Lockheed Defender Build

Discussion in 'Scratch Built' started by Bruiser, Mar 29, 2019.

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  1. Mar 29, 2019 #1

    Bruiser

    Bruiser

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    Late one night not too long ago I was thumbing thru a fictional book about UFO's and Space Planes when I saw this little captioned picture. I immediately knew I needed to model this as my next rocket. I think I may have took such and interest in it because I was an aircraft mechanic on the F-117A Stealth Fighter for many, many years.

    Lockheed Defender Book Pic.jpg

    I enlisted the help of one of our most prolific designers here on the Rocketry forum. Neil helped with the basic design of the rocket and with getting it into Open Rocket even though Open Rocket did not like it.

    Here is a snip from the Open Rocket views. Sorry no cockpit on the view but there will be one :)
    Lookheed Defender Finished View 2.PNG

    So far I haven't gotten too far into it but I do hope to really get going on it next week now that the parameters are fleshed out.

    Baffle.jpg


    Thanks for reading and I hope you'll stay tuned into my flights of fantasy,
    -Bob
     
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  2. Mar 29, 2019 #2

    neil_w

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    Subscribed! :)

    (if you still can, edit the subject to be more descriptive, i.e. put the rocket name in it, or if you can't then ask a moderator)
     
  3. Mar 29, 2019 #3

    Scotty Dog

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    Love those rocket planes. Cool. What size BT ?.
     
  4. Mar 30, 2019 #4

    dhbarr

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    Oh bravo!
     
  5. Mar 30, 2019 #5

    Bruiser

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    It's based on a BT-60 body tube and it'll be right at 36 inches long.

    -Bob
     
  6. Mar 30, 2019 #6

    Nytrunner

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    You got the right guy to help!
     
  7. Mar 30, 2019 #7

    cwbullet

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    Title changed by poster request.
     
  8. Mar 30, 2019 #8

    neil_w

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    For the record: this design is almost 100% pure Bruiser. I helped with some OR stuff, but all the design goodness is from him.

    Really excited to see it come together.
     
  9. Mar 30, 2019 #9

    manixFan

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    Wow, I thought I had good google-fu but I was unable to find any references to the Defender on the web! As is typical, I went down a rabbit hole of interesting 1950's and 60's failed designs, even perusing PDF's of old books online but nothing found nothing about the Defender. Do you have any links to additional information about it or what the numerical model designation was, if it had one? Looks like a pretty cool design.


    Tony
     
  10. Mar 31, 2019 #10

    Bruiser

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    Tony,

    You know the difference between fiction and non-fiction is that fictional is an imagined (or imaginary) story and non-fiction is a true story or true facts. You couldn't find any data on the design or the fictional book because it only exists in my imagination.

    But, it could be real. There a time when I worked on the F-117A when it was a black world project, i.e. still classified Top Secret. I remember when I processed into the 4450th Tactical Group they said that we may see things up range that we could not talk about and we all had to sign non-disclosure agreements. Well I worked there for four years and to this day and I can't recall seeing anything that I have to not talk about. Maybe they did something to my memory when I left the program and went back into the regular Air Force like in the movie Total Recall. It could be that this is some memory seepage from back in the day :)

    Did you find anything interesting to model?

    -Bob
     
  11. Mar 31, 2019 #11

    Bruiser

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    Oh, and I forgot to say that Neil is being very generous with the design credit. It's true, I did come up with the original design. I contacted Neil to help me take my rough design and refine it which he was a tremendous help with (have you ever seen Nile's design thread?). In truth, we worked this design so much it evolved into a super sleek design. I was working on the paint/trim scheme for the evolved design when I realized that it had changed from the XB-70 to the Concord, you know, figuratively speaking. I didn't set out to design the Concord so I went back to the beginning and started refining my original design back to a military type space plane. The other design is put up for now, but it will emerge some day. In truth without Neil's super-duper Open Rocket skills I still be messing around on paper and Microsoft Paint

    -Bob
     
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  12. Mar 31, 2019 #12

    manixFan

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    I can't believe that I missed the 'fictional' part of the book! I think I saw the caption on the image and somehow did not closely read the paragraph above it that mentioned that it came from a fictional book on UFOs and space planes.

    In answer to your question about what I did find, this book:

    https://www.aia-aerospace.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/THE-1957-AIRCRAFT-YEAR-BOOK.pdf

    led to these two rockets:

    https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/rocket-sounding-project-farside

    https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/ramjet-research-vehicle-f-23

    Both would make pretty cool looking rockets.


    Tony

    F 23 Ramjet research vehicle:
    F-23-ramjet.jpg

    Far Side 4 stage balloon launched rocket:
    Far-side-rocket.jpg
     
  13. Mar 31, 2019 #13

    Bruiser

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    They are both very cool!

    -Bob
     
  14. Mar 31, 2019 #14

    Tobor

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    Man, that F-23 is super sweet! Maybe a future project for me. Thx for sharing.
     
  15. Apr 1, 2019 #15

    Bruiser

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    Today I was able to start assembling the Defender. I have the body tube joined by the coupler I turned into and exhaust baffle (see first post). I've applied CWF to the joint area and sanded it smooth along with an initial sanding of the tube. I'm not sure if I should CWF the whole tube right now, then glue on the wings or if I should add the wings and strakes first. I think I just answered my own question which is to CWF first which bites because I already drew all the lines on for the wings, canopy and cannon pods... Sure would be easier sanding it down before all that gets added though...

    I also placed an order for the 24mm motor mount parts and the ram-jet engine parts with eRockets this afternoon.

    Defender Body Tube.jpg

    -Bob
     
  16. Apr 1, 2019 #16

    neil_w

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    CWF first! If you only do the spirals than at least some of your pencil marks should remain after sanding, and you can reconnect the dots as it were.

    I like your BT holder. :)
     
  17. Apr 1, 2019 #17

    Bruiser

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    Who else remembers the old barber shop signs?

    Defender Body Tube CWF.jpg

    So Neil you are going to have to explain the whole reload thing to me, but you've got to keep it simple so I can digest a little at a time. So I know I can fly this with the Estes "D" and "E" motors but you had mentioned another 24mm motor that must be a reload. I've been able to figure out they make 24/40 and 24/70 cases and that there are different size "charges" you can use in them. The cases also seem to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, sometime even within a manufacturer if I am reading right. Aerotech has the RMS cases and apparently a Hobby Line case too???

    -Bob
     
  18. Apr 1, 2019 #18

    neil_w

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    No, I was talking about the single-use Aerotech E15 (aka E20) or E30. About $11 each, no hazmat, great little motors.

    Reloads are a whole other world. I know about them, but have never used them.
     
  19. Apr 1, 2019 #19

    Nytrunner

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    I am not Neil, but I fly and I know things.

    Estes D and Es are blackpowder motors.

    In Composite land we have:
    -Single Use motors by Aerotech (AT) as Neil stated
    -Hobbyline RMS in the 24/40 and 24/60 cases by AT (i believe these are non Haz)
    -Pro24 1grain, 2gr, 3gr, 6gr by Cesaronit (CTI) these are hazmat reloads unfortunately.
     
  20. Apr 2, 2019 #20

    Bruiser

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    Thanks for that info. I didn't realize that Aerotech made single use motors. I've been looking for a thread "24mm Reloads for Dummies) but I haven't found one yet :)

    -Bob
     
  21. Apr 2, 2019 #21

    Nytrunner

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    Check out csrocketry, buyrocketmotors, or wildman (heck even apogee) and go to 24mm, you'll see the stuff available at that size.

    Shoot an email and they'll be happy to tell what's needed for complete hardware or reloads. (Just ignore when they say you DEFinitely need to buy 10 reloads)
     
  22. Apr 2, 2019 #22

    neil_w

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    Quick useful bit of info: the single-use E15 and E20 are the exact same motor. Typically the E15 is sold in packs of three vs two for the E20. The E15 is usually a tad cheaper. Don’t try to understand this, I gave up long ago.

    Either of those or the single use E30 would work great in this rocket, if you want to get up there. Recommend starting with a D though.

    Actually building the rocket first would be even better. ;)
     
  23. Apr 2, 2019 #23

    Bruiser

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    "Actually building the rocket first would be even better. ;)"

    Hey, hey, hey, haven't you heard of multi-tasking? Besides, my arm has to take breaks from that thing I love more than anything else in the world--sanding :)

    So I got a little done today. As you can see the fins/wings are all cut out and all sanded to the same shape. I even sanded the leading and trailing edges of the forward fins.

    And if you remember the last picture I posted of the body tube yesterday was it covered in CWF. Not any more

    Defender Parts Layout.jpg

    I think I might be getting close to a work stoppage while I wait for my other parts to arrive. Thank goodness I can sand the leading edges of the wings and fins while I wait :) Maybe I can paper them too. I just can't glue them on until the 24mm motor mount parts arrive.

    -Bob
     
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  24. Apr 2, 2019 #24

    neil_w

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    Nice progress! Looks cool in the exploded diagram format. :)

    How are you going to glue the pods into the wings? I would have thought the wings would be two pieces. Or are you going to slot the pods and just slide them over?

    Also it looks like your grain may be in the wrong direction on the canards... they might well be small enough that it doesn't matter, especially if you paper them.
     
  25. Apr 3, 2019 #25

    Bruiser

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    I think you're right about the canards. No problem I have a fix. I am going to paper them but I'll strengthen them first. I guess I used up all my engineering brain power figuring out the wings and strakes that I just didn't have any left when I got to cutting them out. Oh, maybe it was sanding dust in my eyes from the body tube :)

    I think I am going to cut four slots in the pod tubes. First I'll slide the tube onto the wing and glue it in place with nice fillets. Then I'll apply a bead of glue to the bottom of the rudder and slide it in followed by a nice fillet.

    -Bob
     
  26. Apr 3, 2019 #26

    BABAR

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    From experience I have learned that papering does NOT fix wrong grain direction.

    They will still break with very little stress. Take the time and wood to fix it now.
     
  27. Apr 3, 2019 #27

    Bruiser

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    Crisis averted thanks to Neil's keen eyes. I was going to cut off 3/8" of the leading edge and glue on a replacement strip with the grain running in to correct direction but after Babar's post I decided to just cut new ones.

    Defender Canard Redo.jpg

    I hope to get them and the wings papered today.

    -Bob
     
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  28. Apr 4, 2019 #28

    Scotty Dog

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    Very nice job on cutting the pieces parts. I like to put filler on the whole BT. Then sand it down. It will smooth out / fill all the little "dents, dimples" in the BT. BTs are not perfectly smooth. And its quicker/ easier because you are not going round and round with the filler in the spirals. And less chance of getting fuzzies from sanding to much on the BT paper. Just a thought to consider. My old buddy "Bradycros" turned me on to that trick.;)
     
  29. Apr 4, 2019 #29

    neil_w

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    I'm gonna have to try that, 'cuz going round and round with the filler in the spirals is probably my single least favorite build task. Would be interested to see exactly how you apply a fine and even(-ish) layer that doesn't require *too* much sanding afterwards.
     
  30. Apr 4, 2019 #30

    Scotty Dog

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    You don't have to do it all at once. A couple thin coats works.And looking at the BT in this thread, there wasn't much of the BT that was not covered. How they say..YRMV ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019

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