Mach 10 what if?

[Planet Andy]

Hey,

getting a little nervous cause I've had my first MOD flash and my research says nobody has suggested this. Been wanting to build a boost glider and came across Jim Z's Mach 10 clone. I like what I see. Now...has anyone ever attempted to lose the whole separating streamer/marker thing and exhaust the ejection charges backwards for a little post apogee shove?...I've got a few ideas on how to implement it within the existing structure. Would it blow up? would it shove it to the ground? Is it a crazy idea?

(planet) andy

 

[Planet Andy]

over 50 views and not a peep from the peeps? I've been thinking more about this and I realize it would have to be balanced/trimmed to glide as well as pass the spin on a string test. Is this possible? I understand the whole ballistics of it would be different than originally designed in glide phase because the nose cone does not eject. That said, there are plenty of boost gliders that remain the same shape (for lack of a better word) from boost to glide.

andy

 

[SwingWing]

peep! I haven't built a Mach10, but I understand they are more of a controlled plummeter than a glider. If you eject the entire motor pod, this may lighten the bird and help performance, assuming rebalancing, etc.
As far as EJ charges adding performance, my Scissorwing Transport(s) regularly do a quick, tight loop as the result of the ejection charge (bomb in some recent cases) pushing the pop-pod out the back

 

[BobH48]

I built a Mach 10 when it first came out.

I haven't flown it for more than 30 years but maybe I'll take it to the next launch just to try it out..

IIRC, it was a little tricky to get a good flight. It tended to arc over backward so I would tilt the rod maybe 15 - 20 degrees and position the glider so it was upright on the rod. It would then arc upward and be fairly straight at ejection. I only tried it on B4-2's so I don't know how much arc you would get on a B6 or C6.

It is certainly not a floater. Glide is fairly fast but if its balanced correctly it won't come in excessively steep.

The nose cone is full of clay and you need all that nose weight to get any kind of a good boost. If you don't eject the nose with the streamer it will glide like a brick with wings...(straight down!)

Good luck with yours.

EDIT: I went back and saw that the minimum motor was a B4-2 so I know that I used the one recommended. I changed the reference above to a B4-2.

 

[Planet Andy]

Originally posted by BobH48
I built a Mach 10 when it first came out.

The nose cone is full of clay and you need all that nose weight to get any kind of a good boost. If you don't eject the nose with the streamer it will glide like a brick with wings...(straight down!)

D

Bob,


alright exactly what I was hoping for...experience. That entirely makes sense. I may build the Mach 10 as specified, I really like its look, I'm gathering the parts (an estes high flyer for the small tube, nose cone and motor mount) and it would be my first scratchbuilt. and do more looking into entry level boost gliders that are just boost gliders. I have separation anxiety with my rockets... I like things connected and returning as one.

Originally posted by SwingWing

As far as EJ charges adding performance, my Scissorwing Transport(s) regularly do a quick, tight loop as the result of the ejection charge (bomb in some recent cases) pushing the pop-pod out the back
D

I'm looking forward to the scissorwing reissue (just in time for the holiday list) also thanks for the info

Andy

 

[BobH48]

Originally posted by Andy Turits
and do more looking into entry level boost gliders that are just boost gliders. I have separation anxiety with my rockets... I like things connected and returning as one.

Andy

Take a look at the Astron Falcon for an entry level boost glider.

I have built four of them over the years and they have been great gliders...... In fact, too good. I have lost all of them to fly aways.

 

[mike_bar]

Originally posted by BobH48
Take a look at the Astron Falcon for an entry level boost glider.

Bob,
That's a fine looking boost glide rocket. I think I'll put one together. I may have it finished for the next CMASS launch.
Michael

 

[BobH48]

Here is a picture of my old Mach 10... My finishing skills weren't all that good

Edit: I should probably just repaint it. It's actually in pretty good shape

 

[Planet Andy]

Bob,


Thank you for steering me to the Falcon, I think that's it. Couldn't see the tree for the forest (maybe that's not a good expression in this forum!) in the unbelievable archive of plans available. Even a newbiebar such as myself has most of the pieces at hand! BTW your Mach 10 looks great, the paint job looks pretty good also despite your criticism. I get nostalgic (and it's only been 5 months) about my builds and like to keep them as I originally finished them to see how my skills have improved, and also to continue moving forward. And in the interest of moving forward I'm gonna try my hand at a scratchbuilt and it looks like the Falcon. My last two builds I began filling and finishing the spirals...may seem small but a milestone to me! Thanks again and now that I'm in it here I'll probably keep you all posted.

Andy

 

[BobH48]

Andy,

Remember that for a boost glider you want to keep weight at a minimum. Don't go overboard on the finish. It will affect the glide.

A lot of people just fly their gliders with no finish at all.

On my Falcons, I just gave them a light dusting of a bright color over the bare wood. Key word here is light .

Take plenty of time getting the glide right first. All of mine required a slight bit of weight at the tail. You can get a properly trimmed Falcon to glide almost flat. You should be able to get 50 - 100' on a hand toss.

I used to build Hand Launch Gliders so I have a lot of practice at trimming these. The Falcon is one of the easier to get to glide right.

 

[Planet Andy]

Originally posted by BobH48
Andy,

Remember that for a boost glider you want to keep weight at a minimum. Don't go overboard on the finish. It will affect the glide.

A lot of people just fly their gliders with no finish at all.

On my Falcons, I just gave them a light dusting of a bright color over the bare wood. Key word here is light .

Take plenty of time getting the glide right first. All of mine required a slight bit of weight at the tail. You can get a properly trimmed Falcon to glide almost flat. You should be able to get 50 - 100' on a hand toss.

thanks for all of that, I will keep all of that in mind and proceed accordingly.

andy

 

[BobH48]

While I don't have a full size Falcon at the moment (guess I'll have to make another over the winter) here is a picture of my Micro-Maxx version.

I broke my own "rules" and painted this one. One light coat of white over the bare wood and then I brush painted the body and tip plates yellow. Gold Monokote trim.

Even with the extra weight this 5" span glider will consistently glide 50' + from a shoulder height (5') hand toss.

If I can get a 50' boost, it translates into a 500' glide.

OBTW, I have lost a full size Falcon on a 1/2A6-2 boost.

 

[Planet Andy]

Originally posted by BobH48
While I don't have a full size Falcon at the moment (guess I'll have to make another over the winter) here is a picture of my Micro-Maxx version.

I broke my own "rules" and painted this one.

Bob,

Wow Micro Maxx is yet another side road of this world that I have yet to journey down. Looking forward to my (standard size)scratch Falcon build. Sometimes "rules" being broken leads to breakthroughs in knowledge. Micro Falcon flies AND looks great.

take care,
Andy

 

[Micromeister]

Originally posted by Andy Turits
over 50 views and not a peep from the peeps? I've been thinking more about this and I realize it would have to be balanced/trimmed to glide as well as pass the spin on a string test. Is this possible? I understand the whole ballistics of it would be different than originally designed in glide phase because the nose cone does not eject. That said, there are plenty of boost gliders that remain the same shape (for lack of a better word) from boost to glide.

andy

NO peep because I haven't done what your question ask.

I have build and flown several Mach-10's over the years. Original size and upscaled to BT-70 and BT-80. All require ejection of the boost nose weight ballast to allow it to transition into a glide. This model is very tricky to get the balance right with the ejectable nose weight, I'd say it would require an entire redesign to fly without it, changing the look dramatically.
The last part of your above statement is only partically ture. IF everyting stays together its a rocket glider, and it changes modes but varing the geometry thier by change the CG of the Gliding Phase of the model. This model already had as flat an elevator up lift as your gonna get. additional flaps on the wings will no move enough weight rearward to allow the model to settle into a glide. maybe extending the body rearward and somehow plopping it opne sideways like air breaks might to something i'm not at all sure??? but some drastic changes would have to be made.
end of peep

 

[BobH48]

Andy,

If you haven't done it already, go to the Estes educator site and download the PDF called Classic Collection. It contains all the old Technical Reports. TR-7 is the one for "front engine boost gliders". It used to be included in the Aston Falcon kits.

There is also a PDF titled "Technical Report for boost gliders".
It has a lot of good info if you really get into gliders.

https://www.esteseducator.com/cfusion/publications.cfm

 

[sandman]

One of the major drawbacks of the Mach 10 is the GAWD awful incedence you have to build into the horizontal stabalizer.

The result is a flight pattern that is a big arc during the boost phase and the consequence is the need for a shorter burn motor like the A8.

One Member of our local club, HUVARS, solved the problem with a music wire activated horizontal stabilizer that is routed through a long launch lug glued onto the trailing edge (I think) of the vertical stabilizer.

This activates the horizontal stablizer when the pod is ejected.

I have to get him to write something up on how he did that.

We were at a launch and I didn't really have time to give it a good exam. Busy busy busy!

It flew really high and had a good 30 or 40 sec glide with this configuration flying on a "C" motor.

 

[Micromeister]

suprisingly the BT- 80 upscale flown on D12-3 Boosted nealy straight (vertical) and transitioned into a great Tree top landing glide... Drat! The BT-70 version displayed the Looping trate Sandman just discribed. it was also flown with a D12-3.

 

[Planet Andy]

Originally posted by BobH48
Andy,

If you haven't done it already, go to the Estes educator site and download the PDF called Classic Collection. It contains all the old Technical Reports. TR-7 is the one for "front engine boost gliders". It used to be included in the Aston Falcon kits.

There is also a PDF titled "Technical Report for boost gliders".
It has a lot of good info if you really get into gliders.

https://www.esteseducator.com/cfusion/publications.cfm

whoa! Thanks ...I've never seen this section of the Estes site.
Lots of the basics to help the newbiebar get the physics and aerodynamics. All nicely downloadable. Perfect. Mach 10 is now off the table. Many variables of which I need to grasp.
But the Falcon may begin construction on the weekend. Just gotta round up the nosecone. Dad's said he'd be glad to turn me some. Meanwhile I'll get to reading TR-7 and the others.

Thank You All,
Andy

 

[rokitflite]

A member of NARHAMS here in Maryland named Jerry Flynn built the first BT-80 upscale of the Mach 10 that I have seen about 10-12 years ago. By playing with the weight of the nose cone and the size of the little V-shaped "elevator", he produced a C6-3 powered model that would win many boost glider events. Several times it was almost lost flying away over the trees. It was unbelievable! I have built a pretty cool 4" RC version that flies on Ds and Es for some very nice flights. Both of these Mach 10 scale-ups required the weighted nose cone and left the motor casing in place.

 

[Fishhead]

I built a BT-80 upscale, as well as several 1:1 clones. My latest is almost at it's perfect flight trim, but I haven't been inspired to fly it of late. This is a link to my upscale, as well as another by someone with talent.
https://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/scratch/mach10plus.html

Things I've learned while cloning the Mach 10:
Go light on paint.
Test glide it extensively with a burned out engine casing. Try for a fast fall as the hitching, up and down glide isn't as cool to watch. (Crowds dig the strafing action of a fast fall.)
Don't be tempted to try it on a C5-3.
The best engines for a 1:1 clone are the B4-2, B6-2 and C6-3.
Load all of the weight you can into the marker cone. (Straightens out the boost somewhat.)
If you luck out and get it trimmed just right, it can be flown in a stiff breeze and will hang in place until the ejection charge fires. (Or maybe I just got lucky.)

 

[BobH48]

Originally posted by Fishhead
I built a BT-80 upscale, as well as several 1:1 clones. My latest is almost at it's perfect flight trim, but I haven't been inspired to fly it of late. This is a link to my upscale, as well as another by someone with talent.
https://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/scratch/mach10plus.html

Things I've learned while cloning the Mach 10:
Go light on paint.
Test glide it extensively with a burned out engine casing. Try for a fast fall as the hitching, up and down glide isn't as cool to watch. (Crowds dig the strafing action of a fast fall.)
Don't be tempted to try it on a C5-3.
The best engines for a 1:1 clone are the B4-2, B6-2 and C6-3.
Load all of the weight you can into the marker cone. (Straightens out the boost somewhat.)
If you luck out and get it trimmed just right, it can be flown in a stiff breeze and will hang in place until the ejection charge fires. (Or maybe I just got lucky.)

I agree that the Mach 10 can be made fly decently. The thread starter (Andy) stated that this would be his first scratch build and his first boost glider. I tried to steer him to a glider that had a much higher chance of success for a first try.

Once he gets that first one under his belt, go for the Mach 10.

I am a boost glider fan and have decided to finish the SkyDart that I started in the early 70's.... Talk about a long project.

 

[rokitflite]

Hi Andy,
I am sorry I got people to talk about their Mach-10 up scales on this thread after BobH48 told you that it is not a good first choice. Its good that we have folks like that to keep us all in line. Are you looking to scratch-build your first boost glider or are kits a consideration? The Quest Flat Cat is a great performer and as proven by the late Harry Stine himself, a very forgiving model. Harry showed up at a launch with two of them that he had built with NO FINISHING WHATSOEVER not even rounded edges on any of the surfaces. Both of them thermaled away in the warm Arizona sky after a B motor launch never to be seen again. The ones we had that were all finished and airfoiled didn't do squat!

 

[rokitflite]

Here is a picture of my original MPC Flat Cat built in the 70s. it has had quite a few successful flights...

 

[Planet Andy]

Uh Yeah...guys... don't make me stop this car... No appologies are neccesary from anybody. At top of thread. I was kinda jumpin in all excited about the challenge of a first scratch build and got the boost glider bug at the same time and saw the mach10 which I thought might be modified. Bob suggested something less complicated with less potential aerodynamic caveats and steered me onto info explaining why my idea may not work out. Rockitflite got all excited about his Mach10 upscales and shared. Micromeister showed us his downscale Mach10...Rockit Now I'm also gonna look into the flat cat. Looks similar to the falcon. Along the way I discovered estes tech reports which have tons of good information. I also learned in my area who has the best balsa stock for the best price. I was surprised to find the chain store has significantly higher prices for lower quality and it's really picked over. I learned that my dad who's 75 and a retired IBMer with a great workshop would be happy to lathe up some nosecones with me, but he still won't come out on a launch. dunno what's up with that. And now, the flight descriptions have got me nervous that I may not have the field space for a boost glider even. It's gonna need to circle down at any rate, but I'm gonna give it a go. As I said before now I've got all the materials but the nosecones for any number of scratch builds. Meanwhile (on the weekend) I'm planning on finishing my replacement Ion Pulsar and starting a scratch build of something. I've looked over the falcon plans and worked them through in my head over and over. I'm also gonna look at the flatcat. My success at kits up to SL2 gives me the confidence to see that a scratch build is just the same...you need to get the components is the only difference. Circling back like a nicely trimmed boost glider, This thread and this forum is all about sharing information and that's what everybody has done. No appologies are neccesary...Now everybody have a nice Wednesday, the weekend will soon be here.

(planet) andy

 

[BobH48]

Originally posted by BobH48
While I don't have a full size Falcon at the moment (guess I'll have to make another over the winter) here is a picture of my Micro-Maxx version.

I broke my own "rules" and painted this one. One light coat of white over the bare wood and then I brush painted the body and tip plates yellow. Gold Monokote trim.

Even with the extra weight this 5" span glider will consistently glide 50' + from a shoulder height (5') hand toss.

If I can get a 50' boost, it translates into a 500' glide.

OBTW, I have lost a full size Falcon on a 1/2A6-2 boost.

Well, now I have lost a Falcon on a Micro-Maxx. I launched my Micro Falcon today and it made a high arc toward the trees. At ejection, it went into a nice flat glide straight into the woods. I'm sure that I got the 50 ft. boost that I was looking for.

Now I'm going to have to make another.

 

[Planet Andy]

Originally posted by BobH48
I'm sure that I got the 50 ft. boost that I was looking for.

Now I'm going to have to make another.

...and the glide to boot. ha ha not laughing at your loss, laughing because this thread has popped up again and my Falcon has yet to be flown maybe soon?

andy

 

[nialloswald]

What about the VMX Spaceplanes?

There's a review on EMRR, I've seen quite a few fly very nicely. In fact I've seen a similar model (in a competition) fly off into the distance, barely losing altitude, must have been up for a good couple of minutes.

They don't eject the motor, instead they use hinged elvons which are held flat by aerodynamic forces during boost, but which then spring up to control the glide angle.