LOC IV

[lstmysock11]

I'm not saying I did a good job documenting it, but I did build a Super DX3 for my L1. https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/blackfish-l1-super-dx3-build.163514/ There are plenty of other build threads on here to check out too. I'm more than happy to discuss if you do end up going that route. I did overbuild mine quite a bit with the idea that it would fly on L2 motors as well (not my L2 cert though)

Still, I'd double down on what others are saying. It is probably worthwhile for you to build the range of rockets before you jump into or even purchase your L1 rocket. I'd at least get comfortable flying a 29mm LOC whatever with a JLCR before trying to do it on the L1. Or dual deploy for that matter. Electronic deploy in whatever form creates a level of complexity you should ease into after your develop and hone your build skills. And if you start thinking about reloads, it is just one more thing that can go wrong. Focus on the basics of building and flying and then add in the more complex task.

Thank you very much, I am saving that thread to look over and over again. I am going to be building the micro mamba soon and then will see possibly building the Estes doorknob for something in Midpower range. Have looked at mach 1 kits for midpower kits but still trying to figure out what kits might fall into midpower.

 

[samb]

... but still trying to figure out what kits might fall into midpower.

Midpower are those rockets that use motors in the E through G range. When flying under NAR or Tripoli rules, the controller to pad minimum distance is 30 feet.

5. Launch Safety I will use a countdown before launch, and will ensure that everyone is paying attention and is a safe distance of at least 15 feet away when I launch rockets with D motors or smaller, and 30 feet when I launch larger rockets. If I am uncertain about the safety or stability of an untested rocket, I will check the stability before flight and will fly it only after warning spectators and clearing them away to a safe distance. When conducting a simultaneous launch of more than ten rockets, I will observe a safe distance of 1.5 times the maximum expected altitude of any launched rocket.

from the NAR model rocket safety code: https://www.nar.org/safety-information/model-rocket-safety-code/

FYI, there a very few G motors that fall into the high power category. You don't need to worry about them at this point. When you need to know, you'll know.

 

[Handeman]

Wow, This thread has covered a lot of ground!

Andrew, I'm looking forward to talking to you at the BattlePark launch the 11th & 12th.

I will also take this time to give my recommendations on L1 and L2 cert rockets since the subject was brought up

First the assumptions.
1. You can afford and WANT to fly motors at the level you certify at.
2. You want to fly many of the cert motors in the rocket you certify with.
3. You will fly mostly at one, or at most two, fields near you home.
4. You are flying east of the Mississippi river.

May advice is based on east coast fields, primarily BattlePark with a 16,000 ft above mean sea level waiver and a general practical limit of about 6,000 ft with DD and 2500 ft with apogee deploy, depending on wind and weather conditions.

I recommend a 3" - 4" diameter, 38mm MMT, 4 lb. - 6 lb. rocket for L1. That will allow you to fly the full range of L1 motors under most conditions and still "fly the field" and not lose your rocket. see Assumption 2.

I recommend 4" - 6" diameter, 54mm MMT, 6 lb. to 12 lb. rocket for L2. That will allow you to fly most of the L2 range of motors, J - K and some small L motors. 75mm MMT to get the full range of L motors. Go larger diameter and heavier rockets with apogee deploy. Dual Deploy is highly recommended, even if you don't use it on your cert flight.

So I don't recommend the same rocket for L1 and L2. Mostly because of assumptions #1 & 2. Putting a K motor in a L1 rocket you certified L2 with on a baby J, is usually not possible and if you can, will most likely result in the loss of the rocket. That would mean you don't have anything to fly your J-L motors with and one less rocket to fly your L1 motors with. Motors are expensive, but so are big rockets.

With all that said, it's a hobby, so do it the way you want. Enjoy, be safe, and don't be discouraged if things don't work out quite the way you planned. Just learn and move on.

 

[lstmysock11]

Wow, This thread has covered a lot of ground!

Andrew, I'm looking forward to talking to you at the BattlePark launch the 11th & 12th.

I will also take this time to give my recommendations on L1 and L2 cert rockets since the subject was brought up

First the assumptions.
1. You can afford and WANT to fly motors at the level you certify at.
2. You want to fly many of the cert motors in the rocket you certify with.
3. You will fly mostly at one, or at most two, fields near you home.
4. You are flying east of the Mississippi river.

May advice is based on east coast fields, primarily BattlePark with a 16,000 ft above mean sea level waiver and a general practical limit of about 6,000 ft with DD and 2500 ft with apogee deploy, depending on wind and weather conditions.

I recommend a 3" - 4" diameter, 38mm MMT, 4 lb. - 6 lb. rocket for L1. That will allow you to fly the full range of L1 motors under most conditions and still "fly the field" and not lose your rocket. see Assumption 2.

I recommend 4" - 6" diameter, 54mm MMT, 6 lb. to 12 lb. rocket for L2. That will allow you to fly most of the L2 range of motors, J - K and some small L motors. 75mm MMT to get the full range of L motors. Go larger diameter and heavier rockets with apogee deploy. Dual Deploy is highly recommended, even if you don't use it on your cert flight.

So I don't recommend the same rocket for L1 and L2. Mostly because of assumptions #1 & 2. Putting a K motor in a L1 rocket you certified L2 with on a baby J, is usually not possible and if you can, will most likely result in the loss of the rocket. That would mean you don't have anything to fly your J-L motors with and one less rocket to fly your L1 motors with. Motors are expensive, but so are big rockets.

With all that said, it's a hobby, so do it the way you want. Enjoy, be safe, and don't be discouraged if things don't work out quite the way you planned. Just learn and move on.

Maybe this one for level 2 but we shall see https://locprecision.com/collections/rockets-7-675-diameter, The doorknob

 

[dr wogz]

As you grow & expand, you will start to see other manufs.

Madcow & LOC are likely the "Fords / Chevys" of HPR
Then you start getting exotic: Composite Warehouse, MAC Performance, Wildman, et..
Then you get into the "big blocks / High HP": Binder Design, Giant Leap Rocketry.. (With MARSA)


The Binder Design Velociraptor for your L2!!
Binder's Excel is also a favorite for L1

 

[lstmysock11]

As you grow & expand, you will start to see other manufs.

Madcow & LOC are likely the "Fords / Chevys" of HPR
Then you start getting exotic: Composite Warehouse, MAC Performance, Wildman, et..
Then you get into the "big blocks / High HP": Binder Design, Giant Leap Rocketry.. (With MARSA)


The Binder Design Velociraptor for your L2!!
Binder's Excel is also a favorite for L1

Cool thanks for that info. Will be looking at the 3 inch version of their excel for mid power as well.

 

[dr wogz]

Cool thanks for that info. Will be looking at the 3 inch version of their excel for mid power as well.

i have one. goes high!

 

[kswing]

The Binder Design Velociraptor for your L2!!
Binder's Excel is also a favorite for L1

I used a 4" Binder Excel for both my L1 and L2 and it worked well. I still fly it occasionally. Somewhere on here is my build thread for it.

 

[lstmysock11]

I used a 4" Binder Excel for both my L1 and L2 and it worked well. I still fly it occasionally. Somewhere on here is my build thread for it.

I believe I found that, from 2016 you did a dual deply version of that rocket. How high did it go for your level 1 and 2. Last thing I want is to go too high and loose track of it and make it harder to recover. I know that is why everyone does the delay parachutes, So it wont go floating along for possibly miles from the launch site.

 

[Rob Campbell]

I believe I found that, from 2016 you did a dual deply version of that rocket. How high did it go for your level 1 and 2. Last thing I want is to go too high and loose track of it and make it harder to recover. I know that is why everyone does the delay parachutes, So it wont go floating along for possibly miles from the launch site.

You want to set the delay to deploy the chute at apogee. If you set too long a delay, the chute will deploy with the rocket at or near terminal velocity. This can shred the chute and/or zipper the rocket. You will fail your cert flight and your rocket will be essentially destroyed.

Get a simulation program and select a motor that will keep the rocket under 2,000 feet for Level 1. For level 2, get a Jolly Logic Chute Release. The motor ejection charge will separate the nose cone and push the chute out. Aerodynamic forces will keep it slow enough for the chute to safely open at the programmed altitude.

 

[kswing]

I believe I found that, from 2016 you did a dual deply version of that rocket. How high did it go for your level 1 and 2. Last thing I want is to go too high and loose track of it and make it harder to recover. I know that is why everyone does the delay parachutes, So it wont go floating along for possibly miles from the launch site.

That is my build thread. If I were to do it again today, I'd probably go with a JL Chute Release (CR) instead of dual deploy for the L1 (and maybe even the L2). I like the CR, but, if you get one try a few lower launches with it first until you get the hang of how to properly pack the chute (watch the videos) because if you don't it will either 1> open at apogee or 2> the chute won't inflate even though the CR released when it should.

If I remember correctly my L1 went to about 1400' and drifted about 500' and my L2 went to about 3700' and drifted about 2000'. Much of how far things drift depends on the winds, both at the surface and aloft, and the size of your main and drogue parachutes. In both cases I tracked visually and I had the main set to deploy at 500' and the drogue at apogee. I would also suggest getting a simulation program since it will let you play around with motors and winds and see how things will probably look. I typically use OpenRocket since it is free and it mostly works for what I need. I update my designs in open rocket to match the weight on the built rocket and then I update again after a few launches to get it to better match of the simulations to what actually happened. OpenRocket lets you set a drag/component-finish variable for each piece of the design so I adjust those until my simulation is close to what actually happened.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Are there any rocket kits that can be used for both Level 1 and 2? Plus not be super expensive along the way.

I love that you are asking so many questions. It shows a real enthusiasm and eagerness to learn. It’s going to be great for you to get out to a launch, talk to the fellow rocketeers, see the rockets, and see in person the difference between low-power, mid-power, and high-power rockets and motors. See the difference between a 2 lb rocket flying on a G and a 10 lb rocket flying on a J. It’s going to be a lot of fun, and I think you will also see that some of the questions, like this one, are getting a bit ahead of yourself!

That said, there are definitely rockets that can be used for both L1 and L2. Personally, I don’t recommend it. When you go to the launch and then see a G motor and J motor fly, I think you will probably realize that it might be kind of a leap to expect a person who has only ever flown up to a G to build a rocket for a J motor. It’s a big step up!

I think it’s better and more enjoyable to work your way up one motor class at a time once you reach midpower. You can go from A motor rockets to E almost immediately, but once you start flying mid power, it might be better to fly a few Es, then a few Fs, then build something for Gs and fly that a few times, then build something for H motors and get your L1. Enjoy the process.

That’s also a good way to test your budget and see how much you want to devote to the hobby. You mentioned not wanting it to be super expensive along the way. L2 motors start in the $70 range for just the motor! And the rocket won’t be cheap either.

Back to your question, one example of a rocket that straddles the line between L1 and L2 is the LOC Warlock. Flies great on I motors, which are L1 motors, and also does well on L2 J motors. I own one, and it’s a lot of fun. I would not recommend it for an L1 certification. But I definitely would recommend it for L2 certification. In general, these kind of rockets that straddle the certification levels are best for getting the higher cert level, not for getting two cert levels on one rocket. So when you plan for your L2, it’s a good idea to get something that can also fly on I motors, so you can fly it a few times before the cert. Same for L1. Get a rocket built for H motors that can also fly on a big G motor so you can fly it a few times before your certification flight.

 

[lstmysock11]

That is my build thread. If I were to do it again today, I'd probably go with a JL Chute Release (CR) instead of dual deploy for the L1 (and maybe even the L2). I like the CR, but, if you get one try a few lower launches with it first until you get the hang of how to properly pack the chute (watch the videos) because if you don't it will either 1> open at apogee or 2> the chute won't inflate even though the CR released when it should.

If I remember correctly my L1 went to about 1400' and drifted about 500' and my L2 went to about 3700' and drifted about 2000'. Much of how far things drift depends on the winds, both at the surface and aloft, and the size of your main and drogue parachutes. In both cases I tracked visually and I had the main set to deploy at 500' and the drogue at apogee. I would also suggest getting a simulation program since it will let you play around with motors and winds and see how things will probably look. I typically use OpenRocket since it is free and it mostly works for what I need. I update my designs in open rocket to match the weight on the built rocket and then I update again after a few launches to get it to better match of the simulations to what actually happened. OpenRocket lets you set a drag/component-finish variable for each piece of the design so I adjust those until my simulation is close to what actually happened.

Just did thrustcurve.org for motors for the binder Excel for a level 1, Looks like the H130W would be 9:1 and take the rocket to about 1400 feet. So that could work when and if the time comes

 

[Rob Campbell]

Just did thrustcurve.org for motors for the binder Excel for a level 1, Looks like the H130W would be 9:1 and take the rocket to about 1400 feet. So that could work when and if the time comes

That's an ideal L1 cert flight. You'll be able to observe the entire flight with the Mk 1 eyeball and even if you don't use a chute release, you wont have too far to walk to retrieve it.

 

[lstmysock11]

https://locprecision.com/products/lil-nuke, Just ordered this also today . Still waiting on mach1 to send out my micro mamba

 

[AstroAbaqus]

https://locprecision.com/products/lil-nuke, Just ordered this also today . Still waiting on mach1 to send out my micro mamba

Nice choice! I read all the thread since you started. I think this one has all the key feature of an HPR and will be a nice step in, but without the need to use immediately H motors. You can practice internal and external fillets, some lines management and parachute folding and recovery. Nice choice, do not forget a build thread once it arrives .

***As of 2020 all Pk-4 lil-nuke model rocket kits include slotted boosters (previously fins just glued to air frame), 3/16" tubular nylon shock cord with loops sewn (replaces elastic), starter recovery blanket and an upsized parachute (21" standard from 18"). And include radioactive decals.

 

[lstmysock11]

Nice choice! I read all the thread since you started. I think this one has all the key feature of an HPR and will be a nice step in, but without the need to use immediately H motors. You can practice internal and external fillets, some lines management and parachute folding and recovery. Nice choice, do not forget a build thread once it arrives .

***As of 2020 all Pk-4 lil-nuke model rocket kits include slotted boosters (previously fins just glued to air frame), 3/16" tubular nylon shock cord with loops sewn (replaces elastic), starter recovery blanket and an upsized parachute (21" standard from 18"). And include radioactive decals.

Thank you will try to post a build pictures. Now What are the basic recomended tools for this build or most any rocket build. Be it something like this or a high power build.

 

[AstroAbaqus]

Thank you will try to post a build pictures. Now What are the basic recomended tools for this build or most any rocket build. Be it something like this or a high power build.

Ok I am currently building my first scratch build HPR so I can give you some advices, based on my novice experience.
1. Good working space. A wide table, a light especially if you work during night.
2. A good hobby knife, with some spare blades it will work very well for cardboard rockets.
3. a L shaped profile, try to find one which offer some rigidity, 50 cm long would be enough. It will be useful to trace lines and offer a guide for your knife.
4. Epoxy (30 minutes or longer), Wood glue and CA glue (super glue)
5. Good amount of sanding paper I use 100 and 150 during the building of the rocket.
6. If you are using epoxy that needs to be mixed in volume and not in weight, some small caps with volume measurement, I am using 30ml medicine cups are cheap and allows me to pick the correct amount of resin.
7. Some mixing plastic cups and some party plates. The first one is going to be used to mix and stir the resin. Then once you are done you pour that on the plate to avoid the resin to be too close. By doing this you will avoid the resin to start to cure prematurely.
8. Gloves, Mask ff2/3 for when you sand, safety glasses.
9. Acetone to clean and degrease where you sanded or if you have resin where should not be.
10. A vacuum cleaner to collect dust especially when sanding.
11. If you are going to make holes a power drill can be handy.
12. Ah of course wood tough depressor or wood lolly stick for mixing the resin and to do the fillets.
13. LOT of paper rolls

There is for sure other stuff but honestly if you have a kit, and loc kits are great, you just need stuff to do small cutting, sanding and bonding.

PS
I know that can be a silly advice, but build your setup while you face challenges. I made some mistake by buying stuff only because I read it was useful. Buy what you need while learning and building. This will save you money and will allow you to maximise what you can do with the tool you already have.

 

[lstmysock11]

Ok I am currently building my first scratch build HPR so I can give you some advices, based on my novice experience.
1. Good working space. A wide table, a light especially if you work during night.
2. A good hobby knife, with some spare blades it will work very well for cardboard rockets.
3. a L shaped profile, try to find one which offer some rigidity, 50 cm long would be enough. It will be useful to trace lines and offer a guide for your knife.
4. Epoxy (30 minutes or longer), Wood glue and CA glue (super glue)
5. Good amount of sanding paper I use 100 and 150 during the building of the rocket.
6. If you are using epoxy that needs to be mixed in volume and not in weight, some small caps with volume measurement, I am using 30ml medicine cups are cheap and allows me to pick the correct amount of resin.
7. Some mixing plastic cups and some party plates. The first one is going to be used to mix and stir the resin. Then once you are done you pour that on the plate to avoid the resin to be too close. By doing this you will avoid the resin to start to cure prematurely.
8. Gloves, Mask ff2/3 for when you sand, safety glasses.
9. Acetone to clean and degrease where you sanded or if you have resin where should not be.
10. A vacuum cleaner to collect dust especially when sanding.
11. If you are going to make holes a power drill can be handy.
12. Ah of course wood tough depressor or wood lolly stick for mixing the resin and to do the fillets.
13. LOT of paper rolls

There is for sure other stuff but honestly if you have a kit, and loc kits are great, you just need stuff to do small cutting, sanding and bonding.

PS
I know that can be a silly advice, but build your setup while you face challenges. I made some mistake by buying stuff only because I read it was useful. Buy what you need while learning and building. This will save you money and will allow you to maximise what you can do with the tool you already have.

A L shape profile? What could I use for that?

 

[Rocketjunkie]

5 min epoxy is plenty. It is stronger than the wood and paper parts. You can build a LOC kit in a couple of hours with 5 min epoxy. Actually, you can build a LOC kit with wood glue. It's also stronger than the parts but does need a better fit. Build rocket, prep with a G500. (Cant get them any more ) There were a LOT of interesting motors before the time of certification. Now it's earned it's paint.

 

[AstroAbaqus]

A L shape profile? What could I use for that?

When you have to draw line on a tube it will helps you to keep a straight line. You can use even the door frame method which works fine but it can be useful also in future.

 

[lstmysock11]

5 min epoxy is plenty. It is stronger than the wood and paper parts. You can build a LOC kit in a couple of hours with 5 min epoxy. Actually, you can build a LOC kit with wood glue. It's also stronger than the parts but does need a better fit. Build rocket, prep with a G500. (Cant get them any more ) There were a LOT of interesting motors before the time of certification. Now it's earned it's paint.

Now with wood glue and CA glue what is the secret to keep the dam bottle from getting destroyed? Each time I would use them and if it sat around for a while next thing the entire bottle would have cured inside the container. Yes the bottle was closed, Anyone else have this happen and how do you stop it from happening.

Fyi I do have Bob Smith 30 min epoxy and have Rocketpoxy on the way too

 

[lstmysock11]

When you have to draw line on a tube it will helps you to keep a straight line. You can use even the door frame method which works fine but it can be useful also in future.

Is there some type of small tool I can get to be able to do that?

 

[thzero]

Use of a L piece of aluminum can work to mark lines too.

 

[Rob Campbell]

Is there some type of small tool I can get to be able to do that?

Aluminum angle iron from your local hardware store.

 

[dr wogz]

Each time I would use them and if it sat around for a while next thing the entire bottle would have cured inside the container. Yes the bottle was closed, Anyone else have this happen and how do you stop it from happening.

Put it in teh fridge... Seriously.. in the fridge. it's activated by humidity.. and the fridge is the least humid "room" in your house..

 

[Rocketjunkie]

CA will harden over time once it's opened. I don't use a lot so I just get the tiny 2 or 3 gram tubes. I don't have problems with wood glue but if it becomes unusable, just buy more. It's cheap, less than the cost of a pack of C motors.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

Now with wood glue and CA glue what is the secret to keep the dam bottle from getting destroyed? Each time I would use them and if it sat around for a while next thing the entire bottle would have cured inside the container. Yes the bottle was closed, Anyone else have this happen and how do you stop it from happening.

CA will harden over time once it's opened. I don't use a lot so I just get the tiny 2 or 3 gram tubes. I don't have problems with wood glue but if it becomes unusable, just buy more. It's cheap, less than the cost of a pack of C motors.

 

[David_Stack]

Andrew;

Try this: https://spacegrant.carthage.edu/live/files/5646-crl21l2lpresentationfinalpdf

In the Beginer and Education forum there is a post dedicated to links for helpful information, that is pulled from one of those posts. You may want to devote some time to reading through that Sticky…

 

[rdrown]

When he says L shaped metal he is actually meaning angle iron. About 18 inch long . Side legs should be about 1 inch each in width. Aluminum is the best.