3D Printing Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

[cwbullet]

Another adhesive option:

• 3D Printer Adhesive Glue by Layerneer - It is listed as a thermal dynamic coating that works like magic allowing parts to stick at hot and release when cooled. It dries fast and non tacky once dry. I get several prints per application till I have to reapply and it comes in a handing applicator. It comes off with soal and water. I rate this stuff just a little better than glue sticks and on par with the hair spray.

 

[John Kemker]

Another adhesive option:

• 3D Printer Adhesive Glue by Layerneer - It is listed as a thermal dynamic coating that works like magic allowing parts to stick at hot and release when cooled. It dries fast and non tacky once dry. I get several prints per application till I have to reapply and it comes in a handing applicator. It comes off with soal and water. I rate this stuff just a little better than glue sticks and on par with the hair spray.

How easy is it to apply?

 

[cwbullet]

It is a foam applicator on the end of the bottle and it is exceptionally easy to apply.

 

[OzHybrid]

I have absolutely no adhesion problems printing PLA on the Creality magnetic bed. It works like a charm, but I'm thinking about changing to a Wham-Bam to print ABS and other high-temp filaments. Does anyone have any experience with it?

ABS can be a difficult material to print. It has higher shrinkage than PLA. This can be up to 3% so you want to minimise any temperature changes it gets during printing or it will effectively shrink itself off the bed. I've had lots of expensive balls of string thinking it was all ok and leaving it to print overnight.

For ABS you really need a fully enclosed printer. Print on glass, I use IKEA 320x320 mirror tiles. They're cheap and work great. make a thin solution of ABS in acetone. I use a 1" house painting brush to apply 2 thin coats. You need a 105C bed temperature. This is above the ABS transition temperature.
235C extruder head temp. You can enclose your printer in a simple frame with bubble wrap as a starting point. Make sure the room is warm and stays at that temperature for the duration of the print. Watch out for your steppers getting too hot though.

Make sure your machine is fully calibrated and bed levelled. Including calibrating the extruder. ( use your manual settings and move 50mm in each direction. Use a vernier to check. Do same with filament) Measure the exact diameter of the filament you're using and put it in your slicer. Print some test cubes and measure them. Ideally your extruder should be a double drive unit. ABS is hard and slippy. You may need to increase your spring pressure on the extruder. I ended up using a 2nd spring inside the first to get the pressure needed for consistent driving of the filament. If your filament slips ,you'll wear a groove in it that your extruder is unlikely to get past. If it's slipping you'll see fine powder at the drive wheel. This will happen most during the first couple of layers. Setting the nozzle zero point will help. You want it set to the sheet of paper space that's generally recommended.

The next bit is the one that really helped me a lot with ABS. Here it is......

if you have a 0.4 nozzle say, change your print width to 0.5 in your settings. This increases the squish factor between layers. Now the down side to this is that your surface finish may go down slightly. But it's not much.
Use brim as adhesion setting in the slicer.

That's it. Other than all the other things that are specific to your environment.

Good luck.
TRA12957

 

[cwbullet]

ABS can be a difficult material to print. It has higher shrinkage than PLA. This can be up to 3% so you want to minimise any temperature changes it gets during printing or it will effectively shrink itself off the bed. I've had lots of expensive balls of string thinking it was all ok and leaving it to print overnight.

For ABS you really need a fully enclosed printer. Print on glass, I use IKEA 320x320 mirror tiles. They're cheap and work great. make a thin solution of ABS in acetone. I use a 1" house painting brush to apply 2 thin coats. You need a 105C bed temperature. This is above the ABS transition temperature.
235C extruder head temp. You can enclose your printer in a simple frame with bubble wrap as a starting point. Make sure the room is warm and stays at that temperature for the duration of the print. Watch out for your steppers getting too hot though.

Make sure your machine is fully calibrated and bed levelled. Including calibrating the extruder. ( use your manual settings and move 50mm in each direction. Use a vernier to check. Do same with filament) Measure the exact diameter of the filament you're using and put it in your slicer. Print some test cubes and measure them. Ideally your extruder should be a double drive unit. ABS is hard and slippy. You may need to increase your spring pressure on the extruder. I ended up using a 2nd spring inside the first to get the pressure needed for consistent driving of the filament. If your filament slips ,you'll wear a groove in it that your extruder is unlikely to get past. If it's slipping you'll see fine powder at the drive wheel. This will happen most during the first couple of layers. Setting the nozzle zero point will help. You want it set to the sheet of paper space that's generally recommended.

The next bit is the one that really helped me a lot with ABS. Here it is......

if you have a 0.4 nozzle say, change your print width to 0.5 in your settings. This increases the squish factor between layers. Now the down side to this is that your surface finish may go down slightly. But it's not much.
Use brim as adhesion setting in the slicer.

That's it. Other than all the other things that are specific to your environment.

Good luck.
TRA12957

Thanks. I have had no problem with this adhesive:

• 3D Printer Adhesive Glue by Layerneer - It is listed as a thermal dynamic coating that works like magic allowing parts to stick at hot and release when cooled. It dries fast and non tacky once dry. I get several prints per application till I have to reapply and it comes in a handing applicator. It comes off with soal and water. I rate this stuff just a little better than glue sticks and on par with the hair spray.

 

[OzHybrid]

Thanks. I have had no problem with this adhesive:

• 3D Printer Adhesive Glue by Layerneer - It is listed as a thermal dynamic coating that works like magic allowing parts to stick at hot and release when cooled. It dries fast and non tacky once dry. I get several prints per application till I have to reapply and it comes in a handing applicator. It comes off with soal and water. I rate this stuff just a little better than glue sticks and on par with the hair spray.

Hi Chuck,

I've had NO success with glue sticks for ABS at 105 bed temp. PLA no problem...

From your link.
Currently unavailable.( I also checked availability in US)
We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock.
Says it's available.


But at that price it would have to be significantly better than glass and ABS solution. It might be. However glass tiles work for me , are a lot less expensive and reusable.
Fortunately glass tiles and abs in acetone are readily available if you want to print ABS today.

The spec looks good but says"Do not apply BED WELD directly to aluminum bed surfaces. First, place a layer of Kapton tape over the aluminum bed surface and apply BED WELD on top of the Kapton. "

You're then limited by Kapton. At the bed temperatures for ABS 105-110C Kapton adhesive lets go slightly.

I think that if an individual can get the ABS slush on glass method to work for them, it's the best/ cheapest/ easiest/ most readily available solution. Exotics may work, but availability and price are a downer for non commercial printers who have to pay themselves and cannot pass the cost on to the client.

 

[cwbullet]

Hi Chuck,

I've had NO success with glue sticks for ABS at 105 bed temp. PLA no problem...

Sorry to hear that. I must have just sold out in Australia. Still in stock in the US. I use it moistly when I have difficuky to stick parts that have a lot of supports.

 

[cwbullet]

Currently unavailable.( I also checked availability in US)
We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock.
Says it's available.

Odd is shows availble in US for me.

How about Magigoo? It works very well also.

 

[cwbullet]

Because I had to bring it up, lets talk Magigoo. Magigoo is an all-in-one 3D printing adhesive which makes it easy to adhere and release parts from a heated build plate of an FDM 3D printer. Prodiced by Thought3D, Magigoo is a group of products that work similar to the other adhesives. The original formula for Magigoo works with commonly 3D printed plastics such as PLA, ABS, HIPS, PETG, TPU. It is sold in over 25 countries as an alternative to glue sticks, sheets, and sprays. I have never tried the sprays.

Formulations available:

• Magigoo All-in-One
• Magigoo Pro PC (Polycarbonate)
• Maggoo Pro PA (Nylon)
• Magigoo Pro PP (Polypropylene)
• Magigoo Pro Flex

I have not tried to flex but the rest are awesome. I would recommend starting with the All-in-One and see how it works for you. They have a few more products that are more specialized. I may write about them as I try them.

 

[OzHybrid]

Chuck has taken on a big topic. Bed adhesion is one of those topics where there is no single completely right answer. The right answer is the summation of multiple different things. All of which, if you don't get them spot on will lead to a little bit less adhesion. So attention to detail is important. Consistency in what you do is important. That first layer is critical.

You have to find what works for your environment and printer. And budget. I've not tried the bed preps suggested by Chuck, but I will. When I can get some. But either of those suggestions are going to cost an extra Au$0.50 per print for me. That's not massive. But it makes a difference.

I print exclusively ABS at present. I like it. You can join it using dissolved ABS in acetone as a glue. You can paint it.
If you want to print ABS below will work for me. Probably you too. I'll post my full Cura settings shortly.

It takes 3 ingredients to make a cup of coffee. Water, coffee and milk. There's a lot of places do bad coffee. We're working with a lot more ingredients and hoping to make the perfect cup every time. Anyone that's successful at this should make a fantastic cup of coffee. I look forward to having a coffee with Chuck if I get over to Georgia. It should be fantastic.

ABS can be a difficult material to print. It has higher shrinkage than PLA. This can be up to 3% so you want to minimise any temperature changes it gets during printing or it will effectively shrink itself off the bed. I've had lots of expensive balls of string thinking it was all ok and leaving it to print overnight.

For ABS you really need a fully enclosed printer. Print on glass, I use IKEA 320x320 mirror tiles. They're cheap and work great. make a thin solution of ABS in acetone. I use a 1" house painting brush to apply 2 thin coats. You need a 105C bed temperature. This is above the ABS transition temperature.
235C extruder head temp. You can enclose your printer in a simple frame with bubble wrap as a starting point. Make sure the room is warm and stays at that temperature for the duration of the print. Watch out for your steppers getting too hot though.

Make sure your machine is fully calibrated and bed levelled. Including calibrating the extruder. ( use your manual settings and move 50mm in each direction. Use a vernier to check. Do same with filament) Measure the exact diameter of the filament you're using and put it in your slicer. Print some test cubes and measure them. Ideally your extruder should be a double drive unit. ABS is hard and slippy. You may need to increase your spring pressure on the extruder. I ended up using a 2nd spring inside the first to get the pressure needed for consistent driving of the filament. If your filament slips ,you'll wear a groove in it that your extruder is unlikely to get past. If it's slipping you'll see fine powder at the drive wheel. This will happen most during the first couple of layers. Setting the nozzle zero point will help. You want it set to the sheet of paper space that's generally recommended.

The next bit is the one that really helped me a lot with ABS. Here it is......

if you have a 0.4 nozzle say, change your print width to 0.5 in your settings. This increases the squish factor between layers. Now the down side to this is that your surface finish may go down slightly. But it's not much.
Use brim as adhesion setting in the slicer.

That's it. Other than all the other things that are specific to your environment.

Good luck.
TRA12957

 

[cwbullet]

Chuck has taken on a big topic. Bed adhesion is one of those topics where there is no single completely right answer. The right answer is the summation of multiple different things. All of which, if you don't get them spot on will lead to a little bit less adhesion. So attention to detail is important. Consistency in what you do is important. That first layer is critical.

You have to find what works for your environment and printer. And budget. I've not tried the bed preps suggested by Chuck, but I will. When I can get some. But either of those suggestions are going to cost an extra Au$0.50 per print for me. That's not massive. But it makes a difference.

I print exclusively ABS at present. I like it. You can join it using dissolved ABS in acetone as a glue. You can paint it.
If you want to print ABS below will work for me. Probably you too. I'll post my full Cura settings shortly.

It takes 3 ingredients to make a cup of coffee. Water, coffee and milk. There's a lot of places do bad coffee. We're working with a lot more ingredients and hoping to make the perfect cup every time. Anyone that's successful at this should make a fantastic cup of coffee. I look forward to having a coffee with Chuck if I get over to Georgia. It should be fantastic.

You are correct about the fact that each print surface is different. In my first post and the others in the thread, I indicated that settings are the key and that is especially true for Z offset or Live Z. Some filaments are tough to stick even with the right setting. On each of Prusa MK3S, I use different settings and products,

I will use 3 of them to illustrate the point:

1. My Bear Prusa had a mid-age PEI textured coated sheet. ABS sticks very well and needs no assistance. I use a little hair spray to assist with adhesion on,y with the most difficult to stick products. Rarely is anything needed.
2. My First Prusa has a very old PEI Sheet that PEI Textured sheet that has been worn a little over time and tends over adhere to the bed and requires precious time to remove ABS prints. I don't need help to get item to stick, but a little glue stick or Magigoo helps prevent me for having to spend as much time with a plastic razor blade.
3. The last printer has the youngest bed. Almost pristine PEU Textured surface has minimal damage. Prints come off without an issue and only the most difficult filament requires assistance. I can print ABS on it with any glues what so every.

I agree with the slurry of ABS but it is not recomended on the PEI beds. Hence why to you are also correct that you must individualize the approach you take to bed adhesives.

 

[OzHybrid]

So I think we need to go back to basics. What material are we printing. What are the bed types known to work for that material. What are the surface preps known to work for that bed/ material. Ambient air temperature, enclosed printer or not, type of printer,(moving to a core xy printer( drop bed ) was a massive difference) Leveling, bed temperature, nozzle size, layer thickness, nozzle/ bed gap/zero point, initial print temp, initial wall thickness, number of bottom walls, bed adhesion type( brim, skirt, raft( and the size of those)), initial print speed. These are the paramaters that create bed adhesion. This is the difficult part.
Print wall thickness, number of bottom, inside, outside, top walls , infil pattern, % infil, wall width, print bed temp, print nozzle temp, flow rate , speed create the structure and strength of a part. This is the "easy" part.
And let's not forget the slicer we choose and complexity of the object we're printing.

A big spreadsheet of everything may be the way to go. I'm not sure that's a complete answer as at some point you have to print something yourself.

 

[cwbullet]

So I think we need to go back to basics. What material are we printing. What are the bed types known to work for that material. What are the surface preps known to work for that bed/ material. Ambient air temperature, enclosed printer or not, type of printer,(moving to a core xy printer( drop bed ) was a massive difference) Leveling, bed temperature, nozzle size, layer thickness, nozzle/ bed gap/zero point, initial print temp, initial wall thickness, number of bottom walls, bed adhesion type( brim, skirt, raft( and the size of those)), initial print speed. These are the paramaters that create bed adhesion. This is the difficult part.
Print wall thickness, number of bottom, inside, outside, top walls , infil pattern, % infil, wall width, print bed temp, print nozzle temp, flow rate , speed create the structure and strength of a part. This is the "easy" part.
And let's not forget the slicer we choose and complexity of the object we're printing.

A big spreadsheet of everything may be the way to go. I'm not sure that's a complete answer as at some point you have to print something yourself.

I do not disagree and I am slowly going to discuss these topics as I research them. This is a learning thread for all of us.

 

[cwbullet]

Are there alternatives to external adhesives?

With many prints and filaments, you can get away without an adhesive. It is possible to print a 'brim' or "raft" with your print. Both of these items will promote better bed adhesion by increasing the surface area in contact with the bed. The goal is to increase adhesion through this surface area.

The "brim" is a thin platform around your print that ensures successful adhesion. A "raft" is a thin layer that prints us printed on top instead of directly on the build plate itself. Both are simply removed and thrown away.

I still recommend using a bed adhesive to protect the build plate. Some ABSs and PC stick too well to some build plates and you can damage the plate removing them. I have had to use razor blades to carefully remove brims and rafts. Some filaments are too sticky while others just won't stick at all and you do not know until you print them.

 

[cwbullet]

Filament adhesive properties:

Each filament has adhesive properties that are different and remembers that each bed is different. A filament will stick different from glass to textured PET to Garolite. For this exercise, we are going to assume a single utopian surface and focus solely on the properties of filaments. I am going to discuss the adhesive properties of PLA, PETG, flexibles, ABS, and PC. I am putting them in order of adhesiveness - flexibles we can argue, but this is my findings.

• PLA or Polylactic Acid is a relatively forgiving filament to having the wrong Z offset. No all of them are the same and they are hydration dependent (although not has bad as PC or Nylon). It will stick to the bed without a heated bed but 50-60 degrees improve adhesion. I personally have never needed a bed adhesive for any PLA. It adheres strong and comes off with a flex of my print bed. I have had a few rolls of Hatchbox PLA that I could not get to stick that worked fine with dehydration. I have never had a roll that was overly adhesive. I consider PLA the perfect starter filament.
• PETG is a Glycol Modified version of Polyethylene Terephthalate. It is semi-rigid and is less forgiving to a low or high z offset. Very low warping and readily sticks to the bed with the right Z. PETG is my favorite filament because it mixes the Ease of PLA with heat tolerance of ABS. It can have a tendency, in some brands, to stick too much. 3DXSTAT ESD PETG, although based on one roll, to be exceptionally adhesive to the point that I could not get prints off one textured bed. If it sticks too much or too little, check your Z. Depending on the brand, smooshing it to the bed overly aggressively can lead to waving and poor adhesion or difficulty removing the print. In general, it is easy to remove PETG prints, but just not as easy as PLA.

I will discuss more filaments soon.

 

[jazzviper1]

2 words "Glue stick".

 

[cwbullet]

2 words "Glue stick".

Posted that above. I like glue sticks btu that not the easiest thing to get a good level surface. That being said, it works for some but not all filaments. I find it to a be a must with polycarbonate. I have used several brands of glue sticks. I recommend:

• UHU Glue Sticks. I like that they go on glue but clear when drying.
• Pritt Glue Sticks. They work much better than Elmers.

Glue sticks are cheaper than many of the made for 3d printing adhesives. Your results may vary.

 

[cwbullet]

I am testing a new bed surface for adhesion this weekend.

Dobestfy 9.25 x 9.25: It feels and looks like a Bondtech knockoff. I will post back and let you know how it performs.