Mach+ Carbon rocket T to T layup

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

rocketman4h

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
51
Reaction score
11
I have a Madcow 38mm Mongoose. I used HT JB weld for fin adhesion along with the fillets. This rocket will go past mach 1.5 and I am consernd about the fins. I am considering using 2' Carbon tape from fiberglast for a tip to tip enforcement. Should I use a high temp resin for the tape?
 
IMHO, at M1.5 you won't need high temp resin. Just IMHO use something better than West Systems which is essentially low temp resin. You also shouldn't need to go to the tips. Somewhat up the fins should be sufficient, to reinforce and transition the fillets into the fins. However others should chime in with their experience. For reference, by the time you are looking about halfway out on the fins, the bending load is down around 20% of what it is at the root. That's why I keep saying normal T-T is counter-productive. It puts mass at the worst place for no structural need in most cases. It also adds mass and makes the job harder.

Sheared fabric would be better. With tape, half and parhaps more of your fibers are running the length of the tape. For T-T you want the fibers predominantly running in the T-T direction not the body tube direction! If you take a section of somewhat open weave but good quality fiberglass and stretch it out along a diagonal to the fibers, the fabric will distort into a diamond pattern weave. Keep stretching until all the holes in the fabric close up. Now use that; it is sheared fabric. Now all the fibers can cross in roughly the right direction for optimum strength.

To make it so you can actually handle the fabric, once you have it sheared take a sheet of wax paper and VERY LIGHTLY mist it with 3M77. That is, put the sheet down on a surface, step back a couple feet, and aim over the top of the sheet. Let the mist settle on the sheet. You want almost none! Now put this sheet tacky side down on the fiberglass. You can mark dimensions on the wax paper and cut out patterns with scissors or roller cutter.

Wear gloves while handling the fabric. Finger oils are bad!

Prep where the fabric goes, clean well, and put a first coat of epoxy on the rocket. Put the dry fabric and wax paper piece on and rip off the wax paper once it is in place. That's why you want almost no adhesion between the wax paper and the fabric. It is just a convenient mechanism for handling and transferring otherwise difficult to manage pieces of fabric. The wax paper should almost but not quite fall off. BTW, ripping the wax paper off fast works much better then trying to slowly carefully remove it. If you've slitted the wax paper in the middle and start from there, it might be easier.

Fo that matter, wear gloves while working with epoxy. You really really do not want to become allergic to epoxy. That would end your hobby.

Roll out the fabric layer, add a little more epoxy if needed, and repeat with the rest of your layers. If using multiple layers (which I recommend) stagger the widths. The closer to the fillet, the more layers. That's where the strength is needed.

That's one way. There are others. You can make your own pre-preg if you want to.

Gerald
 
https://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/2/6/2/6/5/0/a7153153-190-Wing Bending Moment.png This would be representative of bending load vs position on the span of the fins. It's from some work I did some time ago, not a rocket fin but a sailplane wing, but the results will be very nearly the same.

Adding reinforcing out near the tips generally solves a problem which doesn't exist, at the cost of increasing other issues. Adding reinforcing near the root is generally a very good idea! And/or tapering the fins to be thicker at the root than the tips. Not really an option for a kit though. You'd want to start with thicker fin blanks and it is a lot of work or better, a CNC job.

Gerald
 
I've gone to well past Mach 2 (Mach 2.4 on an L935) with a Mongoose 54mm with just the black epoxy that came with the kit, (seems somewhat similar to JB Weld) and to nearly Mach 2 on a 38mm Mongoose (CTIJ530) with the same epoxy. No tip to tip, just good fin alignment and filets. I have built a number of very similar 38mm and 54mm MD rockets and flown them multiple times to near Mach 2 or past it with no issues with the fins.

I don't have any proof other than my personal experience and feedback from others but the Mongoose fin design seems to be perfect for Mach+ flights without requiring a lot of reinforcement.


Tony
 
Last edited:
Back
Top