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kuririn

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Funny, "bizarre pseudo scientific editorial" cited NIH.
Vet your sources before citing them to make your case.
Rancourt is not a medical doctor, he is a physics professor.
He was dismissed from his position at the Univ. of Ottawa for unethical practices.
He has disputed prevailing views of climate changes on his blog.
SOTT bills itself as a leading alternative news site.........
Translation: fringe, outlier pseudo science and conspiracy theory website.
Here's an excerpt from mediabiasfactcheck.com:
Factual Reporting: MIXED

Notes: Signs of the Times is a news and opinion website that tends to focus on conspiracy theories and pseudoscience. They have quite a bit of legitimate news, but some of the outrageous stories overshadow it. (D. Van Zandt 1/31/2017)

Source: https://www.sott.net/
 

AdAstraPerAspera

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Science costs money. No, I haven't read the whole thing. But I stumbled on it and remembered that you asked for something similar.

Headaches can be a sign of oxygen depravation. Anyone who has had to be trained for confined space work knows that.

The study I was referencing above I didn't bookmark, maybe I'll find it later. It was a couple links down from an article that I did manage to find again, but an intermediate link is now broken. They weren't when I first read it. It may have been pay walled also, but it had a summary. If that's not going to be good enough, I won't waste any more of my valuable time looking.
 

boatgeek

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Science costs money. No, I haven't read the whole thing. But I stumbled on it and remembered that you asked for something similar.

Headaches can be a sign of oxygen depravation. Anyone who has had to be trained for confined space work knows that.

The study I was referencing above I didn't bookmark, maybe I'll find it later. It was a couple links down from an article that I did manage to find again, but an intermediate link is now broken. They weren't when I first read it. It may have been pay walled also, but it had a summary. If that's not going to be good enough, I won't waste any more of my valuable time looking.
I don't dispute that science costs money. If you're into science, then you're naturally willing to spend the money to do it right, correct? On the other hand, I don't see why I should have to spend my money to follow up on your claims.

Headaches are also a common symptom of dehydration. Since mask wearers are also likely to drink less often, that's another completely reasonable explanation unrelated to oxygen deprivation. It's also one that's relatively easily fixed either on noticing a headache or by making an effort to drink more water.

For both headaches and reduction in blood oxygen, the scale is important. A 5-10% increase in headaches is relatively minor, as is a precent reduction in blood oxygen levels. A 70% increase in headaches would be something else, as would a 10% reduction in blood oxygen levels. If the summary publicly available doesn't say how much change there is in those things, then yeah, I want to see that number. Since you're making the claim that masks are harmful, I'd think you would too.
 

prfesser

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From one of the numerous links you couldn't be bothered to read, study shows headaches for starters...
Funny, "bizarre pseudo scientific editorial" cited NIH.
The referenced SOTT article listed several articles comparing N95 masks to surgical masks, not masks vs. nothing. Inclusion of irrelevant citations may be okay in a high school term paper but it is not acceptable in a peer-reviewed publication.

And in the NIH article, the sample size was not large enough to draw any conclusions; one person in the control group and one in the experimental group got colds. It's a common problem in medical studies. The number of participants and the number of results has to be large enough for proper statistical analysis. With one result in each group, we can conclude...nothing, other than larger studies are needed.

Best -- Terry
 

CalebJ

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It's telling that more than two days after the claim that studies have shown the dangers of mask wearing, the only validation is a questionable link indicating they -might- cause a headache.
 

Bill S

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I found this study that showed an increase in Co2 levels, which stopped somewhat short of the official definition of hypercapnia. They did mention symptoms that I and my wife have noticed in our mask wearing (I may wear for an hour while I shop, but she has to wear one for an 11 hour shift, which seems to be causing her to develop asthma), such as difficulty breathing, overheating, headaches, and lightheadedness. Maybe not definitive, but food for thought nonetheless.

An excerpt:
quote
Discussion
From a physiologic standpoint, the nurses participating in this study tolerated long-term use of respiratory protection well, regardless of whether they wore an N95 alone or with a surgical mask overlay. The only negative physiologic change resulting from long-term respiratory protection use was elevated CO2 levels, with CO2 increasing over time when wearing an N95 alone, and increasing even more significantly, from a statistical standpoint, when wearing an N95 and mask compared with when they only wore an N95. However, although there were statistically significant negative physiologic changes over time associated with wearing respiratory protection (especially among those wearing an N95 with a mask overlay), these changes were not clinically relevant. For instance, the statistically significant rise in CO2 levels over time from baseline to the end of the shift did not result in CO2 levels that reached the clinical definition of hypercapnia (defined as an arterial CO2 level ≥ 45). Therefore, from a physiologic perspective, long-term use of respiratory protection proved to not cause negative effects for the nurses in this study.

An interesting finding from this study is that, although the nurses did not experience any clinically significant negative physiologic effects from wearing respiratory protection, they reported many subjective symptoms. For example, perceived shortness of breath increased over time when nurses wore any type of respiratory protection. Although physiologic measures of heart rate, O2, and CO2 did not reflect a difficulty with gas exchange, nurses reported feeling more short of breath the longer they wore respiratory protection. Other subjective symptoms also increased over time, including complaints of headache, lightheadedness, perceived exertion, and impeded communication. When wearing an N95 with mask overlay, nurses reported feeling more nausea and had more visual challenges than when they wore only an N95. Although these symptoms do not represent life-threatening conditions, they are unpleasant and may affect health care personnel’s willingness or ability to tolerate long-term N95 usage that would be necessary during a disaster.

unquote
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...re workers during routine patient care duties.
 

AdAstraPerAspera

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I found this study that showed an increase in Co2 levels, which stopped somewhat short of the official definition of hypercapnia. They did mention symptoms that I and my wife have noticed in our mask wearing (I may wear for an hour while I shop, but she has to wear one for an 11 hour shift, which seems to be causing her to develop asthma), such as difficulty breathing, overheating, headaches, and lightheadedness. Maybe not definitive, but food for thought nonetheless.

An excerpt:
quote
Discussion
From a physiologic standpoint, the nurses participating in this study tolerated long-term use of respiratory protection well, regardless of whether they wore an N95 alone or with a surgical mask overlay. The only negative physiologic change resulting from long-term respiratory protection use was elevated CO2 levels, with CO2 increasing over time when wearing an N95 alone, and increasing even more significantly, from a statistical standpoint, when wearing an N95 and mask compared with when they only wore an N95. However, although there were statistically significant negative physiologic changes over time associated with wearing respiratory protection (especially among those wearing an N95 with a mask overlay), these changes were not clinically relevant. For instance, the statistically significant rise in CO2 levels over time from baseline to the end of the shift did not result in CO2 levels that reached the clinical definition of hypercapnia (defined as an arterial CO2 level ≥ 45). Therefore, from a physiologic perspective, long-term use of respiratory protection proved to not cause negative effects for the nurses in this study.

An interesting finding from this study is that, although the nurses did not experience any clinically significant negative physiologic effects from wearing respiratory protection, they reported many subjective symptoms. For example, perceived shortness of breath increased over time when nurses wore any type of respiratory protection. Although physiologic measures of heart rate, O2, and CO2 did not reflect a difficulty with gas exchange, nurses reported feeling more short of breath the longer they wore respiratory protection. Other subjective symptoms also increased over time, including complaints of headache, lightheadedness, perceived exertion, and impeded communication. When wearing an N95 with mask overlay, nurses reported feeling more nausea and had more visual challenges than when they wore only an N95. Although these symptoms do not represent life-threatening conditions, they are unpleasant and may affect health care personnel’s willingness or ability to tolerate long-term N95 usage that would be necessary during a disaster.

unquote
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0196655313005920#:~:text=The purpose of this study was to determine,health care workers during routine patient care duties.
Thanks for finding this. It might not be the same one I was looking for, but still very much appreciated.
 

afadeev

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I found this study that showed an increase in Co2 levels[...]
Guys, I appreciate that you are trying to find data to justify your conclusions, but for the love of God, please first skim the studies you quote!

Bill, you would not even need to read far, as your article opens with "Methods - Ten nurses participated"
10 is way below statistically valid sample size for any scientific study, as was already covered in post #305.

But it gets weirder still. They compared (with no statistical validity) effects of wearing N95 plus a surgical mask on top of N95 vs. just N95 mask by itself. Who wears two (2) masks, one on top of the other? Why would you even construct an experiment like that? The findings are guaranteed to be of no practical value to anyone.

But wait, it only gets better. The study uncovered that during a 12 hour work shift, wears of masks reported "Perceived exertion; perceived shortness of air; and complaints of headache, lightheadedness, and difficulty communicating also increased over time."
Surprising discovery - people get progressively tired throughout a 12-hour shift, and report symptoms of fatigue?
You don't say...

Sorry, <AdAstraPerAspera>, others beat me to commenting on your conspiracy theory web site's links.

Seriously, now, I would love to hear of any legitimate studies that quantify any detrimental health effects from wearing masks.
I bet all medical professionals in the world would want to learn about one as well, since they are the ones who are directly impacted by routine mask wearing.
Something tells me they would have uncovered any such evidence long ago, if it existed.
But maybe they all missed it, so I'm all ears.

 

NateB

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They compared (with no statistical validity) effects of wearing N95 plus a surgical mask on top of N95 vs. just N95 mask by itself. Who wears two (2) masks, one on top of the other? Why would you even construct an experiment like that? The findings are guaranteed to be of no practical value to anyone.
Back in March/April as Covid cases grew significantly, hospitals began to run out of PPE for employees. We were (and still are) using disposable N95 masks as long as we could. Many people were placing a surgical mask or fabric mask over their N95 to extend its life by providing another layer against blood and sputum splatters which would prevent you from reusing the single use N95. The study was probably done in response to that practice.
The study uncovered that during a 12 hour work shift, wears of masks reported "Perceived exertion; perceived shortness of air; and complaints of headache, lightheadedness, and difficulty communicating also increased over time."
Surprising discovery - people get tired throughout a 12-hour shift, and report symptoms of fatigue?
You don't say...
Yep, 12+ hour shifts get exhausting. Adding more PPE on top of a long shifts adds to the exhaustion. I'm getting more used to it, but it still adds up, especially when working in 90-100 degree environments with a Nomex suit on. Even though clinical findings were inconclusive, perceived issues still effect patient care.

Communication is a real problem. Again, we are learning to deal with it and adapting, but the masks still impede communication. I find myself having to shout more. Sometimes it feels like I am yelling at other caregivers when we are working together, but I'm just trying to be heard.
 

boatgeek

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...

But it gets weirder still. They compared (with no statistical validity) effects of wearing N95 plus a surgical mask on top of N95 vs. just N95 mask by itself. Who wears two (2) masks, one on top of the other? Why would you even construct an experiment like that? The findings are guaranteed to be of no practical value to anyone.

...
That actually kind of makes sense. One approach to preserving N95s was to wear the N95 below another mask so the N95 didn't get dirty. [edit] Nate beat me to it. [/edit]

Piling on to the rest of our excellent rant, the study specifically points out that they noticed some increase in CO2 levels, but the third sentence says that increase was "not clinically relevant." Sooo, there was a measurable effect, but it didn't matter in the grander scheme of things.
 

afadeev

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This one is priceless - the woman clearly has "principles", and is willing to "sit down" for them.
What those are, and where she got them from, is anyone's guess, since thieving is part of her "value" system:

 

ThirstyBarbarian

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This one is priceless - the woman clearly has "principles", and is willing to "sit down" for them.
What those are, and where she got them from, is anyone's guess, since thieving is part of her "value" system:

It sounds like she was pissed. But fortunately, not pissed enough to actually give a crap.
 

BABAR

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This one is priceless - the woman clearly has "principles", and is willing to "sit down" for them.
What those are, and where she got them from, is anyone's guess, since thieving is part of her "value" system:

In the article

“Police, who confirmed the incident to CBS Sacramento, said they arrested the woman after discovering her vehicle contained stolen merchandise from a nearby Dick's Sporting Goods. ”

Ya know, if I had stolen goods in my vehicle I PROBably would not try drawing attention to myself.

Somebody needs to put the toys back in the attic.
 

jrap330

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I'll be the devil's advocate here, so here are reasons why someone might improperly wear a mask:
  1. to breath better when walking (or running or cycling)) down a sidewalk on a warm day
  2. to make sure others understand spoken words because understanding someone talk through a mask can be difficult
  3. wearing a mask on a chin is still better than none at all, because at least it's available if someone insists, and it keeps people "in the mood"
  4. when more than 6 feet away or separated by plexiglas (i.e. at a cashier), a mask isn't adding much anyway
I consider my mask as a ventilation system with an adjustable flow rate.
Also, working in a mask is HARD. After 10-15 minutes in a store, I need to pull it down for second to breath, not to mentions my glasses fog up. So imagine working an 8 hour shrift in one. So give them a break especially since a small portion of USA population believes it is a either a political point or (sorry) infringes on their freedom. So hats off to surgeons and Dentist, Dental Hygienist who have been wearing masks for almost 5-10 years now.
 

afadeev

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give them a break especially since a small portion of USA population believes it is a either a political point or (sorry) infringes on their freedom.
I've heard a lot of discombobulated claims against masks, so found it refreshing to read this women's honest position in her lawsuit against her town:
“health of others is not my responsibility”

One may, or may not, agree with her position, but I do find it refreshingly honest:
 

JLP1

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I find this whole mask thing to be a real contradiction in common sense. I have worked in the chemical/oil industry for over 35 years. There we had to wear full PPE with mask, suits, hard hats, boots, etc. for 8 hour, 10 hour, 12 hour and longer shifts for weeks or months on end during shut downs and maintenance work in some of the most trying conditions. Exposure to chemicals, asbestos, heat, cold, rain, high humidity, and all kinds of other crud. And you know what there were no studies, papers, no long articles about worker safety. Instead there is OSHA, Chemical Safety Board, Unions, Companies, and all other types of experts telling you to wear your PPE it will save your life. Now I'm not taking anything away from our medical heroes they are doing a fantastic job against unbelievable odds. But most of their work is done in air conditioned, clean controlled environments that does provides a better situation than working in a reactor vessel for 12 hours where the temp is 90 plus degrees and the humidity approaching 90 percent. Now like I said I don't take anything away from the medical workers they are true heroes but think about the painters, insulators, chemical, nuclear, oil workers, firefighters, hazmat, and all of the other jobs that require tons of PPE. More work is needed to provide better PPE, better work schedules, more breaks, better understanding of how we work.

Just my 2 cents worth.....
 

NateB

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I wear a nomex flight suit with long pants and long sleeves, helmet with shield, NVGs duing night shifts, plus an N-95 or P-100 respirator now. The helicopter has AC, but it just takes the edge off the heat. Cabin temps are often in the 90s during this time of year. We often work outside as well. The stresses of flight and our environment are well studied with some guidelines offered by CAMTS (air medical industry group) Doing CPR for extended times with all this PPE on is a bit much, a "typical" call is rough enough, but hydration, cooling towels, and resting during downtime works. We also have the ability to stand down and rest if the heat becomes an issue where we can't function safely.

I have also seen studies done on firefighters, mostly focusing on the cardiac effects of the PPE and environment. I know my HR has been at the upper end if the target heart range while working on an interior attack.

One habit I got into at the fire department was keeping a bottle of water by my seat in the truck and drinking it on the way to a call. With full turnout gear and an SCBA on, it is easy to get dehydrated before you even get in the fire.
 

JLP1

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I hear you Nate I spent 23 years as a volunteer firefighter here in Texas, when at 57 I went in for my annual physical and the doc said "You've got to stop going into those burning buildings" and it was taking longer and longer to bounce back after each fire I retired. Didn't want too but you have to realize there comes a time when you become a liability instead of and asset.

Good to see you over here too I've seen you over on FW small world 👍
 

Greg Furtman

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Was corresponding with someone on social media who was going on about the "dangers of wearing masks" and I decided to agree with him as follows:

Brilliant! You are right. All those people packing the hospital ICUs must actually be suffering from mask-induced illnesses, not COVID-19.

Response: silence
ScreenShot290.jpg
 

jrap330

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An interesting aspect of the mask whining (and a distinction from seatbelt wearing) is that you primarily wear a mask to protect others. We all wear masks to protect everyone. So it gives a bit of insight into the thought process and priorities of those who refuse to wear one.

Ok I'll be that guy: half the world is below median intelligence. ;)
Half....you are one generous fellow
 

58pan

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Reporter: Which do you think is a bigger problem in American society, Ignorance or Apathy?

Citizen: I don‘t know and I don’t care!
Or the ones that say, "That's infringing on my Rights!"
Yes we have rights, with those Rights come Responsibility's.
It is just basic Citizenship. Doing your part for the common good of all.
 

kuririn

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Interesting note in the news today. Apparently Disney is not accepting the kind of masks that have exhaust ports anymore.
Makes sense. Exhaust valves allow minimally obstructed expirate.
More comfortable for the wearer but defeats the purpose of the mask if you are an asymptomatic carrier.
 

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