaurant. Almost whole place empty. They seated 4 separate parties, all at immediately ADJACENT tables. Aaargh!
Fearless Leader won't wear a mask anyway, so his example wouldn't be taken very seriously... along with a lot of the other things that he says and does.

Here in CA, the Gubner has laid out a very explicit and detailed set of social distancing and mask wearing guidelines, basically if you're in public and around people then you have to wear a mask. Businesses grumbled about the rather lengthy set of regulations for re-opening, but when there are detailed and explicit guidelines then you don't have the situation like you found at Perkins since there isn't much room for interpretation. CA did their homework in that regard. Honestly, everything seems pretty much normal to me... none of the restrictions have kept me from going anywhere or doing anything that I normally would do (except for launching with ROC, but that's a different topic).
 

TBob

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I will not wear a mask. There is no constitutional authority that makes the government require masks. When you allow the government to take control of your life that's when you give away freedom and liberty. You end up with tyranny. I will not report to any government agencies where I have or plan to travel too, I guess that is called tracing of some kind. I understand people are high risk but if they are high risk they should not be out in public. I am not high risk but I choose not to travel. I have not left my town in over 3 months, still attend work. I am taking 2020 off from rocket launches. When I do go out I dont wear a mask. Maybe 2021 will have more common sense and less hysteria.
Very nice of you to tell me, one of the many higher risk people, to not go out in public. I, like you, have a job and prefer to go and earn a living. That means that I am out in public some of the time. Your no-mask wearing arrogance and lack of empathy for your fellow humans puts me at higher risk.
BTW, what happened to your other 2 or more forum usernames? They all get banned permanently? Just curious.
 
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OverTheTop

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I will guarantee you will be embarrassed if it turns out you end up in the middle of an infection cluster. Here in Melbourne one family has been responsible for a large chunk of a major spike in Victoria. 75 new cases yesterday, 49 the day before. Still accelerating. There is talk about locking down entire suburbs if it gets much worse. Think of the social and financial impacts on the fallout from that cluster. How many other people are paying the price.

Other states are starting to treat anyone from our city as lepers. Yes, not adhering to the social distancing requirements has embarrassing outcomes, and the people involved should be embarrassed.
 

plugger

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The masks being discussed in this thread are not intended to protect the wearer. They are intended to protect other people from the wearer. The idea is to reduce the virus-carrying particles in the air around an infected person.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense in the slightest. If it protects others by "block[ing] respiratory droplets from being sprayed into the air when you talk, breathe, cough, or sneeze." logically it would also block the same droplets from the outside of the mask. That quote is from post 182 that you originally linked to. It also contains the following nugget. "Don’t touch the front of the mask, which is the most likely area to contain germs." Do you think those germs are yours and the medical advice is to not expose yourself to more of your germs? Of course not. They are other people's germs.

I started wearing a mask since mid-March when we were explicitly told they were unneccessary. Why? Because I knew the advice was BULLSH*T tailored to limit people from making a run on PPE. If sick people are being told to wear masks to limit spread to others, healthy people wearing masks would provide an added layer of protection to both the wearer and others, especially if that person is actually infected but asymptomatic. Didn't you find it kinda weird when the CDC did a complete 180 and started telling everyone(including those not infected) they should wear masks?
 

plugger

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Other states are starting to treat anyone from our city as lepers. Yes, not adhering to the social distancing requirements has embarrassing outcomes, and the people involved should be embarrassed.
Can confirm. Over here in Western Australia we've been an 'Island within an island' and I've been very pleased that we've kept the state borders shut to the rest of the country. I think it's done a lot to keep us protected from community spread.

I really hope y'all get on top of the situation over there OTT. Stay safe.
 

jlabrasca

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"Don’t touch the front of the mask, which is the most likely area to contain germs." Do you think those germs are yours and the medical advice is to not expose yourself to more of your germs? Of course not. They are other people's germs.
The worry is that you will touch the mask, then touch a hard surface like a door knob, faucet, counter top.
 

plugger

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The worry is that you will touch the mask, then touch a hard surface like a door knob, faucet, counter top.
Yes, thus spreading the germs that the mask has collected on its exterior and blocking you from inhaling them. So the front of the mask is accumulating other germs and you should be mindful of that by not touching the front of the mask, putting it on and taking it off by the sides, and treating the mask as a possible source of infection when you arrive home. I mean, it's not rocket appliances.

If masks didn't protect healthy people why would health care professionals wear them when when interacting with the sick?
 

kuririn

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Health care workers wear the N95 masks. The masks in general use are not N95 rated.
The jury is out on whether the cloth and paper masks have any value in protecting wearers from infectious carriers.
They protect people from the wearer if he is an asymptomatic spreader.
This is by restricting and re-directing the wearer's expiration around the face rather than straight out.
They do not seal and protect around the face like the surgical respirators which have rubber or plastic seals.
I also read between the lines when the CDC first issued their recommendations.
It was obvious that if N95 masks can protect health workers then they obviously could protect the general public.
But the CDC did not want to start a run on N95 masks so the recommendation became confusing to the public since they did not explain that.
And it became fuel for those that want to politicize the issue.
 

plugger

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Health care workers wear the N95 masks. The masks in general use are not N95 rated.
I've been wearing N95 masks as I already had them in house for working with composites.
 

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You know, I’m really glad the culture was different in WWII. “There’s no law that says I have to black out my windows!” would have gotten really old really fast when the bombs started falling or the U-boats were sinking ships offshore.
You do know that there were hundreds of ships sunk off the east coast by u-boats due to the lights of the cities back lighting them don't you? U-boat destruction on the east coast One quote from the article "In March, the U-boats attacked 48 ships, and almost all sank. They were easy prey as the U-boats could spot them easily against the lighted cars, buildings, streetlights and billboards along the coast. Ships continued to operate with all their lights on." Just sayin.......
Edit: Also saying that some planner had their head up their dark spot when they didn't predict this. I don't think they had enough info about the U-boats capabilities at that point tho.
 
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ThirstyBarbarian

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The question of who the mask protects most is an interesting one, but from a practical point of view, it really doesn’t mean much in terms of who should wear one and who doesn’t need to. The only time that kind of decision would come up is if you didn’t have enough masks to go around, and you knew who was infected and who wasn’t. That’s not a scenario that comes up. Once you know someone is infected, then you move beyond simple mask wearing to quarantine and more extreme types of PPE than the cloth face covering masks that people should be wearing.

From a public health point of view, everyone should wear at least a cloth face covering, because we don’t know who is infected and who is not. When someone says they don’t want to wear one and other people should wear one if they’re worried about infection, that’s when you hear the argument that the mask is not to protect the wearer, it’s to protect others. That is absolutely true, and it is not really based on the idea that the mask is more effective at screening outgoing droplets than incoming droplets. It’s about keeping the air and surfaces of the shared space from being contaminated. Even if the mask is equally effective at keeping droplets out as it is at keeping them in, it’s still in everyone’s interest to keep the contamination level down.

For example, say the mask screens out 70% of droplets going out or coming in, equally in both directions. If you have a room full of people and one is contagious and not wearing a mask, then those other people who are wearing one are breathing in only 30% of the droplets than they would be if they weren’t wearing a mask. But if the contagious person were also wearing a mask, the environment would only be 30% as contaminated, so the others who are wearing a mask would only be breathing in 9% of the droplets they would be if no one was wearing a mask. So wearing a mask definitely does protect others.
 

kuririn

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Edit: Also saying that some planner had their head up their dark spot when they didn't predict this. I don't think they had enough info about the U-boats capabilities at that point tho.
Agreed, and the fact that the military lied or covered up the U boat attacks is aggregious.
But the point that is to be made here is that if the government orders a blackout to thwart an enemy attack, by air or otherwise, it becomes useless if half the population complies and half says "Screw that, the government can't tell me what to do. Don't tread on me!" and leaves their lights on.
Would you agree?
 

PatD

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Agreed, and the fact that the military lied or covered up the U boat attacks is aggregious.
But the point that is to be made here is that if the government orders a blackout to thwart an enemy attack, by air or otherwise, it becomes useless if half the population complies and half says "Screw that, the government can't tell me what to do. Don't tread on me!" and leaves their lights on.
Would you agree?
I agree.
 

kuririn

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So, if we take that analogy to the current situation, If a state governor issues an order that all residents must wear a mask when going out in public to contain the spread of this virus, wouldn't that order be rendered useless if half the residents complied and half didn't?
 

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One thing I'd like to rant about masks is this: my wife, who is a pharmacist, is required to wear a mask while in the pharmacy. The company provides these junky KN-95 masks, but is stingy as to quantity, forcing them to reuse them for days at a time. She also has to wear a face shield when she comes to the front of the pharmacy to talk to patients/ring out at the register. All that AND she is behind a massive plexiglass barrier. After wearing that mask since late March, anywhere from 6 to 11 hours a day, she is developing asthma. She comes home woozy and lightheaded from having to wear a mask all the time. Her doc, who has previously put her on an inhaler just to use as needed when allergies strike/when she is snoring too loudly, now had to put her on an steroid inhaler, because her lungs are pretty irritated, and the levels of one of her white cells was quite elevated, indicating a problem.

Get this: the cashiers at the grocery store she works in get the "lesser" blue facecup type mask issued to them, and ZERO of them have gotten sick. But my wife has to wear the mask that is giving her such problems. I've told her to grab what the cashiers are using and if anyone bitches, say "I'll be glad to get a Dr's note saying I can't wear a mask at all, since I'm developing asthma from your mask". She did report the lesser mask was easier to breathe in. I don't want her to have a permanent problem with her lungs because of this, needless to say. But since she is fairly high risk due to age and taking immune suppressant drugs for psoritic arthritis, and we certainly don't want her to get sick either.
 

boatgeek

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You do know that there were hundreds of ships sunk off the east coast by u-boats due to the lights of the cities back lighting them don't you? U-boat destruction on the east coast One quote from the article "In March, the U-boats attacked 48 ships, and almost all sank. They were easy prey as the U-boats could spot them easily against the lighted cars, buildings, streetlights and billboards along the coast. Ships continued to operate with all their lights on." Just sayin.......
Edit: Also saying that some planner had their head up their dark spot when they didn't predict this. I don't think they had enough info about the U-boats capabilities at that point tho.
@kuririn covered the main points, but yes I was aware that U-boats sank a lot of Allied shipping, in part because they could easily see the silhouettes. Hence why blackout orders (like this one) were issued. The U-boats had been operating against British shipping for 2.5 years by this point, and had sunk some US-flag ships, so their capabilities were well known. Unfortunately, the planners were not on top of that.
 

dr wogz

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Interesting article. But as we see here in Canada, all levels of government (municipal, provincial, and federal) are pushing mask wearing. It's a behavioral thing, and one that will take time to get everyone on board. But it has to come from the top, and be a collective push to get all on board.. Sadly, politics these days is all about 'being against' rather than trying to come together in these times..
 

Winston

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Among other things, these were covered in that video:

Asymptomatic COVID-19 findings dim hopes for 'herd immunity' and 'immunity passports'
Antibodies few and short-lived, lung abnormalities found in asymptomatic carriers
Jun 28, 2020


A closer look at people who tested positive for COVID-19 but never developed symptoms has found that such asymptomatic carriers have few to no detectable antibodies just weeks after infection, suggesting they may not develop lasting immunity.

There's growing evidence that a significant proportion of people who test positive for COVID-19 never show symptoms, although it's not clear what percentage of people that is and what role they play in spreading the disease.

A Chinese study published this week in Nature followed 37 people in Wanzhou District in China who did not show any outward signs of the disease, despite testing positive when their respiratory tracts were swabbed and being kept in hospital for observation.

Some key findings include:

Levels of antibodies against COVID-19 were significantly lower in asymptomatic carriers than those with symptoms during active infection.

Antibody levels also dropped off far more quickly in people who never showed symptoms, and 40 per cent of them had no detectable antibodies eight weeks after recovery, compared with 13 per cent of symptomatic patients.
[the really bad news there is that even 1 in 8 of symptomatic cases had no detectable antibodies just two months after recovery - W]

Those with asymptomatic infections tested positive for an average of five days longer than people with symptomatic infections — 19 days compared with 14 days — suggesting that they were shedding the virus longer.

The study also found that despite having no outward symptoms, 70 per cent had lung abnormalities detectable in X-rays at some point during infection — mostly spots called "ground-glass opacities," which can indicate inflammation or other signs of disease.



Coronavirus autopsies: A story of 38 brains, 87 lungs and 42 hearts
July 1, 2020


Excerpts:

When pathologist Amy Rapkiewicz began the grim process of opening up the coronavirus dead to learn how their bodies went awry, she found damage to the lungs, kidneys and liver consistent with what doctors had reported for months.

But something was off.

Rapkiewicz, who directs autopsies at NYU Langone Health, noticed that some organs had far too many of a special type of cell rarely found in those places. She had never seen that before, yet it seemed vaguely familiar. She raced to her history books and — in a eureka moment — found a reference to a 1960s report on a patient with dengue fever.

In dengue, a mosquito-borne tropical disease, she learned, the virus appeared to destroy these cells, which produce platelets, leading to uncontrolled bleeding. The novel coronavirus seemed to amplify their effect, causing dangerous clotting.

She was struck by the parallels: “COVID-19 and dengue sound really different, but the cells that are involved are similar.”

Among the most important findings, consistent across several studies, is confirmation the virus appears to attack the lungs the most ferociously. They also found the pathogen in parts of the brain, kidneys, liver, gastrointestinal tract, spleen and in the endothelial cells that line blood vessels, as some had previously suspected. Researchers also found widespread clotting in many organs.

An early study from China, published in the BMJ, formerly the British Medical Journal, in March, found 22% of the 113 patients had experienced neurological issues ranging from excessive sleepiness to coma — conditions typically grouped together as disorders of consciousness. In June, researchers in France reported that 84% of patients in intensive care had neurological issues, and a third were confused or disoriented at discharge. Also this month, those in the United Kingdom found that 57 of 125 coronavirus patients with a new neurological or psychiatric diagnosis had had a stroke due to a blood clot in the brain, and 39 had an altered mental state.


Neurological and neuropsychiatric complications of COVID-19 in 153 patients: a UK-wide surveillance study - 25 Jun 2020


Background

Concerns regarding potential neurological complications of COVID-19 are being increasingly reported, primarily in small series. Larger studies have been limited by both geography and specialty. Comprehensive characterisation of clinical syndromes is crucial to allow rational selection and evaluation of potential therapies. The aim of this study was to investigate the breadth of complications of COVID-19 across the UK that affected the brain.


Meet the Covid-19 'long-haulers' whose symptoms won't seem to go away
June 9, 2020

 

Winston

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I searched specifically for older studies conducted before the current politicization of mask wear. These are just a few representative samples.

Mask use, hand hygiene, and seasonal influenza-like illness among young adults: A randomized intervention trial

The Journal of Infectious Diseases, Volume 201, Issue 4, 15 February 2010, Pages 491–498, https://doi.org/10.1086/650396

Published: 15 February 2010


Results. We observed significant reductions in influenza-like illness (ILI) during weeks 4–6 in the mask and hand hygiene group, compared with the control group, ranging from 35% (confidence interval [CI], 9%–53%) to 51% (CI, 13%–73%), after adjusting for vaccination and other covariates. Face mask use alone showed a similar reduction in ILI compared with the control group, but adjusted estimates were not statistically significant. Neither face mask use and hand hygiene nor face mask use alone was associated with a significant reduction in the rate of ILI cumulatively.

Conclusions. These findings suggest that face masks and hand hygiene may reduce respiratory illnesses in shared living settings and mitigate the impact of the influenza A(H1N1) pandemic.


Volume 15, Number 2—February 2009
CME ACTIVITY - Research
Face Mask Use and Control of Respiratory Virus Transmission in Households


Adherence to mask use was associated with a significantly reduced risk of ILI-associated infection.

Published online 2010 Feb 10. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0009018
Mathematical Modeling of the Effectiveness of Facemasks in Reducing the Spread of Novel Influenza A (H1N1)


The results show that if N95 respirators are only 20% effective in reducing susceptibility and infectivity, only 10% of the population would have to wear them to reduce the number of influenza A (H1N1) cases by 20%. We can conclude from our model that, if worn properly, facemasks are an effective intervention strategy in reducing the spread of pandemic (H1N1) 2009.
 

rockladen

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Very nice of you to tell me, one of the many higher risk people, to not go out in public. I, like you, have a job and prefer to go and earn a living. That means that I am out in public some of the time. Your no-mask wearing arrogance and lack of empathy for your fellow humans puts me at higher risk.
BTW, what happened to your other 2 or more forum usernames? They all get banned permanently? Just curious.
Well said!! Totally agree.
 

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