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LEUP Magazine Question

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bigT

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As another BAR flying MPR, I thought I would call the local ATF Office for the low down on getting a LEUP. And I am now far more confused over the regs than before, of course. But here is the first issue I cant seem to get clarified so I thought I would ask if anyone had faced a similar problem. I have an outdoor steel storage building 80 feet from an inhabited building however it has a wooden floor structure. I would be purchasing an approved Type 4 magazine with double locks and all. The agent I spoke to seemed to indicate that my storage building would be required to meet the same specs as the magazine itself. Sort of a magazine within a magazine less the red paint on the outside. I know that the agent's opinion is all important. Has anyone else encountered a similar problem? I would rather not pour a concrete pad and move the structure if I can avoid it.
 

UhClem

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Start by reading the regulations on construction of Type 4 magazines:

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/...cess.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/27cfr555.210.htm

Understand it and require the agent point out where it requires that the storage building must meet the same requirements as the magazine before agreeing.

He will not be able to.

First read and understand the regulations, then deal with the BATFE.

You can read the April 2003 version of the regulations at: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_03/27cfr555_03.html . This includes all of the changes from the Safe Explosives Act and the BATFE has not made any changes since then although there are changes that may occur later this year. One of the pending changes is to require 1/2 inch shackles on padlocks.

The only mention of locking requirements for the storage building is in connection with a relaxing of the lock requirements on the magazine if the room is secure:

27 CFR 555.210 (b)(4) Locks. Each door is to be equipped with
(i) two mortise locks;
(ii) two padlocks fastened in separate hasps and staples;
(iii) a combination of a mortise lock and padlock;
(iv) a mortise lock that requires two keys to open; or
(v) a three-point lock.
Padlocks must have at least five tumblers and a case-hardened shackle of at least 3/8 inch diameter. Padlocks must be protected with not less than 1/4 inch steel hoods constructed so as to prevent sawing or lever action on the locks, hasps, and staples.
Indoor magazines located in secure rooms that are locked as provided in this subparagraph may have each door locked with one steel padlock (which need not be protected by a steel hood)
having at least five tumblers and a case-hardened shackle of at least 3/8 inch diameter, if the door hinges and lock hasp are securely fastened to the magazine. These requirements do not apply to magazine doors that are adequately secured on the inside by means of a bolt, lock, or bar that cannot be actuated from the outside.



I have never been able to figure out exactly what "secure rooms that are locked as provided in this subparagraph" requires. I think it is referring to all of 27 CFR 555.210(b)(4) which requires the fancy locks. Which makes much more sense than having single unhooded padlocks on the room door and magazine.

The Table of Distances does not apply to indoor magazines. See 27 CFR 555.206.
 

shockwaveriderz

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BigT:

obviously your ATF person is clueless....not unusal for the ATF



You will be required to get a variance from the ATf to place your Type 4 magazine in this shed of yours...

The first step is to download a MSDS sheet on Aerotech;s website and find out WHO your local fire dept marshall/head is and get in writing his ok... The ATf will NOT allow the variance unless your local AHJ (authority having jurisdiction, in this case youe local fire district Chief)

NFPA 1127: High Power Rocketry

This section deals with motors over 62.5 grams, here is the important stuff on storage requirements:

Section 4.19: Storage of High Power Rocket Motors, Motor Reloading Kits, and Pyrotechnic Modules.

4.19.1: High power rocket motors, motor reloading kits, and pyrotechnic modules shall be stored at least 7.6 m (25 ft) from smoking, open flames and other sources of heat.



4.19.2: Not more than 23 kg (50 pounds) of net propellant weight of high power rocket motors, motor reloading kits, and pyrotechnic modules subject to storage requirements of 27CFR 55 shall be stored in a Type 3 or Type 4 indoor magazine.



4.19.2.1: The indoor magazine shall be painted red and the top shall bear the following words in white letters at least 76mm (3 in) high: EXPLOSIVES – KEEP FIRE AWAY



4.19.2.2: The indoor magazine shall not be located in a residence.



4.19.2.3: The indoor magazine shall be permitted to be located in a detached garage or out building.



4.19.2.4: The indoor magazine shall be permitted to be located in an attached garage of a single-family residence where approved by the authority having jurisdiction and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/revrule/rules/2002-3.htm

ATF will approve variances to store explosives in a residence or dwelling only upon certain conditions including, but not limited to, receipt of a certification of compliance with State and local law, and documentation that local fire safety officials have received a copy of the certification

Notice 4.19.2.3 and 4.19.2.4


the "authority having jurisdiction(AHJ)" referenced here is your local Fire department fire chief.... There may be both city and county fire regulations....

Get your local AHJ to OK it and the Feds will also OK it....

Finally I would check State law to see if you might need to get a State Explosives Permit.....some states specifically denote that APCP is an explosive......So before you do Federal, you do Local, then State and then Federal.....

There are other Tenneess rocketeers in here that would know more about that ....

I just got through looking at the Tenneesse Code and I can find no references that APCP is considered an exploisve thus requiring any state explosives permit....

Tennessee is a NFPA1 state which means it adheres to the rules and regulations in NFPA 1122/1125 and 1127 .......Your State Fire Marshall is responsible for regulation of these......

You might also want to get a copy of NFPA 1127 from http://www.nfpa.org for your own reference and knowledge...

good luck
 

bigT

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Thank you for the information. Nothing like dealing with the federal bureaucracy. LOL
 

el chubbo

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What is the latest on the "limited" use permits? I have no garage or "outbuilding" in which to place a magazine.

Also, it is my understanding that (even with my L1 cert) I would not be able to purchase a HP reload even on the field at a major launch....say LDRS.... correct?

I may have to go cluster for a while.... :(
 

UhClem

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Re: limited use permits

The BATFE has dropped the old limited permit (good for one purchase only) and now has the new Limited User Permit. The Limited User Permit is identical to the regular permit except for:

1) Inital fee of $25 (good for one year) and annual renewal of $12. The regular permit is good for three years and the fees are $100 inital and $50 renewal

2) Strictly limited to in-state purchase.

3) Cannot transport interstate.

4) Only 6 purchases per year (controlled by coupons you get with the permit).

You must meet the same requirements for paperwork and storage as the standard permit by either having your own magazine or arranging for contingent storage in someone elses magazine.

You must have a permit in order to purchase regulated explosives. Some individuals have decided that you can have a permitted person purchase the explosives and supervise a non-permittee in its use. I am not convinced that the BATFE sees it that way. Short of an official ruling from the BATFE, there is no sure answer.

The status of "Easy Access" reloads is variable. Some vendors are requiring a permit for purchase and some aren't. Until the changes in NPRM 968 become official (Nov. 2004, maybe) this is open for interpretation. The BATFE sees it one way, the rocket community sees it another.
 

el chubbo

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I am going to have to locate someone with a farm (I live in Kansas - no shortage here) who will be willing to lease me a small bit of space....

Can the magazine be located on property NOT owned by the LEUP applicant?

If so, it would seem reasonable that a number of members of a club could chip in and purchase a magazine and - as long as each member had the proper LEUP - that magazine could serve to meet the storage requirements of all....

off the subject......I wonder how many rocketeers have moved to hypertek types in lieu of this LEUP process...

Thanks for answering my questions so completely....

TRF rocks! (dude!)
 

UhClem

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You can locate the magazine on someone elses property. Strangely enough, they can own it, have keys for it, and yet not have to be listed as a responsible person. Very wierd but see what the BATFE says on this issue in the "scenario FAQ" at: http://www.atf.gov/explarson/safexpact/index.htm
 

Zippy

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......I wonder how many rocketeers have moved to hypertek types in lieu of this LEUP process...
I don't know but I'm considering it for the future. Start up costs have kept me on a diet of AP for the meantime. If the current legal climate for AP continues to degrade I'll start buying laughing gas equiptment piece by piece untill I've got it all. I'm not going to panic though and will continue to buy AP rounds from dealers who don't yet require a leup for as long as I can. The HazMat fee hurts though.
 

Hospital_Rocket

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OK tou cannot keep the magazine in your garage (if attached) or basement.

Is there any reason (I can't find one) It can't be weathertight and kept on a small concrete pad in your back yard?
 

llickteig1

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Al,

In most cases you CAN place an indoor magazine in an attached garage if all the applicable guidelines are met and you get approval from your AHJ (city/county fire marshall). That has become a popular solution as it is generally the easiest with which to comply. The clarification of the attached garage variance, "ATF Ruling 2002-3" is referenced in shockwaveriderz' post above and clearly states that you must get approval from your local AHJ. You can not put a magazine in your basement.

You can have a stand-alone magazine on your property, but it must comply with the much more stringent requirements of an outdoor magazine.

You should thoroughly read the all of the applicable ATF regulations covering storage magazines. shockie has summarized the NFPA items well, but it is your obligation to read the entire applicable ATF and NFPA regulations to ensure that you understand your compliance requirements.

HTH, --Lance.
 
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