LOC IV

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lstmysock11

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If you get that I'd suggest using the 3/16 launch lug that they also include. The micro rail buttons look to be a smaller size than the standard 1010 buttons, so, they probably won't work on the standard rails. I'm pretty sure BattlePark doesn't have micro sized rails and I don't recall seeing them at NOVAAR, but, I wasn't looking that closely so they may have them. Also, most launches will let you bring and use your own launch pad as long as you connect into their controller.
I do not have my own launch pad. Where would one get a launch pad with micro rail setup like that?
 

David_Stack

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Mach 1’s micro buttons are sized to fit a 10mm MakerBeam. There are no commercial launch pads available that I am aware of which are sold with that rail.

You would likely need to purchase the rail/beam, then find a way to adapt it to a stand to serve as the base (like a camera tripod, light stand, etc).

Do a search here of the forums looking for micro beam, it may turn up examples of what others have built.

Easiest approach is to do as was suggested, and simply build the rocket with the supplied launch lug; then you can use a standard launch rod of the appropriate diameter.
 

boatgeek

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I do not have my own launch pad. Where would one get a launch pad with micro rail setup like that?
Probably the easiest thing would be to buy a length of micro rail and tap a piece of 1/4" or 3/16" rod into the bottom. You can then chuck the rail into any launch pad made for a suitable sized rod. Most clubs will swap out rods (especially if you help!).
 

lstmysock11

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I believe will just stick with the launch lug and call it a day. Too much to try to get a rail to fit the mini buttons and make it into my own launch pad. Too much and no gain for the trouble.
 

lstmysock11

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Are there any rocket kits that can be used for both Level 1 and 2? Plus not be super expensive along the way.
 

boatgeek

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Are there any rocket kits that can be used for both Level 1 and 2? Plus not be super expensive along the way.
Any 4” kit with a 38mm motor mount will do L1 and L2. You might need to be a little bigger diameter if you want to stay under a low-ish waiver.
 

David_Stack

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Are there any rocket kits that can be used for both Level 1 and 2? Plus not be super expensive along the way.
Andrew;

Define "super expensive"... What is affordable to one individual may be out of reach of another.

Your initial posts to the forum inquired about a LOC IV to allow you to obtain your L1 cert. Subsequently it appeared that you came to decide that flying the rocket (or any rocket) on 38mm motors would be too costly, and you began inquiring about Estes rockets and other Low-power options. Now you are back looking for a rocket capable of being used for both a L1 and L2 certification.

A quick search of Chris's Rocket Supplies shows that an Aerotech "H" impulse reload is going to cost you approximately $40 per flight, not counting the cost of the hardware, and it only goes up from there (an Aerotech "J" reload in 38mm is on the order of $80 per flight, and will require different hardware than that of the "H" motor).

Apogee Rockets/Apogee Components web site allows you to shop rocket kits by 'genre', many of the other manufacturer web sites offer you the ability to filter their rocket offerings based on body tube diameter. Level 1 certification requires that you fly an "H" or "I" impulse motor, Level 2 is "J", "K", or "L". Look for references to those impulse criteria in the model rocket description. This is one aspect of the hobby that is not rocket science...

Model rocketry is multi-faceted, with a variety of options. You can fly low-power models seeking to extract every last bit of performance from those smaller motors, you can build models which are representative of actual rockets, futuristic space vehicles, rocket gliders, etc. and of course high-power rocketry. Bottom line is that the hobby is what YOU make of it. Decide what interests you, what YOU can afford, and then use the resources at your disposal (and your time) to investigate and pursue those aspects.
 

lstmysock11

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Andrew;

Define "super expensive"... What is affordable to one individual may be out of reach of another.

Your initial posts to the forum inquired about a LOC IV to allow you to obtain your L1 cert. Subsequently it appeared that you came to decide that flying the rocket (or any rocket) on 38mm motors would be too costly, and you began inquiring about Estes rockets and other Low-power options. Now you are back looking for a rocket capable of being used for both a L1 and L2 certification.

A quick search of Chris's Rocket Supplies shows that an Aerotech "H" impulse reload is going to cost you approximately $40 per flight, not counting the cost of the hardware, and it only goes up from there (an Aerotech "J" reload in 38mm is on the order of $80 per flight, and will require different hardware than that of the "H" motor).

Apogee Rockets/Apogee Components web site allows you to shop rocket kits by 'genre', many of the other manufacturer web sites offer you the ability to filter their rocket offerings based on body tube diameter. Level 1 certification requires that you fly an "H" or "I" impulse motor, Level 2 is "J", "K", or "L". Look for references to those impulse criteria in the model rocket description. This is one aspect of the hobby that is not rocket science...

Model rocketry is multi-faceted, with a variety of options. You can fly low-power models seeking to extract every last bit of performance from those smaller motors, you can build models which are representative of actual rockets, futuristic space vehicles, rocket gliders, etc. and of course high-power rocketry. Bottom line is that the hobby is what YOU make of it. Decide what interests you, what YOU can afford, and then use the resources at your disposal (and your time) to investigate and pursue those aspects.

More like do high power every now and again, get more flights in with mid and low power rockets. Only so many times at one launch could afford 80 dollars a flight. But mid and low power can fly a lot more.
 

dr wogz

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A number of do this:

5 flights in the day:
1 'L1' flight'
1 'L2' flight
3 or 4 LPR flights.

to make it [about] a $100 - $150 day.. (How much is a ski lift ticket? or ..)

Some of us may only fly once during the day: making it an L2 flight.. Its not uncommon for the L2 people to take 2 hrs prepping their flight + 1 hr retrieving it..


Of course, big events (like LDRS or NSL) do tend to 'break teh bank' with a few flyers! :D $600 spent over 3 days with a vendor: $400 on motors, $200 on kits & parts!
 

Buckeye

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Are there any rocket kits that can be used for both Level 1 and 2? Plus not be super expensive along the way.
Define "super expensive"... What is affordable to one individual may be out of reach of another.

Your initial posts to the forum inquired about a LOC IV to allow you to obtain your L1 cert. Subsequently it appeared that you came to decide that flying the rocket (or any rocket) on 38mm motors would be too costly, and you began inquiring about Estes rockets and other Low-power options. Now you are back looking for a rocket capable of being used for both a L1 and L2 certification.
Dude, David_Stack is correct. You have been all over the map in this thread and others. From micro-buttons on 18mm rockets to L2. You said you bought an Estes Doorknob, then you didn't. Only you can define "expensive", not us. You have been given many suggestions and vendors to research, yet you don't seem to heed the advice. We can't do your shopping for you. Pause the questions for a while, pick a lane, and go fly some rockets.
 

Rob Campbell

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Are there any rocket kits that can be used for both Level 1 and 2? Plus not be super expensive along the way.
The Apogee/Madcow Torrent and the Madcow Super DX3 are both L1/L2 Capable. I recommend keeping it simple and not going to dual deployment for your L2 cert. Instead, use either motor ejection or altimeter ejection with motor back-up and a Jolly Logic Chute Release. This will cut the risk of losing the rocket and save you a long walk to retrieve it.
 

lstmysock11

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Dude, David_Stack is correct. You have been all over the map in this thread and others. From micro-buttons on 18mm rockets to L2. You said you bought an Estes Doorknob, then you didn't. Only you can define "expensive", not us. You have been given many suggestions and vendors to research, yet you don't seem to heed the advice. We can't do your shopping for you. Pause the questions for a while, pick a lane, and go fly some rockets.
Yes been all over the place as people have lead me in different directions as I asked questions. Plus I also came to see I could only afford so many L1 and L2 launches at once and Midpower and low power would give a lot more flights for a lot less money. I asked about micro buttons since they come on a low power kit I am interested in building is all. Had no idea of the group I joined has rails to use them but it seems they do not and just to use launch lugs.

Yes I have I picked a direction a few days ago.
 

lstmysock11

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The Apogee/Madcow Torrent and the Madcow Super DX3 are both L1/L2 Capable. I recommend keeping it simple and not going to dual deployment for your L2 cert. Instead, use either motor ejection or altimeter ejection with motor back-up and a Jolly Logic Chute Release. This will cut the risk of losing the rocket and save you a long walk to retrieve it.
The madcow super DX3 would that be the 38mm or the 54mm motor mount. It seems to come in both sizes. Thinking like this one for high power and if can at some point also do L2 with a 38mm would go that way.
 

dr wogz

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As previously suggested:

Get some low power kits.
Fly at the club, see what it's all about. Actually talk to a few flyers..
Pick up & read Stine's 'Handbook of model rocketry', then pick up & read Canepa's book 'Modern High powered rocketry 2'.

that should answer just about all your questions..

Don't expect L1 / L2 to be a cheap venture.. don't try to do it on the cheap, and don't try to get your L2 the day after your L1..
 

lstmysock11

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As previously suggested:

Get some low power kits.
Fly at the club, see what it's all about. Actually talk to a few flyers..
Pick up & read Stine's 'Handbook of model rocketry', then pick up & read Canepa's book 'Modern High powered rocketry 2'.

that should answer just about all your questions..

Don't expect L1 / L2 to be a cheap venture.. don't try to do it on the cheap, and don't try to get your L2 the day after your L1..
This is exactly what I am doing! Ordered the micro mamba and planing on building that Will check out those books.
 

boatgeek

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The madcow super DX3 would that be the 38mm or the 54mm motor mount. It seems to come in both sizes. Thinking like this one for high power and if can at some point also do L2 with a 38mm would go that way.
If you're wanting to save money on a couple of flights per year, probably the 38mm. The 38mm DMS reloads are about the same price as the RMS, and you don't have to buy the hardware. There are more DMS options for 38mm than 54mm in the J range, and the 38mm ones appear to be a bit cheaper, too. You can fly 38mm H DMS motors for your L1 without an adapter, or you can adapt down to 29mm.

When you have a little more disposable income, you can build a rocket with a 54mm motor mount and get the full range of L2 options. Plus everything that dr. wogz said.
 

lstmysock11

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If you're wanting to save money on a couple of flights per year, probably the 38mm. The 38mm DMS reloads are about the same price as the RMS, and you don't have to buy the hardware. There are more DMS options for 38mm than 54mm in the J range, and the 38mm ones appear to be a bit cheaper, too. You can fly 38mm H DMS motors for your L1 without an adapter, or you can adapt down to 29mm.

When you have a little more disposable income, you can build a rocket with a 54mm motor mount and get the full range of L2 options. Plus everything that dr. wogz said.
What exactly is involved with reloads? I have only used the cheap Estes motors that are one time use.

I did order those two books suggested to me
 

David_Stack

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What exactly is involved with reloads? I have only used the cheap Estes motors that are one time use.

I did order those two books suggested to me
Andrew;

Said it before, saying it again... Use the Search feature available here in the Forum. In addition there is a whole propulsion section here within TRF.

Apogee has the following articles outlining how composite motors work:


How to assemble a reloadable motor:


and similar content.

There is a WEALTH of information out there in the wilds of the internet and in this forum. You need to begin to show some initiative to research for yourself, rather than simply standing there with your hand out waiting for someone to give you a fish. Learn to fish, and then begin asking specific questions ('In this video I saw the presenter do 'x', but I'm not sure why; can someone help me understand?')
 

lstmysock11

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Finding out about charge assist with a altimeter. I found this one company that makes the 3 gram mounted charge wells and the altimeter wiring kits


Mad cow has https://www.madcowrocketry.com/altimeter-bay-4-airframe/ and https://www.madcowrocketry.com/removable-altimeter-bay-4-airframe/, this second one seems to be out of stock.

Not sure on what altimeter

https://jollylogic.com/products/chuterelease/ for delayed chut release. Not sure what else I would need besides E matches and black powder. Guess with a sim you figure out when to have the charges go to make sure the rocket deploys at the right time.

Am I missing anything. Also did not really find but one build video on the super dx3 and more information on dual deploy then anything else
 

Banzai88

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Finding out about charge assist with a altimeter. I found this one company that makes the 3 gram mounted charge wells and the altimeter wiring kits


Mad cow has https://www.madcowrocketry.com/altimeter-bay-4-airframe/ and https://www.madcowrocketry.com/removable-altimeter-bay-4-airframe/, this second one seems to be out of stock.

Not sure on what altimeter

https://jollylogic.com/products/chuterelease/ for delayed chut release. Not sure what else I would need besides E matches and black powder. Guess with a sim you figure out when to have the charges go to make sure the rocket deploys at the right time.

Am I missing anything. Also did not really find but one build video on the super dx3 and more information on dual deploy then anything else
Lots of us use rubber glove fingers or centrifuge vials to build charges in as well. I also use cpvc caps to house the charge so things stay put.

Avionics bays differ, but I prefer the coupler/stiffy/internal lids design of an avionics bay from LOC over the madcow design. Always works out stiffer, slides/separates better, and seals better in my experience.

As for sims like OR and RS, you simply set when you want the drogue or main to deploy and the software handles the rest. Same with the JLCR, but the software sometimes has issues working properly, and there are 'tricks' to make it work properly for your sim.

For build videos of either a cardboard L1/L2 or a fiberglass L2, Apogee has more than a few GREAT videos that shows basic construction step by step.
 

boatgeek

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Finding out about charge assist with a altimeter. I found this one company that makes the 3 gram mounted charge wells and the altimeter wiring kits


Mad cow has https://www.madcowrocketry.com/altimeter-bay-4-airframe/ and https://www.madcowrocketry.com/removable-altimeter-bay-4-airframe/, this second one seems to be out of stock.

Not sure on what altimeter

https://jollylogic.com/products/chuterelease/ for delayed chut release. Not sure what else I would need besides E matches and black powder. Guess with a sim you figure out when to have the charges go to make sure the rocket deploys at the right time.

Am I missing anything. Also did not really find but one build video on the super dx3 and more information on dual deploy then anything else
Jolly Logic Chute Release doesn't require any black powder or charge wells, which is part of its charm/utility. You use the included rubber bands to bundle up your parachute, and it releases the chute at the specified altitude. You need to use motor eject and/or another altimeter event to separate the rocket at apogee.
Pluses: No consumables required, including black powder, easily adaptable to smaller rockets down to 38mm.
Minuses: Probably a little higher upfront cost, harder to make it redundant, takes some effort to learn how to pack your chute well. Watch the videos and practice before your cert flight.

Altimeter-based dual deploy doesn't really require anything fancy. You can get a relatively cheap altimeter (Missileworks RRC2+ is a great option, or Eggtimer Quark if you have a decent soldering iron) that will do everything you need to start. The charge wells can be as simple as copper pipe caps from the hardware store, or you can just hang charges in glove fingers down into the rocket body. I've done both, and both work fine. You may be able to save some money by buying the coupler and bulkheads, then making your own sled.
Pluses: Probably cheaper upfront, though maybe not if you buy the whole AV bay, altimeter plus motor eject gives redundancy for the most important event (separating at apogee), flexible for adding full redundancy later
Minuses: More stuff to deal with and buy, plus you have to supply black powder for every flight.

For basic L1 and L2 cert flights, I wouldn't worry a lot about full redundancy. If you start flying K and L, I think it becomes more important.
 

lstmysock11

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Lots of us use rubber glove fingers or centrifuge vials to build charges in as well. I also use cpvc caps to house the charge so things stay put.

Avionics bays differ, but I prefer the coupler/stiffy/internal lids design of an avionics bay from LOC over the madcow design. Always works out stiffer, slides/separates better, and seals better in my experience.

As for sims like OR and RS, you simply set when you want the drogue or main to deploy and the software handles the rest. Same with the JLCR, but the software sometimes has issues working properly, and there are 'tricks' to make it work properly for your sim.

For build videos of either a cardboard L1/L2 or a fiberglass L2, Apogee has more than a few GREAT videos that shows basic construction step by step.
https://locprecision.com/products/electronics-bays-dual-deployment?variant=39778637283519, Is this the av bay from loc your talking about. Will this fit the mad cow super dx3?
 

kswing

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I would suggest that you before you buy a rocket to try for Level 1 you come out to a launch and see what other folks are doing. If you come out to BattlePark you will meet many folks (myself included) who have rockets of various sizes that are both single and dual deploy and will be glad to talk with you. Most folks start out with just motor ejection since dual deploy adds quite a bit of complexity. Also, many folks start out doing HP with just heavy-duty cardboard since it is cheaper, lighter and easier to work with than fiberglass and can handle at least through L2 if used properly. I've done many high power dual deploy flights, but, I've also done quite a few high power flights using just motor ejection and a Jolly Logic Chute Release to delay chute opening.
 

lstmysock11

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I would suggest that you before you buy a rocket to try for Level 1 you come out to a launch and see what other folks are doing. If you come out to BattlePark you will meet many folks (myself included) who have rockets of various sizes that are both single and dual deploy and will be glad to talk with you. Most folks start out with just motor ejection since dual deploy adds quite a bit of complexity. Also, many folks start out doing HP with just heavy-duty cardboard since it is cheaper, lighter and easier to work with than fiberglass and can handle at least through L2 if used properly. I've done many high power dual deploy flights, but, I've also done quite a few high power flights using just motor ejection and a Jolly Logic Chute Release to delay chute opening.
I am planing on that just researching information. I have yet to buy a kit for level 1, I have purchased the micro mamba kit and epoxy and stuff like that to build that kit. But that is only like a 28 dollar kit with a streamer and not even a parachute.
 

dr wogz

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Many of us build our own AV /E-Bays, as we see fit.

Will it fit? likely, but all manufs. have a slight variation between them.

And as suggested, do a search, you'll find many a thread on the subject!



this thread is a good start..


and this one!

 

NateB

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I agree with Kswing, I'd check out the club first and fly a few low and mid power rockets before committing to the expense of an L1 project.

If you like Loc, the Loc Photon has everything in the box and includes launch lugs and rail buttons. With a 24mm motor mount, you can fly single use black powder or composite D and E motors and use reloadable hardware when you're ready for that step.


If you want something bigger, the Loc Park Flyers are good options for mid-power kits


You said you ordered a Mach 1 Micro Mamba. I don't have thst one, but I have built the Mach 1 Exiter and several of their BT50, BT55 and BT60 sized kits. I love the small fiberglass rockets. If you prefer to work with Fiberglass, you can't go wrong with those kits. My BT20 and BT50 sized kits came with launch lugs and rail buttons so you can use either or both depending on your needs.
 

Budro0

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Finding out about charge assist with a altimeter. I found this one company that makes the 3 gram mounted charge wells and the altimeter wiring kits


Mad cow has https://www.madcowrocketry.com/altimeter-bay-4-airframe/ and https://www.madcowrocketry.com/removable-altimeter-bay-4-airframe/, this second one seems to be out of stock.

Not sure on what altimeter

https://jollylogic.com/products/chuterelease/ for delayed chut release. Not sure what else I would need besides E matches and black powder. Guess with a sim you figure out when to have the charges go to make sure the rocket deploys at the right time.

Am I missing anything. Also did not really find but one build video on the super dx3 and more information on dual deploy then anything else
I'm not saying I did a good job documenting it, but I did build a Super DX3 for my L1. https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/blackfish-l1-super-dx3-build.163514/ There are plenty of other build threads on here to check out too. I'm more than happy to discuss if you do end up going that route. I did overbuild mine quite a bit with the idea that it would fly on L2 motors as well (not my L2 cert though)

Still, I'd double down on what others are saying. It is probably worthwhile for you to build the range of rockets before you jump into or even purchase your L1 rocket. I'd at least get comfortable flying a 29mm LOC whatever with a JLCR before trying to do it on the L1. Or dual deploy for that matter. Electronic deploy in whatever form creates a level of complexity you should ease into after your develop and hone your build skills. And if you start thinking about reloads, it is just one more thing that can go wrong. Focus on the basics of building and flying and then add in the more complex task.
 
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