# lvl 1 certification rocket recomendation

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#### Hazza_Rockets

##### Member
Hello,
I frequently fly mid-power rockets but I want to start launching high power rockets and get my LVL 1 certification. The only reason I haven't done so already is I can't decide which rocket to get. Could someone with past experience please give me some recommendations? One rocket that has stood out to me is the 1/4 scale patriot by public missiles, do you think this rocket is suitable?

edit:
I am a resident of New Zealand and so there is not a large selection of rockets available. I could get a rocket shipped from overseas but the shipping is very expensive and is just not worth it. Here is a list of the available rockets in New Zealand:
-4" AGM-33 Pike Rocket
-4" PAC-3 Rocket
-Nike Smoke - 98mm
-Patriot Missile 1/4 Scale Rocket
-Excalibur

-V2 High Power Rocket 98mm

Thanks,
Harry

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#### swatkat

##### Down these mean skies, a kat must fly!
Patriots can have a hard time remaining stable just due to the CP/CG relationship with their fin size and length if made exactly to Scale. (Loc's 2.6" kit is a good example). PML does make a great kit though! For that same price you may also like their 3" AMRAAM. (I have the 4" one and it goes great on J's all day long, the added weight up front makes it much more stable, and the quick switch mount gives you the ability to work all the way through L1 up to L2, plus you can set it up for dual deploy later if needed). Also to consider are the good ol' standby LOC IV, the Apogee Zephyr and the Madcow DX3. I think those are by far the most popular L1 birds out there. Mach 1 also has some really good fiberglass kits in that price range if working with that medium isn't an issue.

#### Hazza_Rockets

##### Member
Patriots can have a hard time remaining stable just due to the CP/CG relationship with their fin size and length if made exactly to Scale. (Loc's 2.6" kit is a good example). PML does make a great kit though! For that same price you may also like their 3" AMRAAM. (I have the 4" one and it goes great on J's all day long, the added weight up front makes it much more stable, and the quick switch mount gives you the ability to work all the way through L1 up to L2, plus you can set it up for dual deploy later if needed). Also to consider are the good ol' standby LOC IV, the Apogee Zephyr and the Madcow DX3. I think those are by far the most popular L1 birds out there. Mach 1 also has some really good fiberglass kits in that price range if working with that medium isn't an issue.

#### dhbarr

##### Amateur Professional
-4" AGM-33 Pike Rocket
-4" PAC-3 Rocket
-Nike Smoke - 98mm
-Patriot Missile 1/4 Scale Rocket
-Excalibur

-V2 High Power Rocket 98mm
Any of these would be a fine choice.

The Patriot & V2 would require a bit more nosewight, thus higher possibility of a cracked fin on landing. The Smoke & Excalibur are probably the simplest.

#### noffie79

##### Well-Known Member
I used the Madcow PAC-3 as my L2 build. Great rocket. But for L1 I went with the LOC IV. My suggestion for L1 is to pick something easy to build and keep it simple. Use your L1 to use different build techniques and learning how to assemble motors.

#### roytyson

##### Well-Known Member
4" LOC Goblin can be used for both L1 and L2. Very stable, and flys extremely well.

#### Nytrunner

##### Pop lugs, not drugs
Th 4" Pike should be simple to stabilize and look really cool!

But if you want to do the patriots, don't be afraid. Just use a simulator to determine the proper amount of noseweight for stability

#### Titan II

##### Well-Known Member
The Patriot would be perfectly fine. The fins will be fine if you properly size the chute.

#### Johnly

##### Well-Known Member
Of the rockets on the list supplied by the OP, the Nike Smoke and the AGM-33 Pike would be my picks as they have solid stability margins.
The Nike Smoke might be the easier build, but the Pike is a cool looking rocket on the pad or just leaning against the wall at home.

#### swatkat

##### Down these mean skies, a kat must fly!
I have two Pikes... they are anything but stable without the proper amount of nose weight. And even then there's sometimes a wiggle. I'd recommend that Smoke (I have one of those as well) both for the fin placement (tube hits first on landing, not fins) and for the ease of building. Second choice would be a Patriot with the proper nose weight added.

#### BDB

##### Absent Minded Professor
I like the Pike too, but that's just personal preference. I built a 4" cardboard/plywood kit for my L1 and I still love flying it. I agree that all of rockets on the OPs list are good picks.

#### Donnager

##### Well-Known Member
While the military stuff looks good, I'd choose a Nike Smoke from that list if you can get it in 54mm. Those rockets seem to do very well, and are generally easy to build with little need for nose weight customization. My 4" Nike Smoke flies vertically and will fall backward straight down (tail first) waiting for the chute to deploy.

As far as looks, the Pike is my favorite, I have a little one. The rockets with large fins forward may need a little more nose weight.

Patriot wouldn't scare me, I have a 29mm 2.6" and it does have a bit of nose weight, but there's no reason to be worried about it. It flies great.

I did my level 1 with a LOC Goblin on an H219

Any LOC 4" draggy kit would be my first choice for a level 1.

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#### Hazza_Rockets

##### Member
Thanks so much, I really appreciate it. You all have such great advice.

#### Hazza_Rockets

##### Member
I to really like the pike, I will continue to do a bit of research and some testing od the sim.

#### spigalau

##### Well-Known Member
HI Harry - where in NZ are you ? We are based out of Auckland and are members of NZRA.

There are a bunch of Patriot QSP's flying in NZ - there is a local Facebook group (Public Missiles 1/4 Patriot Group) that covers a bunch of the build stuff and there are some 'quick build' parts to make things easier.

This is a flight from Sunday of a scratch built Patriot on 54mm -

Now on topic: Keep in mind, the 38mm DMS motors are much more cost effective & easier to source locally via Jerry (Aerospace Education). You will be paying around NZD$170.00 for an I280DM @ 38mm and a couple of dollars more for a J @ 38mm. The 54mm DMS motors that he stocks are not suitable to L1 flights, his smallest is a J450M at that size. They also start @ NZD$270

If you look at - https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/build-mac-performance-3-scorpion-xl-on-38mm.153453/ - that thread details our L1/L2 build that we did last year. If we were to do it again today, I would built it exactly the same way, but use the original 54mm motor mount & use an adapter for 38mm flights.

#### OverTheTop

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter

Good-sized cardboard airframes. I did L1 with a shortened Velociraptor. Not sure what shipping to NZ would be.

As for your list, pick the one that you think you will have the most enjoyment building and flying.

#### Voyager1

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I had the 1/4 scale PML Patriot a few years ago and it was a fine flyer. Unfortunately, at the time I chose the 29mm MMT version, which I regretted. If you buy this rocket, get the 38mm MMT version or, better still, make it with a 54mm MMT.

#### Back_at_it

##### Well-Known Member
Initially I picked up a LOC IV to build for my level 1 but after watching one fly on a "small" H, I decided the altitude was simply too much for a level 1 attempt so I started asking around. The two rockets that came up more than any others were the LOC Warlock and the new LOC Doorknob. Both are the larger 7.5 inch tube so they are real draggy.

When sim'ed a stock Warlock is projected to weight 103oz with a H550 motor. While I'm still working on mine, I'm at 100oz empty and I'm only in the primer stage. I'm figuring somewhere around 115-118oz once done and ready to fly. The sim still shows 950ft but in talking to club members that have flown it, they are in the 600-650ft range in reality.

Everyone is telling me to go with a short fat little rocket. Go slow and go low.

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TRF Supporter

#### tomrcflyer

##### Member
I did my L1 on a LOC IV. Great rocket.

#### Hazza_Rockets

##### Member
Update:
I have ordered the -4" AGM-33 Pike Rocket. Thank you all for your help. I am really excited to get building.

Thanks,
Harry

TRF Supporter
Nice choice!