# Mask Wearing Rant

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#### grouch

##### Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if they are even polling people who tested positive if they were wearing a mask in public or not. Even then, people lie, and people who are adamant that they don't need a mask are more likely to lie and backpedal when/if they become positive for Covid-19.
But but....we are told that wearing mask is for the benefit of others assuming you are asymptomatic. So what difference does it make if someone catches it is not wearing a mask or not. Who cares if they lie or not, it only means that they were in contact with someone not wearing a mask right??? So which is it? Wear a mask to protect yourself or others?

#### kuririn

##### BARGeezer
TRF Supporter
So why do you have to call people that don't wear mask idjits? Does it give you a sense of superiority? Dampen the dogma and understand there are people who think and believe differently that you and act accordingly.
From the op ed I linked to above:
"If you’re on a lifeboat with several other people and everyone agrees to ration the fresh water, but your answer is, “Shut up, I’m thirsty,” being the sole dissenter makes you the jerk, not the hero."

Substitute idjit for jerk.
I stand by my statement.

#### grouch

##### Well-Known Member
I guess there is no room for logic in your wheelhouse. Carry on my friend.

#### kuririn

##### BARGeezer
TRF Supporter
If you don't understand the analogy, nothing further I can do to help you get it.
Peace.

#### BABAR

##### Builds Rockets for NASA
TRF Supporter
So why do you have to call people that don't wear mask idjits? Does it give you a sense of superiority? Dampen the dogma and understand there are people who think and believe differently that you and act accordingly.
Nobody should call anyone not wearing masks idiots. It does however remind me of the rabbi on Fiddler on the Roof.

When asked if there was a blessing for the Czar, he replied, “A blessing for the Czar? Of course, my son. May God bless and keep the Czar.....far away from us!”

#### Marc_G

##### Well-Known Member
Nobody should call anyone not wearing masks idiots. It does however remind me of the rabbi on Fiddler on the Roof.

When asked if there was a blessing for the Czar, he replied, “A blessing for the Czar? Of course, my son. May God bless and keep the Czar.....far away from us!”
Look, in public, one should wear a mask until this disease runs its course one way or another. Period. It's a fact, not an opinion. You can google all manner of pages that show how the masks inhibit the spread of droplets from the nose and mount. Many have great laser light displays showing the difference between masks and no masks. Here is one. It's a fact. Masks reduce the spread of COVID-19-carrying droplets when someone infectious breaths, talks, coughs, or sneezes. Six feet isn't a magic distancing number, it's a practical balance between what's possible and what's helpful.

Most of the infectious people in public are either pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic... in either case, they are certain they aren't sick, because they have no reason to think they are sick. Recent study in Indiana showed almost half of infectious people never get symptoms. These are the folks spreading it the most.

If we don't slow the spread, we're going back to lockdown. Nobody wants that. So wear a mask.

#### Tyeeking

##### Well-Known Member
Look, in public, one should wear a mask until this disease runs its course one way or another. Period. It's a fact, not an opinion.
Actually that is the very definition of an opinion. Given that we were told we needed to “lockdown until the curve was flattened” and then for many of us the lockdown continued to well after that, many folks have a well founded skepticism of doing certain things of questionable benefit until something as vague as “until the disease runs its course”.

#### Tyeeking

##### Well-Known Member
Here is one. It's a fact. Masks reduce the spread of COVID-19-carrying droplets when someone infectious breaths, talks, coughs, or sneezes. Six feet isn't a magic distancing number, it's a practical balance between what's possible and what's helpful.

Most of the infectious people in public are either pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic... in either case, they are certain they aren't sick, because they have no reason to think they are sick. Recent study in Indiana showed almost half of infectious people never get symptoms. These are the folks spreading it the most.
Your link is for a cough not speaking or breathing. Asymptotic people by definition are not coughing and sneezing. They’re supposed to stay home. Also please show a link with the data supporting your claim that “ . . . almost half of infectious people never get symptoms AND these are the folks spreading it the most”. I’d be very interested in seeing that data.

#### Marc_G

##### Well-Known Member
Your link is for a cough not speaking or breathing. Asymptotic people by definition are not coughing and sneezing. They’re supposed to stay home. Also please show a link with the data supporting your claim that “ . . . almost half of infectious people never get symptoms AND these are the folks spreading it the most”. I’d be very interested in seeing that data.
A large study was done in Indiana that found 45% of infected had no symptoms:

IUPUI scientists estimate the infection-fatality rate for the novel coronavirus in Indiana to be 0.58 percent, making it nearly six times more deadly than the seasonal flu, which has an infection-fatality rate of 0.1, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Menachemi said the research team found that about 45 percent of people who tested positive for active viral infection reported no symptoms at all.

Source: https://news.iu.edu/stories/2020/05...ings-impact-covid-19-indiana-coronavirus.html

For the most part symptomatic people stay in these days I should think. The problem is that there is a significant number of people without symptoms, either asymptomatic pre-symptomatic.

Google Covid spread by breath droplets and you will get lots of hits. Breathing spreads the disease as does talking... Both send small droplets with virus out. Simple cloth masks reduce the spread. For gosh sakes it worked in 1918 and would work now.

#### Marc_G

##### Well-Known Member
Article on spread through breathing and talking.

#### Tyeeking

##### Well-Known Member
A large study was done in Indiana that found 45% of infected had no symptoms:

IUPUI scientists estimate the infection-fatality rate for the novel coronavirus in Indiana to be 0.58 percent, making it nearly six times more deadly than the seasonal flu, which has an infection-fatality rate of 0.1, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Menachemi said the research team found that about 45 percent of people who tested positive for active viral infection reported no symptoms at all.

Source: https://news.iu.edu/stories/2020/05...ings-impact-covid-19-indiana-coronavirus.html

For the most part symptomatic people stay in these days I should think. The problem is that there is a significant number of people without symptoms, either asymptomatic pre-symptomatic.

Google Covid spread by breath droplets and you will get lots of hits. Breathing spreads the disease as does talking... Both send small droplets with virus out. Simple cloth masks reduce the spread. For gosh sakes it worked in 1918 and would work now.
You claimed that asymptotic people are “spreading the virus the most”. That is the data I am asking for. Still waiting.

You posted a link for how a cough, which is a symptom, spreads and then claim that as a reason for asymptotic people who have no cough to wear a mask. That makes zero sense.

Do you have data on your claim that simple cloth masks worked to reduce the spread of the Spanish Flu in 1918 or is that more conjecture presented as fact? I’m asking because over 650,000 people in the US died from the Spanish Flu which would suggest that simple cloth masks didn’t work as well as you claim.

#### Marc_G

##### Well-Known Member
You claimed that asymptotic people are “spreading the virus the most”. That is the data I am asking for. Still waiting.

You posted a link for how a cough, which is a symptom, spreads and then claim that as a reason for asymptotic people who have no cough to wear a mask. That makes zero sense.

Do you have data on your claim that simple cloth masks worked to reduce the spread of the Spanish Flu in 1918 or is that more conjecture presented as fact? I’m asking because over 650,000 people in the US died from the Spanish Flu which would suggest that simple cloth masks didn’t work as well as you claim.
Please read thoroughly the link posted just above from NIH.

#### Tyeeking

##### Well-Known Member
Please read thoroughly the link posted just above from NIH.
I read it. It is filled with a lot of “could”, “might be possible” and other qualifiers and concludes with . . .

“To conclude, the limitations of their experiment is that it is not yet known what volume of micro droplets leads to infection. The study recommends wearing mask to prevent from micro droplets infection, however, they do not highlight what type of mask ones should wear since the micro droplets are very tiny. Therefore, there is a need for in depth research to identify aerosols covid-19 transmission.”

Which basically says “we have no idea if micro droplets can cause infection or if the bandanas and other homemade cloth masks that people are wearing would even stop them” and that “people should wear unproven homemade masks because we don’t know if they are needed or not”.

#### ChicagoDave

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I read it. It is filled with a lot of “could”, “might be possible” and other qualifiers and concludes with . . .
If you want 100% proof you'll be waiting a very long time. And by that time, if we do nothing, we know R0 will be >1.0 And we know this because of empirical evidence from our own experience here in the USA. (e.g. Illinois, where I live, has an R0 of about .82 last I checked with one of the most strict lockdowns in the nation)

If you want to try to help reduce R0 then wear a mask and stay about 6 feet from others. Is that 100% foolproof? No way. But it's what we've got based on what we know and what we want to achieve. We can do no better at the moment. Why not try to follow the best advice we have currently? After all, what are you offering as a solution?

#### Tyeeking

##### Well-Known Member
If you want 100% proof you'll be waiting a very long time. And by that time, if we do nothing, we know R0 will be >1.0 And we know this because of empirical evidence from our own experience here in the USA. (e.g. Illinois, where I live, has an R0 of about .82 last I checked with one of the most strict lockdowns in the nation)

If you want to try to help reduce R0 then wear a mask and stay about 6 feet from others. Is that 100% foolproof? No way. But it's what we've got based on what we know and what we want to achieve. We can do no better at the moment. Why not try to follow the best advice we have currently? After all, what are you offering as a solution?
After all, what are you offering as a solution?
LOL. That is such a hack line that even politicians quit using it.

Masks are not a solution. They are a tool that in some settings the right mask may be beneficial but as a broad brush approach (any type of non standardized/tested homemade mask for all people in all public settings) might not be.

Don’t be afraid of direct questions. Engage with direct answers not worn out hack lines. By your logic anyone questioning how a tool is being used and the data around that tool must have a complete solution to the problem. That’s so tiresome.

#### Marc_G

##### Well-Known Member
I read it. It is filled with a lot of “could”, “might be possible” and other qualifiers and concludes with . . .

“To conclude, the limitations of their experiment is that it is not yet known what volume of micro droplets leads to infection. The study recommends wearing mask to prevent from micro droplets infection, however, they do not highlight what type of mask ones should wear since the micro droplets are very tiny. Therefore, there is a need for in depth research to identify aerosols covid-19 transmission.”

Which basically says “we have no idea if micro droplets can cause infection or if the bandanas and other homemade cloth masks that people are wearing would even stop them” and that “people should wear unproven homemade masks because we don’t know if they are needed or not”.
Until there is great evidence showing exact percentages and trade-offs, we should mask to the greatest extent we can. I started with a homemade cloth mask... even it significantly reduced velocity of air in from of my face when I talked or breathed out (candle test... simple but telling!). I've since gotten some fairly cheap masks off Amazon that are multi-layer with filters and they do even more. I don't know what percentage of droplet spread reduction they provide, but it's a hell of a lot more than nothing.

Everybody needs to assume they are a carrier, at this point, and act accordingly.

#### ChicagoDave

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
LOL. That is such a hack line that even politicians quit using it.

Masks are not a solution. They are a tool that in some settings the right mask may be beneficial but as a broad brush approach (any type of non standardized/tested homemade mask for all people in all public settings) might not be.

Don’t be afraid of direct questions. Engage with direct answers not worn out hack lines. By your logic anyone questioning how a tool is being used and the data around that tool must have a complete solution to the problem. That’s so tiresome.
Question all you like. Again, until we have more data what should we do? If you have no answer, then you're just debating yourself to debate.

Until we have a better answer why not follow the guidance from the people who's job it is to give such guidance?

#### FredA

##### Well-Known Member
Until we have a better answer why not follow the guidance from the people who's job it is to give such guidance?
Because covidiots are exercising their freedom of choice.
We can't fix stupid - I wish the virus would hurry and do it for us.......

#### Tyeeking

##### Well-Known Member
Until we have a better answer why not follow the guidance from the people who's job it is to give such guidance?
Simply put because they, the “experts” have been wrong on so many fronts. From models, to the need for ventilators, to the need for more hospital capacity, to ever shifting guidance on such things as masks and getting the virus off of surfaces, to some jurisdictions forcing nursing homes to accept COVID patients, to the effectiveness of travel bans, to “we just need these lockdowns to flatten the curve and protect against an overrun hospital system”. That’s why.

It’s our job as the governed to always question those we elect and non-elected bureaucrats. Good policies and guidance should welcome pointed questions not try to shut it down. Good policies and guidance will stand up to the rigors of questions from the governed.

Given that we have destroyed our economy and so many lives that depend on it and are in the process of destroying our health care system by driving clinics and practices to bankruptcy, we have an obligation now as much as anytime in my lifetime to question policies and guidance.

#### grouch

##### Well-Known Member
If you don't understand the analogy, nothing further I can do to help you get it.
Peace.
Understanding does not equal agreeing. Don't assume because I don't agree with you with me not understanding. Besides, I am not sure your motive is to help me.

#### grouch

##### Well-Known Member
Because covidiots are exercising their freedom of choice.
We can't fix stupid - I wish the virus would hurry and do it for us.......
Troll.

#### ThirstyBarbarian

##### Well-Known Member
My wife, who is a retail pharmacist, is required to wear not only a mask but a face shield for her entire shift, which is often 11 hours straight, with no breaks, maybe she gets to pee twice a day. She is constantly reporting headaches and wooziness, which are not condusive to filling prescriptions correctly and not killing someone. It is difficult for her to eat or drink - firstly there are enough busy-bullies out there that some of them actually complained to management when they saw her lift up a corner of her mask to insert a straw to drink or pop in a quick bite to eat so she doesn't starve all day. Management told her to go in the back and hide and remove the mask where the customers couldn't see her doing it. But she can't fill scripts or answer the customer's questions that way. And she certainly can't avoid touching that dirty mask - a lousy Chinese KN-95 by the way.

I have seen a study that checked surgeons who were wearing masks for procedures vs Co2 blood levels and symptoms at various lengths of mask wearing. I'd love to be able to link it now, but I seem to be unable to locate it again. I really wish I had bookmarked it. In any case, they found that there was a very significant increase in blood Co2 levels and it was indeed problematic. It seems that most studies of mask wearing vs Co2 levels seem to be for 1 to 3 hours (easier on the researchers that way?), not 6+ hours.

I've also seen a study wherein increased blood Co2 levels seem to correlate with immune system dysfunction, possibly making it easier for people who wear masks frequently (nurses, docs, surgeons) to become more vulnerable to infection.

If your wife is required to work 11-hour shifts without breaks, only has time to eat and drink while working, and has no opportunity to take off her mask and face shield for a breather, then the problem is her management and the screwed-up policies of her employer, not the mask. That sounds like a bad employer to me. Maybe not as bad as the no-masks-allowed, send-the-ladyfolk-home employer, but it’s still abusive, just in the completely opposite way. Sorry to hear that.

#### Bill S

##### Well-Known Member
Yes, and some news sources have said that the Covid-19 deaths in nursing homes may be under reported. This due to other causes being listed as the cause of death.
I am questioning the statement that 40% of all deaths are in nursing homes.
If your wife is required to work 11-hour shifts without breaks, only has time to eat and drink while working, and has no opportunity to take off her mask and face shield for a breather, then the problem is her management and the screwed-up policies of her employer, not the mask. That sounds like a bad employer to me. Maybe not as bad as the no-masks-allowed, send-the-ladyfolk-home employer, but it’s still abusive, just in the completely opposite way. Sorry to hear that.
Pretty much all retail pharmacies operate this way, its not just her employer. EVERY employer she has ever worked pharmacy at (4 in 28 years) is the same way. Long shifts, no breaks, lucky if you get to go to the bathroom a couple times a day. Labor laws don't apply to professionsals, unfortunately. Just the way the pharmacy industry is; pharmacy seems to attract the type of people who won't complain about being abused, and they won't organize to do something about it. It really sucks, but its the way it is. She is pretty much stuck with retail pharmacy; to do anything else with her degree would require 2-3 more years of schooling (when she graduated in '92 it was a 4 year program, now its 6 and sometimes 7 years. Being as a) the nearest pharmacy school in this state is 3 hours away, its hardly practical to attend, and b) she is the sole breadwinner so stopping work for 2-3 years isn't possible.

#### ThirstyBarbarian

##### Well-Known Member
The face mask is a symbol of fear and obedience.
Completely backwards.

We have seen other countries win the fight against this virus and lower the number of their citizens being infected every day. We know how they are doing it, but many of us Americans don’t seem to have what it takes to do it, and that’s why we are losing while others win. Wearing a mask and social distancing are sacrifices we make to win. But it seems like some people don’t want to do what it takes to fight this thing. They just want to give up. Wearing a mask is uncomfortable and makes me look weird! I don’t wanna do it! Waaaaaaaahhhhh! Boo-hoo! I give up!

That’s not bravery. That’s not the spirit that won the world wars or any of the other battles our country has won and obstacles we’ve overcome. It’s a loser mentality. What a bunch of pathetic, whiny weaklings so many of our countrymen have become. Can’t wear a mask for the benefit of your nation and fellow citizens, not to mention, yourself? What a bunch of literal losers who are losing this fight. It’s as if we decided to prove we weren’t afraid of the Nazis by giving up to them. Fighting just proves we are scared of them! Show ‘em we’re not afraid to die by letting them kill us!

#### ThirstyBarbarian

##### Well-Known Member
Pretty much all retail pharmacies operate this way, its not just her employer. EVERY employer she has ever worked pharmacy at (4 in 28 years) is the same way. Long shifts, no breaks, lucky if you get to go to the bathroom a couple times a day. Labor laws don't apply to professionsals, unfortunately. Just the way the pharmacy industry is; pharmacy seems to attract the type of people who won't complain about being abused, and they won't organize to do something about it. It really sucks, but its the way it is. She is pretty much stuck with retail pharmacy; to do anything else with her degree would require 2-3 more years of schooling (when she graduated in '92 it was a 4 year program, now its 6 and sometimes 7 years. Being as a) the nearest pharmacy school in this state is 3 hours away, its hardly practical to attend, and b) she is the sole breadwinner so stopping work for 2-3 years isn't possible.
That’s infuriating to hear. I didn’t realize that’s the way pharmacies typically operated.

#### CalebJ

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
That’s infuriating to hear. I didn’t realize that’s the way pharmacies typically operated.
My wife is in retail pharmacy and I can echo everything that was stated. The working conditions really are appalling.

#### kuririn

##### BARGeezer
TRF Supporter
Understanding does not equal agreeing. Don't assume because I don't agree with you with me not understanding. Besides, I am not sure your motive is to help me.
I don't have a motive. I was simply presenting my opinion. But since you mentioned not making assumptions, how does one post this
Dampen the dogma and understand there are people who think and believe differently that you and act accordingly.
And follow it up with this:
I guess there is no room for logic in your wheelhouse.
That is hypocritical. Like the parent who tells his children "Do as I say, not as I do".
Tolerance goes both ways my friend. You cannot tell others to be open minded without practicing it yourself.
And if you feel the lifeboat analogy is not logical feel free to present your case. It seems completely apropo to the situation to me.
And for the record, the "Idjit" statement referred to a business owner (I believe it was a bar) who posted a sign in defiance of state orders and medical recommendations. There is a more fitting term for that kind but I have no desire of being banned from this forum.
Over the Memorial Day weekend here there were two large massive beach parties in the dead of night. Mounds of trash left behind. Direct defiance of state orders banning large gatherings. I assume mostly young people, no masks, and no social distancing. I have no qualms about calling them idjits as well. Or rather, covidjits.
But but....we are told that wearing mask is for the benefit of others assuming you are asymptomatic. So what difference does it make if someone catches it is not wearing a mask or not. Who cares if they lie or not, it only means that they were in contact with someone not wearing a mask right??? So which is it? Wear a mask to protect yourself or others?
I don't pretend to be a medical professional, but this is my understanding from what I've read:
Medical research does not show any benefit in preventing infection for the wearer using non surgical grade masks. It does show limited benefit in preventing infection to others from an asymptomatic carrier shedding the virus. This does not mean an infected asymptomatic carrier wearing a mask cannot infect others. It is not an all or nothing, black and white scenario. The mask cuts down the distance the infected persons' exhaled respiratory droplets can travel, thus reducing (but not eliminating) the potential for infection.
Peace.

#### Tyeeking

##### Well-Known Member
Completely backwards.

We have seen other countries win the fight against this virus and lower the number of their citizens being infected every day. We know how they are doing it, but many of us Americans don’t seem to have what it takes to do it, and that’s why we are losing while others win.
A blatantly false narrative. The data says something completely different. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

BTW the graph for hospitalizations looks the same.

It’s a shame that you call Americans who have lost their jobs, their savings, and businesses that they worked a lifetime to build “pathetic, whiney weaklings”. Truly shameful.

#### Tyeeking

##### Well-Known Member
My wife is in retail pharmacy and I can echo everything that was stated. The working conditions really are appalling.
.

That’s horrible. I had no idea. It would seem like work conditions like that would create an environment for some pretty bad errors to occur.

#### CalebJ

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
That is a significant concern. One of the reasons she begged her way out of the pharmacy manager role. She lived in dread of being responsible for a major mistake with too much going on for her to accurately monitor it all.

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