Mach 1 4" "Groovy Tube" Questions

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

lowga

A.K.A. 'Mr. HoJo'
TRF Supporter
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Messages
613
Reaction score
213
Location
Birmingham, AL
Groovy Tube_1.png

I may be in possession of the only Mach 1 4" "Groovy Tube" fiberglass rocket kit ever sold by the original owners of Mach 1 Rocketry, Ronald Dunn and Steve Skinner. It was a gift to me from the owners, and it's been sitting in the workshop for quite a while. Ronald designed the rocket from an idea that I had about upscaling the classic Centuri "Groove Tube" kit.

4-inch diameter, about 6 feet tall, 75 mm motor mount.

Originally, I had intended to build it like any other fiberglass rocket, attaching the tubes to the airframe using Rocketpoxy or similar. But with the possibility of flying some large "L" motors or even a baby-M, I started wondering if mounting the tube fins with bolts might be a better option. Thoughts? Anyone built a tube fin rocket of this size before?
 
If you have the room to use bolts, I’d say use them along with epoxy. With that size rocket, the weight wouldn’t be an issue. The tricky bit would be trying to screw them in.
 
I have built a very similar sized tube fin rocket - a upscalish Estes Neon:

PXL_20210323_133509805.jpg

4" diameter, 8-1/2 feet tall, 22 pounds dry weight.

I attached the tube fins with epoxy and also installed 6-32 PEM nuts in the airframe and bolted the tubes fins into that. Two of the PEMS were 8-32 and I used those for the rail buttons inside one of the tube fins.

PXL_20210517_004452413.jpg

PXL_20210517_005657007.jpg

This rocket has maybe 20 flights on it now, with most flights on L motors. I have flown it a number of times on the Loki L1400 - gets it up to about 4000 feet at about 450 MPH. The fins have held up perfectly.
 
I had a 3" upscale of the Centuri Groove Tube built with LOC parts. Largest motor was a K550. Recovered a couple months later. No flight damage but destroyed by rain. It only weighed 2 lb. prepped but without motor. I used a copier to upscale the decals. No tracker. This is one of the reasons for getting a tracker setup (Walston RDF transmitters and receiver).
DSC00931.JPG DSC00932.JPG DSC00933.JPG DSC00934.JPG DSC00935.JPG
 
I have built a very similar sized tube fin rocket - a upscalish Estes Neon:

View attachment 508374

4" diameter, 8-1/2 feet tall, 22 pounds dry weight.

I attached the tube fins with epoxy and also installed 6-32 PEM nuts in the airframe and bolted the tubes fins into that. Two of the PEMS were 8-32 and I used those for the rail buttons inside one of the tube fins.

View attachment 508375

View attachment 508376

This rocket has maybe 20 flights on it now, with most flights on L motors. I have flown it a number of times on the Loki L1400 - gets it up to about 4000 feet at about 450 MPH. The fins have held up perfectly.

Beautiful rocket! Now for the silly question part. How did you manage to drill the holes through the tube fins, and into the air frame ensuring that everything lined up?

With a 4" diameter, I can't fit a hand drill into the tube---so I'm assuming I'd need to measure and mark hole locations on both airframe and tube fins, then bolt them in?

Sounds like something I'm also certain to mess up? Any tips? A jig perhaps?

Explain it to me like I'm five years old. My wife says I often am! (Seriously, thanks for the advice)
 
I'll be building a 7.5" version of the variable drag project. Probably will run a 3/4" rod between the body and tube fins when using all 6 plates. Can use a 1515 rail when using less plates. Buttons will be in tapped holes in the fiberglass airframe.
 
Originally, I had intended to build it like any other fiberglass rocket, attaching the tubes to the airframe using Rocketpoxy or similar. But with the possibility of flying some large "L" motors or even a baby-M, I started wondering if mounting the tube fins with bolts might be a better option. Thoughts? Anyone built a tube fin rocket of this size before?
Rocketpoxy is sufficient to attach the tubefins on a filament wound fiberglass minimum diameter 98mm rocket that flew on a N2000. Don't worry about the bolts, and leave the motor mount out.


 
Last edited:
Beautiful rocket! Now for the silly question part. How did you manage to drill the holes through the tube fins, and into the air frame ensuring that everything lined up?

With a 4" diameter, I can't fit a hand drill into the tube---so I'm assuming I'd need to measure and mark hole locations on both airframe and tube fins, then bolt them in?

Sounds like something I'm also certain to mess up? Any tips? A jig perhaps?

Explain it to me like I'm five years old. My wife says I often am! (Seriously, thanks for the advice)

Great question. As others have noted, You can just epoxy the tube fins on and you should be fine. This is also your only real option if the main airframe is going to be minimum diameter.

The way I approached the PEM nuts and bolts worked out well for me:

- I marked a line up the fin tubes and carefully measured out the six evenly spaced lines around the body tube (note, for this build, the fins were couplers because I also wanted to have room for straight fins in between the tube fins.)
- I measured the exact position of the bolt holes on each tube fin and the airframe
- Using a drill press, I drilled the holes in the body tube the correct size for the PEM nuts and, this is key, the holes in the tube fins a little bit larger than was needed for the bolts. This gave me a bit of room for error.
- Most importantly, when you epoxy the PEM nuts into the airframe, use a slow or medium cure epoxy to give yourself some working time. Epoxy the PEMs in position for 1 tube fin and, while the epoxy is still wet, bolt the tube fin on (you need to hold the PEM nut on the inside with your finger, being careful not to get epoxy on the threads), position the tube fins while the bolts are still a little loose, then tighten down the bolts and let the epoxy on the PEM fully cure.
- Move onto the next tube fin

I chose to do this installation at the point in my build where I had installed the motor mount assembly, but had not yet epoxied in the rear CR. This allowed me to access inside the body tube and install the PEMS. Once they were in place, I removed the fin tubes (Numbering them so I knew which fin location they went back to). Then I placed a small piece of tape over the inside of the threads on the PEMs and installed the straight fins. While I was laying in the interior fillets, I reinforced the epoxy around the PEM nuts (the previously placed tape protecting the threads). Once the straight fins were completely in and filleted, I placed epoxy on each of the three contact edges of the tube fines and on the bolt threads and bolted the tube fins in.

One tool that helped me out greatly on this build (and many others) was this Dewalt angle head for my electric screwdriver. It would have been difficult to screw the bolts in securely without it.

PXL_20220309_150913559.jpg

Once again, I want to emphasize that there are many techniques in rocketry and other posters are completely correct that epoxied on tube fins work fine. I chose to do it this way and it has worked for me. This rocket has gotten a lot of abuse and some hard landings, but no damage. I am confident I could stand on these fins and they would hold me up.

IMG_3307.jpg

Red Glare Ultra Neon XXL 2.jpg
 
Making a right angle screwdriver Could modify into a wrench or Allen. It doesn't have to have the perfect finish :) This would allow reaching into a tube fin for tightening a screw. Or you could use the method I used for the 4". Note that my tube fin rockets are not minimum diameter. Finally, there are fly away button carriers available but consider them single use.
 
Thanks for the great advice. I'm convinced that the combination of bolts and epoxy is going to be the preferred method for the construction of my Groove Tube upscale. Now, let's talk about painting the interior of those tubes.
 
Thanks for the great advice. I'm convinced that the combination of bolts and epoxy is going to be the preferred method for the construction of my Groove Tube upscale. Now, let's talk about painting the interior of those tubes.

Wasn't too difficult - once I had the PEMS in place and the straight fins installed, but before I did the permanent installation of the tube fins, I painted everything. I masked all epoxy zones with 1/4" strips of masking tape so the epoxy would only hit bare fiberglass. Painting the inside was as easy as holding the tube up and shooting a spray paint can inside. Trick is to aim the spray at the half of the tube that is away from you and then turn the tube around and shot it from the other side. 3 coats of colors and some clear coats and Bob's your uncle. Then paint the outside of the tubes and paint all the other parts of the rocket, Finally, bolt/epoxy the tube fins on. Easy breezy covergirl.
 
I did a 6" Kraken with BlueTube. The fins where epoxied on with large fillets and X large headed pop rivits. The tube fins left the rocket, pop rivets and epoxy stayed behind. Don't think they helped at all.

OSKRAKENLIFTOFF.jpegIMG_0367.JPG
 
The Groovy Tube is a six-fin design with tubes that completely circle the airframe. Plan to support those with both RocketPoxy and bolts. I've seen attempts to break Mach speed with a fin can design, but I'm not attempting anything like that. My plan is "low and slow." One of the most fun parts of tube fin rockets is that they are super-stable and also high drag. This results in flights that you can see well, and track easier with the eye. What's not to like?
 
The Groovy Tube is a six-fin design with tubes that completely circle the airframe. Plan to support those with both RocketPoxy and bolts. I've seen attempts to break Mach speed with a fin can design, but I'm not attempting anything like that. My plan is "low and slow." One of the most fun parts of tube fin rockets is that they are super-stable and also high drag. This results in flights that you can see well, and track easier with the eye. What's not to like?

Agree on all counts. A well designed and built tube fin rocket has almost no choice but to fly straight and true. And it is very cool to be able to shove an M motor in a 25 pound rocket and only have it go up 5000 feet.

One thing I would point out for anyone who has not built a high powered tube fin rocket, the drag separation WILL separate your booster from the payload bay about 0.1 seconds after boost if you don't secure the connection. Shear pins in the booster are must-do for these rockets.

Other unintended consequence - your booster is so much more draggy than your payload bay, you need to consider a bigger drogue to ensure you don't deploy your main into the booster. Or, you can get crazy and put your main in the booster (I do this for my high drag rockets like tube fin rockets and Goblins. Everyone tells me it is wrong, wrong, wrong, yet it has worked for me on at least 50 flights while I almost can't attend a launch without seeing someone eject a main into a Goblin booster... I am not telling you I recommend you do it, but it has worked for me.)
 
Last edited:
Thanks for sharing your insights, mtnmanak. I am going back to RockSim to look at possibly deploying the main from the booster section vs. a larger drogue parachute. Had already planned on the sheer pins based on my experiences with a 3" diameter tube fin rocket I built in the early 2000s.
 
If you do decide to go with the more commonplace config of the drogue in the booster and main in the payload bay, here is an illustration of too small a drogue and the right sized drogue.

For a 25 pounds rocket, I usually find a 15" or 18" Fruity chute works nicely - here is what an 18" fruity chute drogue looked like on that tube fin rocket:

1647043787661.png

Luckily, that flight did not end in disaster. The main just missed the booster and all was good.

Here is that rocket on a 24" SkyAngle drogue that I would normally use on a much larger rocket:

1647043914706.png

That was properly sized and a lot less hair raising on the main deployment.

It was later that I started switching the main to the booster, which has allowed me to fly this rocket with a much smaller drogue or even drogueless on some occasions.
 
I fly my 7.5" Goblin with the main in the nose cone. After the 1st 2 flights which were drogueless, I used a 44" drogue at apogee and the main at 700'
Drogueless, the body is still stable. Does well with the drogue.
Flight on L800 (75/3680 Rx), no drogue
Flight on L952 with drogue
 
Last edited:
One thing to remember about tube fin rockets. Do not even try to go supersonic. Even transsonic will rip the tube fins off. As you go trans sonic the airflow changes and the airflow wont flow through the tube fins. Will rip them right off no matter how well mounted they are.
 
One thing to remember about tube fin rockets. Do not even try to go supersonic. Even transsonic will rip the tube fins off. As you go trans sonic the airflow changes and the airflow wont flow through the tube fins. Will rip them right off no matter how well mounted they are.
This is truest for cardboard fins that are taller than they are wide. If they're made of stern enough material they should hold up okay although their airflow is all choked up as you say.
 
One thing to remember about tube fin rockets. Do not even try to go supersonic. Even transsonic will rip the tube fins off. As you go trans sonic the airflow changes and the airflow wont flow through the tube fins. Will rip them right off no matter how well mounted they are.
I've flown my 3" tubefin supersonic a few times now. I don't have exact velocity numbers since I didn't have an accelerometer onboard, but you can quite clearly see the transition in the barometer data. That rocket has shredded a few times as well, but the fins have always stayed on, and have only ever been damaged by the ground.
Screenshot 2022-03-12 205337.png
 
I fly my 7.5" Goblin with the main in the nose cone. After the 1st 2 flights which were drogueless, I used a 44" drogue at apogee and the main at 700'
Drogueless, the body is still stable. Does well with the drogue.
Flight on L800 (75/3680 Rx), no drogue
Flight on L952 with drogue


What’s the empty weight of your Goblin?
Neat flights.
 
Back
Top