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ChrisVG

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Hey all! I plan to apply for an LEUP, and I am trying to identify a suitable magazine. The BATF Orange Book indicates that I can use a "box" as an outdoor storage magazine, provided that it meets all of the specs. I have a decent sized piece of property here in Tampa, FL that will allow me to place a storage box over 75 feet from a residence. I don't want anything big, so I was planning to mount a military surplus ammo can to a concrete slab among some bushes in the yard. Click here for some inexpensive samples.

The way I see it (which is, I realize, meaningless), if a box is water-tight and approved by the military to store high-explosives like grenades, it would surely be good enough to store AP reloads. I would love to hear from anyone with experience in this area.

I know that you can apply for a variance so that you can store AP in an attached garage, but I think I would rather store them out in the yard just the same. As far as I can tell, Florida has adopted NFPA 1122 rules for AP storage. Does anyone in Florida have experience with this? I want to make sure that my storage will be suitable before I cough up the $$ for the permit.

Thanks in advance!!!!

Chris
 

Rocketman248

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Check out the Big Daddy Project webpage. They are all from Florida, and i'm sure at leat on of them have a LEUP. There is contact info at the bottom.

Click here.
 

ChrisVG

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Thanks for the tip! I love this hobby!!!
 

bobkrech

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Chris

A simple ammo box won't cut it for either outdoor or indoor LE storage. You need a Class 4 magazine. You can find a picture of one at https://www.magnumrockets.com/magmag.html The price is typical for this size magazine

I would build a small yard shed with a proper lock and put 1 or more Class 4 magazines in it.

Before you do anything you should review the laws: Federal, state and local first. You will need a permit from your local fire marshal or police chief as well as the feds.

You can get most of the information from the the NAR, Tripoli and ARSA websites for information on how to apply for a LEUP and download a copy of the LEUP application form and the orange book from the BATFE site.

Bob Krech
 

ChrisVG

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Bob,

The BATF Orange Book describes a type 4 magazine as ". . . a building, igloo, or "Armytype structure," tunnel, dugout, box, trailer, or a semitrailer or other mobile magazine. Outdoor magazines are to be constructed of masonry, metal- covered wood, fabricated metal, or a combination of these materials. Foundations are to be constructed of brick, concrete, cement block, stone, or metal or wood posts. If piers or posts are used, in lieu of a continuous foundation, the space under the building is to be enclosed with fire- resistant material. The walls and floors are to be constructed of, or covered with, a nonsparking material or lattice work. The doors must be metal or solid wood covered with metal. "

This thread demonstrates that it is possible to modify something so that it meets BATF requirements. Other posts to TRF talk about folks that used modified toolboxes for their magazines and were approved. I figure that a grenade box would be a great place to start. :D

The ammo box would have to be slightly modified to meet BATF orange book rules, that is for certain. The rules do not specify the dimensions for an outdoor magazine, so I don't believe that you would need to erect a large structure. I don't want to erect a shed on my property just to store a small quantity of propellant. I just want a box large enough to store AP for myself and some buddies. That's the kind of guy I am! :cool:

I am also waiting for a call back from the State Fire Marshall's office regarding local regulations. You can't even complete the LEUP application without doing that.

Thanks for your input!!!!
 

eugenefl

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Originally posted by ChrisVG

<SNIP>
I don't want to erect a shed on my property just to store a small quantity of propellant. I just want a box large enough to store AP for myself and some buddies. That's the kind of guy I am! :cool:
<SNIP>
Thanks for your input!!!!
Well, no one said anything about building a fallout shelter under your house! :D

BTW, I am one of Chris's buddies that will get to store stuff in his magazine. (I will also apply for the non-storage LEUP once he gets the ball rolling.) So, you guys with some knowledge make sure you help him out because I need to get started in HPR!
 

bobkrech

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This thread demonstrates that it is possible to modify something so that it meets BATF requirements. Other posts to TRF talk about folks that used modified toolboxes for their magazines and were approved. I figure that a grenade box would be a great place to start.
Chris

It's a sad fact of life that our toys are expensive, and unless we get legislative or judicial relief from the BATFE's opinion on APCP, it's going to get a lot more expensive.

I don't see anyway you could make that ammo box meet BATFE specs for a price much lower than an approved commercial magazine. That Greenlee 1332 box you referenced costs about $160 and weights about 90 pounds. It can be easily converted into an indoor Class 4 magazine, for which if it kept in a room where access is controlled and locked, you only need 1 $40 1/2" padlock type lock on your magazine. Cost is still $200 + the cost of the garage.

If you don't have a locked structure like a garden shed or something similar that you can store your magazine in, the magazine is going to need 2 $40 locks, and will probably have to be bolted to a concrete pad so it can't be easily moved. I think in that case you would need a Greenlee 2142 150 pound box at about $390, and you still would need a type 4 magazine to transport your motors to the launch site unless you want to transport such a large box.

Bob Krech NAR 78096 SR
Member CMASS and NAR S&T
 

KermieD

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If going the indoor route, however, the garage/shed must be windowless and meet the same lock requirements as the box. Otherwise, you still need 2 locks on the box.
 

ChrisVG

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Originally posted by bobkrech
. . .I don't see anyway you could make that ammo box meet BATFE specs for a price much lower than an approved commercial magazine. That Greenlee 1332 box you referenced costs about $160 and weights about 90 pounds. It can be easily converted into an indoor Class 4 magazine, for which if it kept in a room where access is controlled and locked, you only need 1 $40 1/2" padlock type lock on your magazine. Cost is still $200 + the cost of the garage.

If you don't have a locked structure like a garden shed or something similar that you can store your magazine in, the magazine is going to need 2 $40 locks, and will probably have to be bolted to a concrete pad so it can't be easily moved. I think in that case you would need a Greenlee 2142 150 pound box at about $390, and you still would need a type 4 magazine to transport your motors to the launch site unless you want to transport such a large box.
Bob,

Man, do I value your input! :)

I was planning on bolting the box to a concrete pad so that it would meet the requirement of being theft resistant. The locks will be a tad expensive, but I will indeed proce all of my options.

Thanks again!!! :D
 

ChrisVG

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Great news! I just spoke to the nicest government employee in the world! She is an agent at the local BATF office here in Tampa, and she is very familiar with LEUPs and model rocket motors.

She indicated that there is a strong possibility that I will be able to get a variance so that I can keep a Type 4 magazine in my attached garage. She was extremely helpful, urging me to call her anytime I have questions. She even volunteered to come out to my home and inspect my magazine before I applied for the LEUP!!! Now that's your tax dollars at work! :)

She also told me that many rocket hobbyists in this area have used modified ammo cans that were approved. She even suggested that I could make the interior of the ammo box non-sparking by painting it with an epoxy-based paint. I just happen to have access to some!

The agent also stated that I have to notify the local fire prevention office that I am storing AP in my garage in the event of an emergency. I spoke to the state fire marshal's office and they confirmed her statement.

I just picked up an 81mm ammo can for $11.00, and I am now going to look for suitable hooded-locks. I should easily be able to complete the magazine for under $100. The best part is that I can take the magazine with me out to the range.

Thanks to all for your feedback! More to come!!! :D
 
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