Lost my Eggtimer rocket down range, time for Featherweight

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PhxRocketeer

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Pulling the trigger on a FW after losing my 2nd Eggtimer. This second one was due to a main chute deployment at 10k feet. Not sure why, and only inferring based on descent rate. Lost tracking a mile down range and 8400’ up.


any special antennas needed on the FW ground station to get the insane tracking mileage? I never want to lose tracking again 😭😭😭. Also, don’t tell my wife 😂
 
any special antennas needed on the FW ground station to get the insane tracking mileage? I never want to lose tracking again 😭😭😭. Also, don’t tell my wife 😂

1) might want to get a directional antenna you can swap out if needed on the receiver.
2) might have ready a 'chase' vehicle ahead of time
 
Are you chasing the right problem? I have found rockets 2+ miles away with 900mhz Eggfinder stuff. Can you get within a mile of the rocket? A new/different tracker isnt going to solve all your problems here I dont think.

To add to Arts comments;

Do you have a support team near you that can help ensure you are getting your chutes as intended?
Can you have friends help you track on launch day to ensure you know the direction to head to pick up the signal again? unless very hilly, most times if you can get within half/three quarter of a mile, you can pick the signal back up.
Are you fully versed in reading the display info on the Eggfinder? (I don't mean any disrespect, but you would be shocked by how many people don't know what all the data means)

Just thoughts to consider.
 
I've found a rocket 5 miles away on 900mHz. That was with a RFDesign 900mHz diversity module. They've been tested to 74km on 900mHz.
The frequency is not the problem.

We're your vent holes into the AV bay correctly sized? Could your apogee ejection charge have leaked into the AV bay setting off the main? How were you releasing the main? Ejection charge? JLCR? Tender descender? CO2 ejection.?
Did you have shear pins holding it together? How were they sized?
Why did you stop receiving data when it was in the air at 8000ft. Transmission from that high up should be easily receivable. There's nothing to block the signal.
I think there's a few other things going on other than 900mHz issues.
Once you identify what that is and solve it, you'll be on your way to successful recovery.
 
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Make sure you weren't pointing your receive antenna at where you expect the rocket to be. That is its least sensitive direction. Keep the stick antenna at right-angles to where the transmitter is. I have seen a few people pointing the antenna at the rocket. A quick tweaked to the technique can save the day.

The Egg products will be more than adequate for what you need.

The Featherweight stuff is wonderful, if you have the cash to spend.
 
I think you’re chasing the wrong problem. First problem to solve would be why you’re consistently kicking out the laundry at 10k. That right there is problematic in most recoveries.
 
Make sure you weren't pointing your receive antenna at where you expect the rocket to be. That is its least sensitive direction. Keep the stick antenna at right-angles to where the transmitter is. I have seen a few people pointing the antenna at the rocket. A quick tweaked to the technique can save the day.

The Egg products will be more than adequate for what you need.

The Featherweight stuff is wonderful, if you have the cash to spend.

+ a few

Stik, Whip, Duck antennas receive from the sides not the tips/end
Put a donut over a whip antenna and that is how radio waves travel out/in to it. Not much if anything gets in from the top.

Yagi antennas you point at the rocket, as they are made up many stiks on each side , with their sides facing the way you point.

This is a way to explain it to a non-radio person.

Here is a hand held 440mhz antenna I use, you point this at the rocket, the sticks are on the side. This increases gain, signal strength with the many sticks; called elements in radio speak.

1735478444483.png
 
1) 100% you are right that I need to improve my dual deploy. There’s no doubt about that. It was a small BT-55 rocket with thin wall tubing. I was only using friction to hold the nose on after drogue and I’m confident this was the issue. I knew this was a risk, but didn’t consider just how bad the drift would be from 10k. Next dual deploy rocket will get several lower flights until I’m sure it’s working correctly.

2) I also had a very crowded eBay with some wires running around the antenna, maybe that affected range? But I was pointing antennas correctly at least. Doing some Pythagoren, I lost it right around 3mi point to point distance.

3) No I didn’t have a chase team ready. I didn’t plan for drift like that. This was my highest rocket yet and I hadn’t considered that it would drift so far. Another lesson learned the hard way.

All good advice though. All the same, I think I will go the FW route. I want to keep going higher and I’d love the peace of mind. I also realize I need to improve my methods still and shouldn’t use the FW as a crutch. Will keep reading responses.
 
One suggestion: I am not sure if you did this: I will make a check-out flight and work my way up to a higher altitude. So many thing can go wrong when the rocket it out of site. I test my electronics with a lower flight.
Yup. 1000%. Learned this lesson, like most, the hard way. Future dual deploys will always fly to 2-3k a few times before going high. #NoMoreLostRockets.

Thanks all. The advice is humbling and helpful!
 
Some years ago, I started using APRS Ham Radio programs to track rockets with the 400Mhz stuff on a laptop. There was no 900Mhz back in the day. (Remember Beeline? They're still in business!) Could download photomaps of the launchsite for the laptop in advance and didn't need an internet connection. I asked an APRS program author how I could use his program to read the GPS positions for a 900Mhz GPS rocket trackers when they started coming out to the public. The APRS tracker uses an APRS word protocol when transmitting that has to be decoded. The 900Mhz stuff just uses the NMEA positions coming in.
In a matter of hours, the author told me how to use a second instance of his program to pipe the NMEA words of the rocket tracker to the first instance to display both the local position and the 900Mhz tracking rocket's position on the first instance running. If one wants their local position displayed on an APRS program, it just expects the NMEA words to come in for local GPS position and APRS packets to come in for APRS Ham band tracking of a rocket.
I might have been the only one around tracking 900Mhz GPS trackers live on a map at the time.
I will tell you, seeing the last known position of a rocket on a map really helps with recovery and with APRS tracking every position is displayed. One can see a drift trend on a live map and if no rocket at the last known position, Just whip out the 400Mhz Yagi and just proceed in the direction that is suggested by the drift trend on the map. Even without a Yagi and using a whip, if one keeps walking they'll find the rocket and reacquire the signal. A Yagi used in recovery will increase the ground footprint of the downed rocket and one might get a position sooner than with a whip. I experimented with that by using a 400Mhz Yagi for APRS recovery and when I received a signal, I detached the Yagi and put on the straight whip. The signal disappeared. Put the Yagi on and it returned. Nonetheless, if the flier is using the whip and goes in the proper direction, they'll reacquire the signal.
Found intact APRS rockets every single time once I got into the ground footprint of the tracker.
The only time one might NOT receive a final ground position is if the GPS antenna in the rocket tracker is facing the dirt 400 or 900Mhz. I never had that happen though. Always would receive when in the ground footprint of the tracker.
The reason I went with direct mapping is I saw several fliers screw up hand inputting the lat/longitude units into their handheld GPS trackers and go on wild goose chases. In one case in the APRS days, I would monitor every Beeline GPS tracker that came to fly on the laptop APRS mapping program so I could gain experience. One fellow whose flight I was monitoring on an APRS map, came back in to the flight line dejected with no rocket. I went up and showed him on the laptop map, "It should be RIGHT HERE!" He replied he put the lat/long in his handheld Garmin 60Cs mapping GPS and came up empty. I told him, "Let me see that." (the 60Cs).) He was using the wrong lat/long units! I corrected the units, input the final lat/long and he found his rocket! I had a 60Cs too and read the instruction booklet for it 6 times. Did alot of mapping APRS tracking up to that time. Knew what to look for and fixed it for him in seconds. Boy was he a happy camper when he found his rocket!
That's why I stuck with live mapping 900 Mhz GPS/APRS as it gives so much more information for recovery.
I did switch to the Android program GPS Rocket Locator: https://download.cnet.com/gps-rocket-locator/3000-31711_4-78090096.html
as it was a lot easier to use on a smaller Android Nexus 7 for the 900Mhz GPS tracker as the ground footprint was so much smaller than lugging a
laptop around. One could download maps online of a launchsite in various resolutions and not use an expensive cell phone link. As I recall, it had a few glitches but it was still very usable. As a tip, always put the Android device in a cardboard box with a flap to guard against glare unless the Android device has a screen that can be seen in the sun. Also avoid using a phone and get an Android with a bigger screen. I didn't have one at the time that would work in the sun. Found out the hard way hence the "box trick".
I still do a bit of RDF tracking with smaller rockets. If outta sight, I hold a Garmin 60Cs or 60CsX parallel to the Yagi beam when I get a good bearing. With the "sight n' go feature" I can lock the bearing into the handheld Garmin GPS and it will guide me on the track. I try to wait until the rocket is lower especially if I can see it and lock the bearing then. If I can't see it, I wing it and if the radio signal strength meter starts to drop, I lock the bearing then. If one walks far enough, they'll find the rocket. Oh a radio with a good signal strength meter is mandatory for RDF. I saved a pile of money over the commercial RDF rocket trackers back in the day but I had to invest in a Ham ticket and radios. The radios of course had dual purpose for tracking and Ham communication.

I haven't flown in years. TRA club folded when Prefect died. My wife died from Radon induced lung cancer 6 years ago. She never smoked anything combustable in her life and we didn't know the house we bought had a Radon gas problem. She had to stay home and take care of our mentally handicapped son of whom I have guardianship of (he's 30 now). The house is abated now and Radon is hardly detectable. I retired 4 years ago as running back and forth from work to check on my son was getting to be a drag. He does fine for several hours at a time though. My two small shops, garage and basement are a mess too. Haven't had a chance to get them organized.
So I'm the chief cook, bottle washer and homemaker now. So glad my mom taught me to cook as a kid and teenager as I had to take care of myself from age 21 to 31 when I was married. Gotta go and get cleaned up and go shopping now. I have a few other things I can discourse on tracking in the future.
Kurt (KC9LDH)
NAR 11583 L2
TRA 10384 "
 
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When you get your FW tracker, make sure that the battery cannot move and that every wire is completely secured. Check the connectors too... sometimes the pins may be loose. That is the #1 reason why altimeters and trackers fail at the first ejection event... things shake loose, and from that point on it's dead.

BTW, your 1 mile and 8400' altitude works out to 10,000' away... well within the 5+ miles that we have seen.
 
When you get your FW tracker, make sure that the battery cannot move and that every wire is completely secured. Check the connectors too... sometimes the pins may be loose. That is the #1 reason why altimeters and trackers fail at the first ejection event... things shake loose, and from that point on it's dead.

BTW, your 1 mile and 8400' altitude works out to 10,000' away... well within the 5+ miles that we have seen.
This is 100% correct. I'll elaborate on the 900Mhz GPS trackers a bit more. With any radio tracking device, altitude is one's friend due to the line of sight situation as far as receiving propagation is concerned. The only limitation becomes tracker output power which is not as significantly important if the rocket is "up high". Altitude is one's friend with radio propagation. Back in the day, Cris Cerving didn't recommend a Yagi receive antenna for his EggFinder products and he is technically correct. But I found 900Mhz Yagis were affordable back then and experimented a bit when his stuff first came out.
Now I didn't launch rockets to stratospheric heights but found I could point an 8 element 925Mhz Yagi antenna in the general position of a rocket with an EggFinder as I could "see" the smoke trail in a 3k flight and could get rock solid positions because I could generally see where it's at. The deal is if the rocket goes completely out of sight for the longest time, a 900 Mhz Yagi antenna might not be able to be pointed accurately to maintain the signal link. The "conewidth" of the receive antenna on 900Mhz becomes too narrow.
I've seen/tracked on a mapping laptop very high powered rockets launched with a Beeline 70cm/400Mhz/Ham Band Radio APRS stuff out of sight to 20k+. One time in the early days, the crowd was looking downwind of the prevailing ground winds on a flight. The rocket gyrated around in the upper winds aloft and when it was getting lower like 8k agl, it was well behind us and the crowd as I could see on the APRS tracking progam. I looked up from the laptop for a moment and saw the crowd looking 180 degrees the "wrong way" and had to scream, yell, cuss and swear to look 180 degrees behind them if they wanted to get a visual on the descending rocket. People looked puzzled at this swearing guy but the rocket came in view as it got lower behind all of us. I counted down the touchdown altitude at the top of my lungs as I wasn't on a P.A. system and adjusted for field elevation for AGL level when I shouted it out. Fortunately the rocket landed a safe distance behind us. People had an amazed look on their faces as they were used to looking using the ground winds for reference and RDF was the standard for the day. APRS was just coming into play and there weren't many rocket Ham radio operators at the time. Folks expected the rocket to land in front of them due to the prevailing ground winds. They were wrong. So were the vagaries of high altitude flight at least for "us" amateurs.

When I built my EggFinder stuff, I'd modify and use the best aftermarket frequency correct solution/antennas for transmitting and it was relatively cheap at the time.
I believe Cris is totally correct when flying a project that is going very high, maybe 5k or plus to use the straight receive antenna. One gets the lat/long direction via the GPS transmitter rig except if they want to experiment like I did at the time. Family stuff got in the way and I couldn't get in more flights to work with it more but one thing did stand out. With an 8 element 900Mhz Yagi antenna when one is going out to recover, put the Yagi on the receiver and one will get positions in sooner than if using a vertical. That's actually a moot point but I was satisfied that a 900Mhz Yagi could help with a difficult ground recovery as long as one knows where the final position is that came in when the rocket was 50 to 100+ feet in the air. That's to get the final position before LOS (loss of signal)
One can argue it's a moot point but if the rocket is lying in a deep furrow, the Yagi antenna might assist in getting packets plotted for recovery or if blowing across a field/launchsite. This an an example of an 8 element Yagi I used back in the day and still have. Oh to be able to fly again.

Kurt (KC9LDH)
NAR 11583 L2
TRA 10384 "
 

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I think you’re chasing the wrong problem. First problem to solve would be why you’re consistently kicking out the laundry at 10k. That right there is problematic in most recoveries.
+1 This is excellent advice to be followed.

In any problem solving situation you must find the root cause of the problem and solve that (maybe first). In your case, the problem is you are losing rockets. The root cause is not that your tracking isn't working, it is your laundry is out at 10K ft. If you go with the FW stuff and don't fix the apparent root cause, you may still lose a rocket (plus the new FW stuff).

Suggestion: While you troubleshoot the early deployment, you could use a JLCR (Jolly Logic Chute Release) set for 500-600 ft. This way, if your deployment is early you still wont' have miles to hike due to drift.

BTW, that is actually how I do it. I have a fully redundant single electronic deployment system (down to duplicating wires, switches, batteries, plus dual altimeters and dual JLCR's, etc.). I deploy a single main at apogee +1 sec. and backup fires at apogee +3sec. I haven't had any issues with Eggtimer computer/altimeter or tracking products and have had success over 10K feet and even when the chute came out, slipped out of the JLCRs, and got tangled up with the JLCR. It still drifted about a mile and I was able to walk right up to it after a short car ride.
 
Ahhhh.... Kicking out the drogue laundry at 10k is a bit high but if it's a small drogue chute to stabilize things, I don't have a problem with it. Plus if one is in a very large site and they have adequate tracking resources to go after the rocket when it's down on the ground after main chute deployment, no big deal.
Duplicating wires depends on the project. Smaller ones, there's no room. Larger ones, one can do all the duplication/backups they want to if it makes
them "feel" better. It gets ridiculous after awhile with so many "backups". Do the installation and launch low to test before getting "funky" high.
Consider soldering the wires into the terminal blocks if it's an really "extreme project" and you're a crazy a'$$ S.O.B.. Never done that as I've never gone to that extreme!!!!!! But the installation should be considered permanent and would not be easy to lift out for another project. Again, I never did two wire "thingies" into the "connection blocks" and never had an issue with recovery. Two wire and I'd think you're a stupidhead. If paranoid, use two or more altimeters if room allows,

Never had a wire rip out of terminal block but I worked to make sure the installation facilitated the wiring plan. Always thought, "What would G forces do." and never had an issue

I saw "M Plus" motors and sometimes "Ex +" projects fly on a single altimeter back in the day that were recovered fine.
Stuffing two wires into a terminal block might lead to "G" forces ripping both wires out!! Beware of this "chit".
I saw fliers with "triple altimeters" lawn dart as you say they didn't have independent power sources and they weren't
secured properly. This was a long time ago and any LSO would have nixed the rocket on inspection as it was back in the
"olden days" and now no one could get away with it.

It was so fun to fly back then when I was a neophyte and I tried to stay legal all the time. I never had a rocket denied a launch and worked liked
heck to stay legal. My rockets would fly fine but I had to use the APRS and GPS trackers to get them back! I didn't have an ATV to get'em but I got them back after a time. Had an ATV loaned to me a few times and it was much appreciated at a launch to drive out.

Until I learned to mix APCP propellant and went over to the "dark side". Now it's legal but I miss the days in the old club days mixing 25kgs. of propellant of whatever "recipe" were were making in and industrial mixer. Hand packing into casting tubes and drilling/coring the small grains outside the shop of course. It was some of the most "funnest" days of my life! Anything above 38mm of course had a "core rod". Mixers will know what I mean!

BP, fireworks? I wouldn't do that in a million years. Mixing APCP, no problem but I'm too old now though I still have the formulas and a small mixer but have no need to mix anymore.

Kurt
 
any special antennas needed on the FW ground station to get the insane tracking mileage? I never want to lose tracking again 😭😭😭. Also, don’t tell my wife 😂
I didn’t see anyone else directly answering this, so: The Featherweight GPS tracker has been used successfully at 137,000+ feet with the stock antenna at both ends of the link. Using a directional antenna on the ground station can be useful if you use a much worse antenna on the tracker side, like this 1/2” long one, and you’re planning on going over 100,000 feet.
 
Flight planning!
If you wish to go high, then at least have some idea of what the wind speed/direction profile is up to your desired altitude. Simulation with forecast multilevel winds might be useful here to give you an estimate of the possible landing point. No guarantees, but better than just launching into the unknown, particularly if you lose tracking.
Best not pack too much around your tracker. You won't get optimal radiation pattern and RF efficiency. Preferably put it in the nosecone, if possible.
 
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Beyond solving the issue of deploying the main at apogee, it seems worth while to think about why the rocket was lost only 10,000’ away (well within the tracker’s range). It might not be an Eggtimer issue. For example if the battery came loose or went dead, poor RF permeability, antenna placement, etc. Issues like this will need to be solved no matter what type of tracking is being used.
 
I didn’t see anyone else directly answering this, so: The Featherweight GPS tracker has been used successfully at 137,000+ feet with the stock antenna at both ends of the link. Using a directional antenna on the ground station can be useful if you use a much worse antenna on the tracker side, like this 1/2” long one, and you’re planning on going over 100,000 feet.
+1 This is excellent advice to be followed.

In any problem solving situation you must find the root cause of the problem and solve that (maybe first). In your case, the problem is you are losing rockets. The root cause is not that your tracking isn't working, it is your laundry is out at 10K ft. If you go with the FW stuff and don't fix the apparent root cause, you may still lose a rocket (plus the new FW stuff).

Suggestion: While you troubleshoot the early deployment, you could use a JLCR (Jolly Logic Chute Release) set for 500-600 ft. This way, if your deployment is early you still wont' have miles to hike due to drift.

BTW, that is actually how I do it. I have a fully redundant single electronic deployment system (down to duplicating wires, switches, batteries, plus dual altimeters and dual JLCR's, etc.). I deploy a single main at apogee +1 sec. and backup fires at apogee +3sec. I haven't had any issues with Eggtimer computer/altimeter or tracking products and have had success over 10K feet and even when the chute came out, slipped out of the JLCRs, and got tangled up with the JLCR. It still drifted about a mile and I was able to walk right up to it after a short car ride.
Ahhhh, I never lost a rocket with a GPS tracker in it even when I had a lawn dart. I haven't lost rockets with any GPS tracker. I had an Eggfinder in a nosecone mount in a rocket with a MAD unit. Look up a magnetic anomaly detector. Best apogee deployment out there but not popular with rocketry folks these days. The early MAD units one had to be EXTREMELY CAREFUL as there were no safety interlocks. Had to build the from kits and I ordered 4 of them as they were so cheap. Soldered them up and flew'em.

I was going to launch a rocket I thought the ematch wasn't connected "right" on the pad. When connecting up the igniter on the pad, I had second thoughts and went out during a lull in launching to check the rocket. The EggFinder was nosecone mounted. I diddled with the apogee only MAD unit as I had good luck with them as they blew the ematches/parachute charge at apogee "extremely" reliably. The terminal connector was was on the backside on a mount on the nosecone for the deployment charge and I messed with it. Lifted the NC off the BT very gently like it was a "bomb" and messed with the ematch charge. I shouldn't have done that as I missed putting one leg of the ematch wire back in due to my dimming "cataract" vision of the time and the MAD unit didn't give me a continuity warning. Folks, gimme a break as this was a long time ago just as EggFinder stuff came out. I realize now I had it setup right in the first place but dinked with it that led to a failure of sorts. Cataracts have been fixed with implants and I always carry good reading glasses now. I was too far-sighted to get the accomodating lens implants.

Rocket went up and since I messed with the ematch termimal, I missed putting one copper leg of the ematch I was using in properly. Looked around a bit and shortly found where the rocket did a "lawn dart" into the ground. It was three fin holes in the dirt and I wouldn't have found in a million years without the EggFinder GPS last position. I had it on a mapping program so it was actually easy to find the rocket's engress into the ground.

Everything was trashed of course, the M.A.D. unit and EggFinder but I at "end found it to get my reusable motor casing out of the ground!! There's nothing to blame on the EggFinder GPS as it did it's job up to the "end"!
 
Duplicating wires depends on the project. Smaller ones, there's no room. Larger ones, one can do all the duplication/backups they want to if it makes
them "feel" better. It gets ridiculous after awhile with so many "backups". Do the installation and launch low to test before getting "funky" high.

Consider soldering the wires into the terminal blocks if it's an really "extreme project" and you're a crazy a'$$ S.O.B.

Again, I never did two wire "thingies" into the "connection blocks" and never had an issue with recovery. Two wire and I'd think you're a stupidhead. If paranoid, use two or more altimeters if room allows,

Stuffing two wires into a terminal block might lead to "G" forces ripping both wires out!! Beware of this "chit".

I saw fliers with "triple altimeters" lawn dart as you say they didn't have independent power sources and they weren't secured properly.
@ksaves2, I have quoted comments you made relative to redundancy, not to debate them, but to politely suggest how you would be well served to understand how redundancy works and is implemented before making such statements.

For a good part of my career, I worked in IBM's Federal Systems Division where we designed systems for NASA, FAA, and DoD. Many of these system had dual redundancy and some had quad redundancy (e.g. the Saturn IV Instrument Ring). IOW, I have much experience in these areas. Personally, I have been making rockets for many decades, but over the last few years, got into electronic deployment for my L1 and L2 cert (and next month, the L3 flight).

Please see this post https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/altimeters-for-dual-redundant-deploy.188980/post-2650641 and follow the link in it to a detailed description of the dual redundant system design. The link contains a schematic diagram of the system.
 
Flight planning!
If you wish to go high, then at least have some idea of what the wind speed/direction profile is up to your desired altitude. Simulation with forecast multilevel winds might be useful here to give you an estimate of the possible landing point. No guarantees, but better than just launching into the unknown, particularly if you lose tracking.
Best not pack too much around your tracker. You won't get optimal radiation pattern and RF efficiency. Preferably put it in the nosecone, if possible.

Can't agree more.
That's why I developed GPS Drift Cast.
It's an excel spreadsheet extension of Rocksim or OpenRocket. Utilizing forecast data to provide potential GPS locations for landings based on the forecast winds aloft.
Make sure you find the latest revision, or use the new web version that David Bellhorn developed. Both links below.

https://www.gpsdriftcast.com/

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...iction-based-on-winds-aloft-forecasts.185800/

Dave
 
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