Malamute / Terrier-Malamute Scale Data . . .
Dave F.
Dave F.
MALAMUTE / TERRIER-MALAMUTE Scale Data . . .
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Dave F.
Dave F.
Charles_McG
Ciderwright
Thanks Dave. The Development paper is just the thing - and it wasn't in your dropbox when I snagged the rest of the Terrier info.
I plan on using the Big Daddy / Leviathan ogive nosecone - but I like the red body of the Improved T-M. So I'll probably bash it up, rather than doing a strict Astro-Met flight clone.
I like the looks of that fat bodied payload, though. I might end up making two payloads. Might have to print me up a 3" conical nosecone.
I also like the finlet described in the development paper. Easy to print right in. Tempting, except I don't want it to spin.
I plan on using the Big Daddy / Leviathan ogive nosecone - but I like the red body of the Improved T-M. So I'll probably bash it up, rather than doing a strict Astro-Met flight clone.
I like the looks of that fat bodied payload, though. I might end up making two payloads. Might have to print me up a 3" conical nosecone.
I also like the finlet described in the development paper. Easy to print right in. Tempting, except I don't want it to spin.
Charles_McG
Ciderwright
I’m chuffed with the development paper.
I had purchased the RoTW supplement from the NAR, but the dev paper has a lot more fin detail- and its a moderately complex shape.
I had purchased the RoTW supplement from the NAR, but the dev paper has a lot more fin detail- and its a moderately complex shape.
Charles,
I'm glad it was helpful to you.
Dave F.
I'm glad it was helpful to you.
Dave F.
Charles_McG
Ciderwright
- Joined
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Alaskan Malamute, American Staffordshire Terrier
May not be fast off the rail, but scale is right.
Nytrunner
Pop lugs, not drugs
Man that Terrier booster is something. Just imagine one of those streaking across the skies of New Mexico
Just need a big enough motor in the back
Just need a big enough motor in the back
Charles_McG
Ciderwright
OK - I was going to post this on YORF - but I'm starting here, since YORF looks like it's hit its morning blackout period.
<ctrl c> <ctrl v>
I've been thinking of doing a Terrier Malemute for my next sounding rocket. Partly because the Malemute, with the 3:1 ogive nosecone reminds me of a PSII Leviathan (which I have parts for) and partly because I want to name it 'Double Dog Dare'.
Massless Dave (particles with rest mass can't go the speed of light, so EZ2C becomes massless)
has posted lots of great Terrier material, both here and on the Forum That Shall Not Be Named. I think YORF has more scale people, so I'm forking the Ute thread so MarkB can get back to posting Tomahawk variant pictures. Which I'm looking forward to.
I've spent some time holding a micrometer against the computer screen and taking measurements.
Here's the problem I've run into. Terriers, like Nikes, have flown with a number of fins. And it looks like even with Nike fins sometimes.
Peter Always drawing of the Terrier Malemute show it in a configuration that seems to appear just once - the first flight. He shows the 3:1 ogive (when seems to get some use, based on other photos). A payload section about 2.5 calipers (ok - "calibers" I was corrected
) long - which is the shortest pictured. Other Terrier Malemute and Terrier Improved Malemute (motor 2" longer and improved attachment to the interstage) show payloads 6-8 calibers long. No biggee if I want to model model more than one - just more body tube.Peter's drawing shows the double wedge profile with a root : tip cord ratio of 3.8, a span of 22.1 inches and a root chord of 24.5 inches. That's clearly the same fins on the RIM-2F and he has the same measurements in the Homing Terrier Refit RIM-2F drawing.
Dave has posted another Terrier fin drawing with a diamond profile, root:tip ratio of 2.5, root chord of 33.5", span of ??? inches. With matching photos. I believe it to be the RIM-2C/BT-3 version.
Going through photos of the Terrier Malemute, I'm measuring root:tip ratios of 2.13. multiple photos with different payloads. And a root:span ratio of 1.2 - measurably different than the 1.1 of the 2F, or the ??? of the 2C.
(YORF locked up before I could go back and get the 2 measurements in ???)
So what the heck fin is it? And how's a modeler to choose?
And thank you for the photos, Dave. Even of I end up redoing my CAD model before I print it, the photos have some nice bolt niche and panel details that the drawings don't.
(also @PeterAlway - thanks for many fine drawings)
Edit: The Malemute development paper shows the short payload and the Terrier 'F' style fins. It's from the Astro-Met division, like in the photo above, which clearly has fins with a larger tip chord.
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Nytrunner
Pop lugs, not drugs
6-8 'Calipers' long?
Is this like the standard 6" calipers or the big honking 18" ones
In serious: This is the problem with "scale" building. Not every scientific (or even military) configuration was the same, was documented properly, or considered worthy of noting down for later. They built what they needed for the mission at hand
Is this like the standard 6" calipers or the big honking 18" ones
In serious: This is the problem with "scale" building. Not every scientific (or even military) configuration was the same, was documented properly, or considered worthy of noting down for later. They built what they needed for the mission at hand
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I was lucky & got to take 5 students from the College I worked at to RockOn 2018 at Wallops Flight Facilty. We built an instrument package that was launched into space on a Terrier-Orion. It was a great opportunity for my students & I got to cross something off my bucket list that I didn't even know was on there. Here a link to RockOn 2017.
It's pretty cool that I can honestly say I built something that went into space. The Orion booster burned for 5 seconds & broke the sound barrier at 3 seconds. FAST!!!
Here a link to RockOn 2017. It's pretty cool that I can honestly say I built something that went into space. The Orion booster burned for 5 seconds & broke the sound barrier at 3 seconds. FAST!!!
Charles_McG
Ciderwright
Isn't stability usually expressed in 'calipers'?
Running through the RoTW supplements, that root:tip ratio shows up on the Nike Orion. So maybe they used 4 of those fins.
Nytrunner
Pop lugs, not drugs
Is this a joke? I can't tell
Charles_McG
Ciderwright
Very nifty - and it was definitely diamond profile fins.
Charles_McG
Ciderwright
I don't mean it to be. OpenRocket just lists 'cal'..if it's 'ibers' instead of 'ipers', then I'll chalk it up to lack of morning coffee and move on
Charles_McG
Ciderwright
<sigh>
Let's just pretend I'm of Irish/Welsh descent (not far off the mark anyway) and can't tell 'p's from 'b's (or 'v's for that matter) when spelling.
I'd go edit and fix them - but it will be funnier to leave it.
Let's just pretend I'm of Irish/Welsh descent (not far off the mark anyway) and can't tell 'p's from 'b's (or 'v's for that matter) when spelling.
I'd go edit and fix them - but it will be funnier to leave it.
Charles,
At the expense of the "expense", I'll tackle this . . . LOL !
Stability is expressed in "C-A-L-I-B-E-R-S" . . . "C-A-L-I-P-E-R-S" come in handy on automobile brakes. ( Alternatively, as a measuring device )
Old "Forkers" like us gotta stick together . . . At least you didn't say Launch "Pud", instead of Launch "Pad" - LOL !
Dave F.
Charles_McG
Ciderwright
If I hang the 37.9” Nike Orion booster fins on the BT-3 attachment point, I get the same small aft overhang seen in the Terrier Orion in the video above and in the Terrier Improved Malemute photos above (but not in the Astro-Met photo)
OK - I was going to post this on YORF - but I'm starting here, since YORF looks like it's hit its morning blackout period.
<ctrl c> <ctrl v>
I've been thinking of doing a Terrier Malemute for my next sounding rocket. Partly because the Malemute, with the 3:1 ogive nosecone reminds me of a PSII Leviathan (which I have parts for) and partly because I want to name it 'Double Dog Dare'.
Massless Dave (particles with rest mass can't go the speed of light, so EZ2C becomes massless)
has posted lots of great Terrier material, both here and on the Forum That Shall Not Be Named. I think YORF has more scale people, so I'm forking the Ute thread so MarkB can get back to posting Tomahawk variant pictures. Which I'm looking forward to.
I've spend some time holding a micrometer against the computer screen and taking measurements.
Here's the problem I've run into. Terriers, like Nikes, have flown with a number of fins. And it looks like even with Nike fins sometimes.
Peter Always drawing of the Terrier Malemute show it in a configuration that seems to appear just once - the first flight. He shows the 3:1 ogive (when seems to get some use, based on other photos). A payload section about 2.5 calipers (ok - "calibers" I was corrected
Peter's drawing shows the double wedge profile with a root : tip cord ratio of 3.8, a span of 22.1 inches and a root chord of 24.5 inches. That's clearly the same fins on the RIM-2F and he has the same measurements in the Homing Terrier Refit RIM-2F drawing.
Dave has posted another Terrier fin drawing with a diamond profile, root:tip ratio of 2.5, root chord of 33.5", span of ??? inches. With matching photos. I believe it to be the RIM-2C/BT-3 version.
Going through photos of the Terrier Malemute, I'm measuring root:tip ratios of 2.13. multiple photos with different payloads. And a root:span ratio of 1.2 - measurably different than the 1.1 of the 2F, or the ??? of the 2C.
(YORF locked up before I could go back and get the 2 measurements in ???)
So what the heck fin is it? And how's a modeler to choose?
And thank you for the photos, Dave. Even of I end up redoing my CAD model before I print it, the photos have some nice bolt niche and panel details that the drawings don't.
(also @PeterAlway - thanks for many fine drawings)
Edit: The Malemute development paper shows the short payload and the Terrier 'F' style fins. It's from the Astro-Met division, like in the photo above, which clearly has fins with a larger tip chord.
Here is some NIKE-AJAX data : Nothing "spectacular", unfortunately.
Dave F.
Charles_McG
Ciderwright
Since YORF is down, could you please post that PDF of 'standard Nike Fins' here?
Charles_McG
Ciderwright
Never mind - YORF is back up. It's none of the fins in that manual.
PeterAlway
Well-Known Member
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I don't have my source material handy (It's not in digital format, or at least it's not on my flash drive). But it doesn't surpise me that my drawing is a configuration unique to one rocket. These things are changing all the time. With the exception of some older sounding rockets from the 40's 50's, 60's and 70's, and the Black Brant series, the only thing that defines a sounding rocket type is the motor or motors. Adapters, fin cans, and even the number of fins changes. And the payloads themselves change dramatically from flight to flight. The process of putting a drawing like mine together involves finding a specific flight drawing, usually from a Wallops flight document of some sort--usually one that outlines the flight schedule and preflight needs, and includes a station number drawing (I think some of these might have titles like "Flight Requirements Plan for NASA Flight 29.002 GT," but without the complete document, I can't tell you what the actual title was). Then I need to find a matching photograph--when I'm lucky they come together from someone's collection. The final thin I need are adapter and fin diagrams, which I compare to the photos to find the right ones. Not having everything in front of me, I assume that studying the photos revealed that the fin was the original Terrier fin, and Buzz Nau had sent me some great terrier drawings I could use as a source for that.
And once one rocket of a type is drawn, it doesn't necessarily help with another round. I'm noticing that one of the color photos here shows a rocket with standard Nike sounding rocket fins. Another round here seems to have clipped Nike Ajax missile fins.
It's hard to figure.
The awful truth is that the sort of photo dump that you see here in scale data threads is really not useful in itself for making an accurate model, unless you are happy making a squishy sport scale model based on photos only.
And once one rocket of a type is drawn, it doesn't necessarily help with another round. I'm noticing that one of the color photos here shows a rocket with standard Nike sounding rocket fins. Another round here seems to have clipped Nike Ajax missile fins.
It's hard to figure.
The awful truth is that the sort of photo dump that you see here in scale data threads is really not useful in itself for making an accurate model, unless you are happy making a squishy sport scale model based on photos only.
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Charles_McG
Ciderwright
The awful truth is that I'm pretty happy making squishy sport scale models
Well - kinda squishy. I'm not competing - so I like to get close, but don't necessarily worry about precision.
I did figure out that the version on your 2001 supplement wouldn't leave me enough room in the Malemute above the obvious place to put an avbay (based on available tubing lengths) to have a chute compartment, so I'm already looking at a longer payload. I might print myself a nice 3" conical nosecone, too.
