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Discussion in 'Low Power Rocketry (LPR)' started by SFenix, Oct 8, 2003.

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  1. Oct 8, 2003 #1

    SFenix

    SFenix

    SFenix

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    'Lo. This is the AA meeting right? I've been launching rockets on and off since I was about 8 (16 now), haven't launched one in at least 2 years though, and sadly, dont remember much, or where all my old kits are. :(

    Anyhow, I just recently moved to Edmond, OK, and my HS has a JROTC unit, so I decided to hit up the Model Rocketry Club. w00t!:) Right after the meeting I headed out to the local Hobby Lobby, and bought 3 trusty Estes kits, glue, and a hobby knife. I ended up getting the Mk-109 Stingray and Banshee E2X kits and the Baby Bertha, Level One.

    Obviously the E2X's went together pretty well, cant really mess up a plastic model like that. The Baby Bertha on the other hand is causing me some real trouble, er, was causing me some real trouble. Using white glue, I couldn't get the fins to stay lined up, not to mention the tube marking guide was about 5mm to short, so I had to estimate. Next time I'll probably fix the tube marking guide by using a protracter or something, all in all, it's not to bad.

    The fins had me dumb-founded, previous rockets like the Mosquito, FatBoy, Alpha (old school stuff, etc.) had never given me this much trouble, if I remember correctly. I figure the best way to do this in the future is apply a small amount of Super-Glue, lining up the fins, and then just make really strong fillets? By the time I got back to the store, I had finally got the fins good to go, so I couldn't test the theory.

    I have yet to do attach the shock cord or any of the recovery devices on the Baby Bertha or Banshee. After doing a bit of reading Rocketreviews and here, I've come up with this plan, and was hoping if you guys could offer suggestions and whatnot.

    I'd like to have basically an interchangeable recovery system, but instead of using "costly", "heavy", and "bulky" swivel mounts, use Lanyard Hooks instead. For the Baby Bertha, I planned to use the standard tri-fold shockcord mount, but use a small loop of kevlar, which one of the hooks would connect to. The loop of kevlar would reach no further than maybe an 1.5in from the top of the tube?

    From there I'd have multiple shock cord and hook set ups, maybe from 2ft to 3ft? On the nose cone would be another kevlar cord loop, that would hold the other end of the shock cord setups, and the parachute.

    I also thought I'd have multiple parachutes, also using the "clip and straw" method. What are some good parachutes you guys might recommend, as I assume plastic will only last for so long. I dont plan on launching any rockets that are really big, so I'm hoping I can get by buying maybe one "medium" sized chute and one/two "small" sized ones. Would 12in diameter = small and 18in diameter = medium? 24in?

    Lastly, recovery wadding. I've seen quite a few different options it looks like. Standard recovery wadding, heatshields, fiberglass repair cloth, baffler system, and cellulose wall insulation (bales/bricks, etc.)

    I'm thinking of throwing out option #1, recovery wadding, because it could just prove to be too costly for a kid who doesn't have much money. Then again, engines are a bit, but JROTC helps out there... they do to with wadding, but I've also heard it's unreliable?

    Option #2 is heatshields from Pratt Hobbies. Would this be a good route? I could just slide them on the shock cord setups and go from there? Maybe even buy the kevlar sheaths for the elastic shock cords? On the EMRR tips/hints someone mentione fiberglass repair cloth can do the exact same job for a bit cheaper. Then again, the heatshields really aren't that expensive for resuable wadding... it'd also be professionally made...

    The Baffler system also has to be thrown out because it's more of a rocket specific system, can't really be interchanged, which is my goal. I plan to make "a bunch" of kits/scratches.. But, just so I understand, when the "ejection" charge is activated, not only are hot gases expelled, but chucks of hot clay are too? The Baffler system is there to allow the gases, but not the clay right?

    Lastly, the cellulose. While not reuseable, it's supposed to be cheap and effective, if packed "fluffily"? Can you shed more light on this?

    Ooo, one more thing, what is zippering? Is that when a kevlar (or similar) cord rips into the body, damaging it? I've searched through the recovery forum and stuff, but there's a bit of conflicting information, so hopefully some of it can maybe be cleared up in simple-person's terms? :D

    Sorry about being so wordy and lengthy (promise it wont happen again!!), I think those are all my questions for now at least, thanks for listening and responding ;)
     
  2. Oct 8, 2003 #2

    lamart72

    lamart72

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    Feel free to ask all the questions you want! You will surely find all the answers here! Don't forget to post pictures if you can.
     
  3. Oct 8, 2003 #3

    lamart72

    lamart72

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    About the glue:

    I use Elmers Carpenter's Wood Glue in the pale yellow bottle. It's great for small rockets. Coat the fin with a thin layer of glue, lay it down on the body tube then immediately pull it off straight away from the tube. Let it dry for about 2-3 minutes. Then spread a small amount on the fin again and press into place. I have used this technique with great success for many years. Super Glue is good, but you need to be very careful using it!
     
  4. Oct 8, 2003 #4

    sandman

    sandman

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    I've said this before but I'll repeat myself.

    I use Elmer's EXCLUSIVELY!

    1) Mark the fin lines with a pencil get the length exact too!

    2) Use a push pin (like for a bulletin board) and punch a row of holes along the pencil line...all the way through the body. This will make "glue rivets" that go all the way through the body tube wall.

    3) Sand along the pencil line to remove the "shine" on the tube. This give the glue a better "bite".

    3) After the fins are sanded and ready to attach put a line of glue (heavy) on the fin and press it into place...then remove and set aside. Do the same for all the fins.

    4) Take a toothpick and force some of the extra glue into the pin holes to form the rivets. Then spread it evenly along the rivet holes.

    5) After about 15 or 20 minutes there should be just a little of the white Elmer's showing. The rest will have soaked into the balsa or the tube and dried.

    6) Apply a thin...not too heavy line of fresh Elmer's onto the fin and spread it evenly with the toothpick.

    7) Stick the fins on (one at a time) and hold for about a minute each...It's stuck!

    Takes about an hour total.

    No super glue, no Epoxy, no toxic stuff, just Elmer's.

    sandman
     
  5. Oct 8, 2003 #5

    jflis

    jflis

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    You got the zippering definition right.

    As for those lanyard hooks, they have one problem that the snap swivels solve, and that is spinning rockets under the chute. snap swivels will help prevent tangled or twisted up shroud lines whereas the lanyard will not.

    it's a game of tradeoffs

    welcome to TRF, by the way :)
     
  6. Oct 8, 2003 #6

    rocket trike

    rocket trike

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    Welcome aboard. If you are looking for good parachutes Mylar is your bet. They last for quite a few launches. They do melt like plastic. Give these a try.
     
  7. Oct 8, 2003 #7

    wscarvie

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    First off, welcome to the Forum. I'm sure you'll find that we're happy to help.

    I'd advocate for snap swivels over lanyard hooks. You can buy a bulk pack of about fifty #2 snap swivels in places like K-Mart or anywhere with a fishing section to their sporting goods department, for less than $5. I think I paid $3 about two weeks ago. The swivel action really does make a big difference in keeping your chute shroud lines from tangling.

    Otherwise I think you've got a nice system designed for interchanging recovery systems.

    I've been very happy with both Fliskits and Estes plastic parachutes, by the way. If you protect them from ejection gasses and keep them powdered with baby powder, they'll last a long time. Test the shroud line's attachment to the chute every so often, and reinforce any weak points with tape or, if you're in a slightly more spendy mood, bits of clear laminating sheet (see an office supply store). The adhesive on those sheets is quite strong.

    I use "dog barf" shredded cellulose wadding myself. Break it into small bits with your fingers, then loosely fill the body tube to about three tube diameters in depth. Don't pack it in, as this stuff compresses nicely. I've lost an engine mount with retainer hook entirely due to too-compressed wadding, and kicked many an engine in "friction fit" engine mounts. Result: lawn dart or core sample "recoveries." It isn't pretty :)

    Also, this wadding is dirt cheap. A brick of this stuff usually runs about $7 at a building supply store (e.g. Home Depot, Dixieline) and will last you a LONG, LONG time. Years. Heck, it'll last your whole club years.

    Hope this helps. Good luck, and do keep us posted.
     
  8. Oct 8, 2003 #8

    Stymye

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    welcome to the forum SFenix.!
    lots of great questions!

    ..don't worry too much about all the details right now .
    the rockets you have ,will fly and recover well
    built straight out of the box

    go ahead and use the supplied plastic chutes .and use white,yellow, super glue..or any combination of the three
    fly them a few times .than worry about swivels ,lanyards ect..

    if you decide to use the lanyard .atleast put some tape around it so it wont pull apart when the chute pops out .

    keep an eye on the supplied shock cord (after every launch!!) .thats the first thing you will want to replace.get a few launches in... than come back and let us know how it went ...no need to get all complicated right away.

    now...go launch some rockets and have fun !!!
     
  9. Oct 8, 2003 #9

    swimmer

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    SFenix,

    Welcome to the Forum. Let me invite you to a launch this weekend with us Kansas folks. We fly in Argonia Ks. not too far north of Edmond. Commercial flights are on Sunday this month from 9:00am to 6:00pm. You can get more info off the website
    www.KloudBusters.org
     
  10. Oct 8, 2003 #10

    PGerringer

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    Let me echo everyone - Welcome to the Forum!!!

    I don't know if I would call it a brick. It is more like the size of a bail (sp) of hay. And Will is right, best $7 I spent was on the cellulose stuff. I will never need wadding again. You can find it at your nearest home improvement type store. It is basically attic blown insulation.
     
  11. Oct 8, 2003 #11

    n3tjm

    n3tjm

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    Welcome to the forum! Yeah... ths is the AA of rocketry (or would that be RA? (Pernounced ARE-AYE))... wait a second... AA is suposed to cure you from the addiction! We DON'T want that to happen... (Jim would loose customers that way ;)). I have been building and flying these model rockets since 1986 (Age 7), now I am 24, and have my L2 :)...

    Let me guess... you can't wait till your 18 :)... You can go for your L1 :).... I got mine when I was 20... Where I lived when I was 18 did not have any places to fly H or I motors... but now that I live here, have my own car, I can go to any launch I please... like LDRS in Buffalo NY next year :D.

    Take care bro. Welcome to the forum :)
     
  12. Oct 8, 2003 #12

    sandman

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    Honestly you High Power guys are like dope dealers...always trying to get somebody else "hooked".

    The poor guy just wanted to know how to get the darn fins to stay on his Baby Bertha for cryin' out loud!

    Welcome to the "Deep End" of the pool! Careful...the water is hot!

    Try some more kits first. After you get the Baby Bertha finished try Fliskits. Then maybe a couple of clones of old favorite kits...we can direct you when the time comes.

    Then...maybe...if you want to...start "thinking" about Mid Power rockets with D thru G motors.

    Ya gotta get the fins to stick really good for those!

    sandman
     
  13. Oct 8, 2003 #13

    PGerringer

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    Aerotech's fin lock system helps with that. May I suggest when going for mid-power, you try out the Aerotech Mustang? If you do a search on this forum, you will notice the Mustang is a fav of mine.

    Now when you start "thinking about: high-power, well, we can help with that too. :)

    So now, who is going to follow behind and give him ideas of high-powered vehicles? tee-hee, lets create a monster. :D
     
  14. Oct 8, 2003 #14

    Fore Check

    Fore Check

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    I know we all get giddy with the mid and higher powered stuff - but I know from experience that it would be very difficult to even get started in that area on a tight budget.

    Think about the cost of a singlue use Aerotech mid-powered engine (24-29mm), let alone an RMS casing system and some reloads. Then he'll need the bigger pad to handle 1/4" + launch rods or a rail system, and a bigger/better launch controller than the the trusty Estes electron beam controller. Kits are a bit more money too.

    Not to scare our new friend, but it's probably best to ease back in as Sandman has mentioned.


    As for me, however, I have more dollars than sense it seems at times..................

    When the bank statement arrives

    My wife ----> :kill: <----- Me


    :eek:
     
  15. Oct 8, 2003 #15

    Rocketmaniac

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    Sandman, you are a riot!!!. How you come up with this stuff is great........ I've been called many things in my life, but this is a first.... Dope Dealer??? I'm just hooked on all rockets in general!!!!!
     
  16. Oct 8, 2003 #16

    PGerringer

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    LOL, Rocketmaniac = Rocketjunkie. :D

    Fore is right. going mid and high gets progressively more expensive. But when you "progress" you know where to come for your "fix" right? :)
     
  17. Oct 8, 2003 #17

    Rocketmaniac

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    Well, I guess.... But we have a "Rocketjunkie" here on the forum. He is the "Prefect" at our local club.........
     
  18. Oct 8, 2003 #18

    jflis

    jflis

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    LOL, sandman, I nearly peed myself when I read this, but I've been *thinking* this just didn't know a PC way of saying it.... I guess "straight out" is always the best way to go...

    SFenix, when you've exhausted all that low power provides (30-40 years may do it), then consider moving on to HPR (man, i'm gonna catch heck for that one :D )

    oh, ditto what Sandman said about looking at FlisKits (but them, i'm rather biased... :) )

    jim
     
  19. Oct 8, 2003 #19

    Larry

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    Welcome to TRF. There must be something in that composite propellent smoke. Once you have launched a rocket on APCP your hooked. Have fun...:) ....Larry
     
  20. Oct 8, 2003 #20

    SFenix

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    Thanks for the warm welcome! :) I dont think I've ever been to a forum with people this friendly, and I'm on a lot of forums... Thanks again!


    Lamart, Sandman
    Sounds good, I'll try that next. I'd done the sanding thing, but rivets.. I like it. Thanks.

    Jflis, wscarvie, pcgerringer
    Good point, next time at Wally World or Hobby Lobby, I'll check out the snap swivels. About cellulose, this'll probably sound kinda.. wierd.. but I take it, it's probably not biodegradeable? I'm not exactly a tree-hugger, but I dont want to contribute to the problem either.. :/ Ideas? I'll go take a look at your 'chutes in a second too flis. ;) Mustang sounds good too!

    Rocket trike
    What's the advantage of Mylar>Plastic if they both melt? Mylar just last a little longer? Any recommendations on brands to get? Gonna go pay another visit to the Support/Recovery section.

    stymye
    I agree, these are pretty basic, and I'm probably just getting caught up in the hype/problems that the bigger rockets need. I was just thinking of doing pre-emptive work to make them last a little longer.

    Swimmer
    Hey! Thanks for the offer. I have either soccer practice or a tournament most weekends, but I'll definitely have to try and join you guys someday. It'd be really neat to launch with guys who are really into this. Most of my unit is just in it for the Rocketry Badge.. can't say that that wasn't a motivating factor for me in the beginning though either.. ;)

    m3tjm
    For sure, L1 would be nice! For now, I'll just be going for my rather easy to obtain JROTC rocketry badge and CAP ribbon.

    Fore Check
    Exactly ;-) I always seem to get into the expensive stuff.. Computers, Paintball, Rockets.. Thank God I'm not big into decking out a music system in my car.

    Larry, rocketmaniac, everyone else
    Thanks for the welcome. You'll be seeing me around, trust me ;)
     
  21. Oct 8, 2003 #21

    wscarvie

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    Glad to have you aboard!

    Actually, it's very biodegradeable. In fact, the rangers who manage the island where we fly ask us not to use Estes or Quest wadding, in favor of cellulose, for this very reason. It's really just shredded newspaper and phone book, treated with something to make it heat resistent (and maybe flame resistent? Not sure about this one).

    Best of luck, and please keep us posted.
     
  22. Oct 9, 2003 #22

    BlueNinja

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    About Mylar...

    I've personally never used it except on MMX streamers, but it is highly reflective. It helps me see the rocket up in the trees:rolleyes:. I think that it is much stronger than the estes 'chutes.
     
  23. Oct 10, 2003 #23

    SFenix

    SFenix

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    That's great news about it being bio-degradable. Our first launch should be in two weeks to a month.. Don't really have the desire to wait that long, but reward comes to those who wait.. right? :)

    And just a tad off topic, I figure I might as well try and earn the NAR Cadet Mercury Cert., any recommendations for a good 24" rocket? I'm thinking maybe a Quest, just to see another different building style.
     
  24. Oct 10, 2003 #24

    Fore Check

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    How about a big Goblin? It comes in between 24 and 25 inches... ;)

    I'm just kidding, you know.....
     
  25. Oct 10, 2003 #25

    jflis

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  26. Oct 11, 2003 #26

    BlueNinja

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    Any motor limit? Does it have to be as close as possible to 24 in? If so, I recommend the Rhino also.
     
  27. Oct 11, 2003 #27

    SFenix

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    Rhino looks good for $12+Shipping, I'll definitely keep that in mind. Thanks.

    Today, I think I'll be painting the Baby Bertha and the Banshee... The Stingray really doesn't need a paintjob, but the Banshee... would look terrible without it.
     

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