Let's discuss our feelings on discontinuing public masking

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Kelly

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The key item here is "randomized control trials". To have a randomized control trial, you would need to get a raft of volunteers, randomly distribute them into mask and no-mask groups, and then see how many from each group get sick.
Furthermore, you usually want this to be 'double-blind', meaning neither the subjects nor the researchers (initially) know whether you're in the control group or not. Obviously this is nearly impossible with masks.

So, it reiterate the important part: Just because CDC says it is not aware of any "randomized control trials" does not mean there is no evidence, and it does not mean there is no science, supporting masks. There is plenty.
 

cbrarick

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iFirst, I do believe covid was bad, people died, and up to 20% may have long lasting effects.
I took the whole thing very seriously and got the vaccine as soon as I could.

The CDC had it wrong from the beginning.
COVID has FINALLY been recognized by the CDC as aerosol transmission - that only took until May 7, 2021. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/sars-cov-2-transmission.html
News flash: This wasn't news as of 3 April 2020 - a year earlier https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02786826.2020.1749229

then you were lied about the ability of anything short of a real mask helping: https://doi.org/10.1016/s0196-6553(05)80143-9 they note surgical masks are 75% to 25% effective at preventing aerosols from penetrating. That would make home-made masks basically make-work and useless.
Social distancing? a sneeze was studied https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmicm1501197 and droplets were out to 8 meters away! Now think aerosols......

We've recently debunked outside transmission rates of covid https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/11/briefing/outdoor-covid-transmission-cdc-number.html

The CDC was wrong so many ways.... Fauci is a publicity whore. How many people got sick because of their mis-information.

The good news is that we're getting out of it. I went to my fire department, and for the first time, drilled without a mask since this started. It was great! You really don't know how difficult it is to do hard work with that darn mask. I once went into do overhaul with a air pack on because it was way easier then a mask. The few "non-believers" stayed home as we knew who they were and they still have to mask up......
 

Devin Batten

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Note that the CDC letter does list a bunch of other resources addressing mask effectiveness.
The article I also cited broke the 4 links down. And even supplied alternative sources for mask effectiveness. For sanity sake there's no substantial to minimal findings for the effectiveness of masks. And improper wearing of masks may increase the risk for transmission.
 

cbrarick

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The article I also cited broke the 4 links down. And even supplied alternative sources for mask effectiveness. For sanity sake there's no substantial to minimal findings for the effectiveness of masks. And improper wearing of masks may increase the risk for transmission.
yea! CDC Guidance on respiratory droplets. Now all junk as we're onto the real science of aerosol transmission.....
 

Back_at_it

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I know many here will not agree and I might make some angry but here goes. Before anyone goes off on a political tangent or calls me a conspiracy theorist, I assure you that is not me. Personally couldn't wait for the mask mandate to be lifted. I bought into the social distancing thing as it made sense. This is the same thing you do during flu season. Try to keep your distance and you don't get sick. I don't like people anyway so this was a plus for me. Now I have a reason to avoid you. The mask thing made sense for about two weeks when they told you that you needed an N95.

The moment they said that any face covering works just as well, they lost me. I don't mean to pop anyone bubble but if you believe your non-N95 store bought mask or gator is doing anything, I ask you to do one thing. Go out and do some wood working or sand some drywall then go blow your nose. Even wearing two of them won't stop you from ingesting drywall dust and those partials are huge by comparison.

I'm not going to knock someone for wanting to wear a mask. If that makes you feel safer then by all means go for it. I do find it kinda strange when I see someone alone in their car with the windows rolled up wearing a mask.

I was out in Moab UT a couple weeks back and we saw someone alone in a canoe on the Colorado River with no one around for literally thousands of feet except or those of us passing by in cars wearing a mask. I do also know of at least two people that are fully vaccinated and still wearing masks in their own home when they live alone.

Living here just outside of Chicago, I know that we are pretty close to the last places to open up. Many businesses stopped enforcing masks months ago, some as early as May 2020 and honestly I don't think I know of a place that still requires them. I can tell you that I will respect the wishes of a business if they choose to require masks. I won't do business with them but I will politely thank them and walk away. It is their choice.

Someone brought up travel. I've never stopped flying, I've never stopped traveling for work. I've been in front of clients pretty much everyday since this thing started. I've had no choice as I was required to work. I have never been concerned with getting sick on an airplane, taxi, Uber or bus and I'm looking forward to doing a cruise as soon as they open them back up. I do take precautions. I use the hand sanitizer if it's available. I don't carry it with me but I'll use if it's sitting there. I wash my hands frequently. But then again I do this all the time because I drink a lot of water and have to use the bathroom a lot :)

I know there are people on here that are going say I'm nuts. But I look at it this way. In the past 18 months or so, I've probably been face to face with 1500 or more people and the only thing anyone wants to talk about is Covid so the subject comes up ALL THE TIME. In all of those conversations, I honestly have never met anyone that told me they have gotten sick enough to even be treated by a doctor from it. None of these people mentioned relatives or friends that were significantly sick from it. I don't know anyone that even knows someone that has been sick enough to be hospitalized from it.

I've been exposed to it a dozen times or more including being quarantined after spending 13 hrs. driving back with someone that obviously had cold symptoms in a Prius. That person tested positive the next day but neither of us passenger got it. I've been tested for the virus 3 times and checked for the antibodies twice. All were negative.

I'm happy to see this coming to a close so we can get back to the real normal.
 
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Marc_G

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I know many here will not agree and I might make some angry but here goes. Before anyone goes off on a political tangent or calls me a conspiracy theorist, I assure you that is not me. Personally couldn't wait for the mask mandate to be lifted. I bought into the social distancing thing as it made sense. This is the same thing you do during flu season. Try to keep your distance and you don't get sick. I don't like people anyway so this was a plus for me. Now I have a reason to avoid you. The mask thing made sense for about two weeks when they told you that you needed an N95.

The moment they said that any face covering works just as well, they lost me. I don't mean to pop anyone bubble but if you believe your non-N95 store bought mask or gator is doing anything, I ask you to do one thing. Go out and do some wood working or sand some drywall then go blow your nose. Even wearing two of them won't stop you from ingesting drywall dust and those partials are huge by comparison.

I'm not going to knock someone for wanting to wear a mask. If that makes you feel safer then by all means go for it. I do find it kinda strange when I see someone alone in their car with the windows rolled up wearing a mask.

I was out in Moab UT a couple weeks back and we saw someone alone in a canoe on the Colorado River with no one around for literally thousands of feet except or those of us passing by in cars wearing a mask. I do also know of at least two people that are fully vaccinated and still wearing masks in their own home when they live alone.

Living here just outside of Chicago, I know that we are pretty close to the last places to open up. Many businesses stopped enforcing masks months ago, some as early as May 2020 and honestly I don't think I know of a place that still requires them. I can tell you that I will respect the wishes of a business if they choose to require masks. I won't do business with them but I will politely thank them and walk away. It is their choice.

Someone brought up travel. I've never stopped flying, I've never stopped traveling for work. I've been in front of clients pretty much everyday since this thing started. I've had no choice as I was required to work. I have never been concerned with getting sick on an airplane, taxi, Uber or bus and I'm looking forward to doing a cruise as soon as they open them back up. I do take precautions. I use the hand sanitizer if it's available. I don't carry it with me but I'll use if it's sitting there. I wash my hands frequently. But then again I do this all the time because I drink a lot of water and have to use the bathroom a lot :)

I know there are people on here that are going say I'm nuts. But I look at it this way. In the past 18 months or so, I've probably been face to face with 1500 or more people and the only thing anyone wants to talk about is Covid so the subject comes up ALL THE TIME. In all of those conversations, I honestly have never met anyone that told me they have gotten sick enough to even be treated by a doctor from it. None of these people mentioned relatives or friends that were significantly sick from it. I don't know anyone that even knows someone that has been sick enough to be hospitalized from it.

I've been exposed to it a dozen times or more including being quarantined after spending 13 hrs. driving back with someone that obviously had cold symptoms in a Prius. That person tested positive the next day but neither of us passenger got it. I've been tested for the virus 3 times and checked for the antibodies twice. All were negative.

I'm happy to see this coming to a close so we can get back to the real normal.
You've missed the fundamental point of everyone masking during the pandemic: the cloth masks work fabulously for SOURCE CAPTURE of droplets from infected people who probably don't realize they are infected. They don't do all that much to protect the wearer, instead they protect others by trapping a lot of the infectious material right at the source: the mouth and nose of an infected person. It took a while for the guidance to realize this was the way to make universal masking work.

Your example of wearing cloth mask then do drywalling (or, for rocket people, go paint a rocket) isn't an apples to apples challenge. Infectious material coming out of people's noses and mouths is mostly attached to droplets, which are easily caught by the masks. The droplets quickly dry in the air in the room, a healthy mask wearer of a cloth mask doesn't get much protection from the now dry and very tiny "droplets turned aerosol particles." However the spike proteins are very sticky and cloth masks grab them like sponges, so cloth masks aren't zero protection against the aerosolized particles.

So, the masking approach using common cloth masks depends on the infected people... who don't know who they are... wearing masks. So everyone had to wear one.

Now, with vaccines out there, fully vaxxed people are at very low risk of either getting infected or spreading the disease, so we get to ditch the masks. Non-vaxxed folks still should be wearing them. I'm enjoying being mostly back to normal as a fully vaccinated person. Going to the store now (unmasked) and taking the wife out to dinner tomorrow night (unmasked). Tonight, picking up dinner at a takeout place that still requires masks for everyone entering, and I will wear the mask without a complaint for the 3 minutes I'm in there.
 
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MidOH

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Seriously, is ANYONE planning on getting onto a cruise ship, ever again? Does nobody remember the poor folks marooned on cruise ships for weeks and even months at the start of the pandemic, unable to go home?
I got something on a cruise ship. But I blame the airline, not the ship. Was only a few days after the ship that was quarantined.

Was before any masking rules, or anything. Before we knew to watch out for anything or do anything. Two of us were sick mid week. Lasted 3 days. No big deal. Didn't even miss a thing on my itinerary. Was weaker than regular flu by a mile. I think I had my temp checked when I returned to the States, or before I forget.

Cruise line and airline stocks never dropped to my ''buy'' threshold. Bummer. It's already recovering. I'll cruise again. But not as long as 3rd world countries are freaking out about Covid. And I don't want my temperature taken 5 times a day by scanners dripping diseased goo and forehead grease. Don't want nasal swabs for breakfast either.

As for the masks. I masked up when I visited businesses that politely asked me to. Outdoors I never masked up at all. And since I was ''essential'', the curfew and travel restrictions didn't apply. At work, people masked up in the office when moving about, and could unmask at their work station. I was able to freely travel with the thousands of New York plated cars I saw everywhere. Apparently New Yorkers are completely immune to emergency mandates czar and can pretty much do anything they want to.. I'm a field tech, rarely in the office.
 

Marc_G

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I was never one terribly interested in taking a cruise. I can stand being on a plane for some number of hours going from point A to point B, but being cooped up in a ship for long periods of time isn't my cup of tea. And then there are the cases where they turned into giant incubators and forced detention zones early in the pandemic, with people unable to get off or return home. And even before the pandemic, frequent stories of norovirus (GI distress) outbreaks scared me off.

Nope. I recognize that no travel is perfectly safe, be it down the street or across the world... but cruises are off my list.

@MidOH , you have an absolutely AWESOME avatar!
 

MidOH

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Being cooped up in the ship is fine. Worse part of cruising is getting in line every day to get off and on the ship. Slow moving line, and you know that your taxi is going to ditch at any moment.

And of course the plane ride. I'm OK sitting on the plane. I'm OK getting to the airport. I'm OK with TSA. But I don't want any grown adult touching me, or elbowing me in the ribs while I'm seated. I was hoping the Covid freak out, Lexan walls everywhere, would give the airlines the idea about dividers between seats.........but nope. If airplanes had floor to ceiling walls between seats, flying would be so much better.

The cruise ships need a giant ramp like a ferry. Not tiny little doors. Also the cruise lines have failed to maintain they ability to break the legs of greedy, slow, lazy, kinda unionized in a cartel way, dock workers. So there's always a delay from some overpaid striking Momo's in at least one port every week.

The crowds on the ship are fine. But I skip all of the lame evening shows. That's where the crowds are the worst. I'm usually exhausted from diving. I'd rather dine late and spend a little time at the casino or singles bar.
 
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cbrarick

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too bad it's not a respiratory droplet issue, but a respiratory aerosol. Non-N95 masks are useless on that.
However, if you're looking for someone who has had friends seriously sick or died, about 40 people in the SNF's I go to died, over 100 went to hospital. One of my MD friends is now medically retired after spending 7 weeks on the vent and another died. Neither had any pre-existing conditions.
 

MidOH

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Sorry for your loss.

I had one friend that was very sick, but recovered fine. He was fit, but has a risky lifestyle. Everyone else that I know of, had milder symptoms than a regular flu or cold, with loss of taste, mild chills / fever for a couple days.

I'm not convinced that the masks work much for this. Me taking my now dry mask out of my pocket, it was previously soaked, and putting it on, kinda makes me a germ sprinkler as I breath. No more droplets to contain anything. Some distancing, immune system, and/or vaccine, makes more sense.

But hey, at least the busses, trains, and gov't buildings, have been cleaned and disinfected for the first time in decades..........
 

Cody Webster

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Im not in the know, I havent spent a lot of time researching so maybe someone here will have some answers. Why is natural immunity not even on the radar? To me we have 3 groups of people not 2. We have vaccinated people, non vaccinated people, and people who have had coronavirus naturally, survived and developed antibodies. I had corona, Im not vaccinated, and the limited info I have seen suggests that natural immunity is valid. Thoughts?
 

MidOH

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Because we're busy pushing the vaccine. (why are people so pushy?)

Nobody wants to talk about the immune people. Some doctors are finally coming forward that antibody people may be better off. Their immune system has experience with the real thing, not just familiar with a protein that's in Covid.

Had a link to the report somewhere, but not going to waste my time if nobody cares to read it.

Our immunity is valid, but we're still at nearly as much (low) risk as vaccinated and unvaccinated people. There's no majik bullet yet.
 

Marc_G

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Im not in the know, I havent spent a lot of time researching so maybe someone here will have some answers. Why is natural immunity not even on the radar? To me we have 3 groups of people not 2. We have vaccinated people, non vaccinated people, and people who have had coronavirus naturally, survived and developed antibodies. I had corona, Im not vaccinated, and the limited info I have seen suggests that natural immunity is valid. Thoughts?
Because we're busy pushing the vaccine. (why are people so pushy?)

Nobody wants to talk about the immune people. Some doctors are finally coming forward that antibody people may be better off. Their immune system has experience with the real thing, not just familiar with a protein that's in Covid.

Had a link to the report somewhere, but not going to waste my time if nobody cares to read it.

Our immunity is valid, but we're still at nearly as much (low) risk as vaccinated and unvaccinated people. There's no majik bullet yet.
There are lots of real world evidence studies following the very question posed here, essentially how effective is immunity from prior infection versus from vaccination.

Early data suggested for the main early versions of the virus, immunity was pretty good against those versions, but evidence is now mounting that natural immunity isn't great protection against the variants of the virus that are now becoming most common.

The vaccine raises immunity against a highly conserved protein and gives the body a very strong and effective response that means the virus --any variant--is unlikely to establish a strong infection in the body.

The natural immunity raises a variety of responses against different elements of the virus (which is good) but it seems to be less effective against the new variants. The response to the spike protein specifically isn't as aggressive it seems compared to the vaccine-derived immune response.

The vaccine is exceptionally low risk so it makes sense for everyone to be vaccinated to give a strong response to challenge by the virus variants going around now.

That said I'm expecting to need yearly boosters for a while.
 

Marc_G

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Here is an informative article that discusses the Delta variant and it's ability to slip past natural immunity.


It's important to note that the vaccines are still highly effective against this variant, though a little less effective than against the wild type virus.

Everyone needs to get vaccinated FULLY to keep this thing from spreading, with the exception being folks with a medical reason not to. The alternative may be a return to lockdowns like other countries have had to do.

Vaccines are available everywhere in the US for free. Just get the shot, folks.
 

PayLoad

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This subject is stupid, a waste of time, and only panders to those who have an angle to work it with. Drop it
 

Bowman

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Without a "please" that comes across like an order.
I'm sure that is not your intent.
 

kuririn

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This discussion is relevant to the greatest public health threat in our lifetime.
Therefore important as hell in my book.
If you don't like it feel free to add it to your "ignore threads' list.
But don't tell others what they should or should not discuss.
Reserve that for the Chinese, North Korean and Russian governments.
As far as whether previously infected people should be vaccinated, the experts in the medical community are overwhelmingly in concensus on this:
From the CDC website:
COVID-19 vaccination is a safer way to help build protection
  • Get vaccinated regardless of whether you already had COVID-19. Studies have shown that vaccination provides a strong boost in protection in people who have recovered from COVID-19,.
  • Learn more about the clinical considerations for people were treated for COVID-19 with monoclonal antibodies or convalescent plasma, or history of multisystem inflammatory syndrome in adults or children (MIS-A or MIS-C).
  • COVID-19 is still a threat to people who are unvaccinated. Some people who get COVID-19 can become severely ill, which could result in hospitalization, and some people have ongoing health problems several weeks or even longer after getting infected. Even people who did not have symptoms when they were infected can have these ongoing health problems.
Per Dr. Fauci:
  • “We need to get vaccinated because vaccines are highly efficacious. They are better than the traditional response you get from natural infection,” he added.
Doctors say people with previous COVID-19 infections should get vaccinated as Delta variant spreads (cbs58.com)
Excerpt:
"Doctors say some of the new widely circulating variants have also proven to be good at evading naturally developed immunity, and many more studies have shown better antibody presence after a vaccine.

"That is to say previous COVID infection does not protect you from several of the new variants as effectively as the vaccine," adds Dr. Weston."


Now, research is ongoing and this may change as we learn more. But as of right now these are the recommendations from the medical experts. Maybe, just maybe it would be wise to follow them?
 
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Marc_G

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As the original poster of this thread, let me state that this thread is not about pandering. It started as a serious exploration of what seemed to me sudden and abrupt change in guidance that caused me to do some introspection.

The thread has evolved since then (much like the virus? ;)) and is still relevant regarding protections in the context of "what precautions still make sense." I invite anyone who doesn't think the subject is relevant to themselves to post a cool build thread or launch report in the relevant subforum.
 

tab28682

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Although I have had Covid and have completed the second vaccine shot at the end of March, I have started masking again, indoors, in shops and public areas. I don't need to mask, but I feel we all need to encourage masking for now. With the Delta variant coming on strong, I think we need to encourage masking in general. Would be nice if all unvaccinated folks did that as well, to help prevent them spreading this more contagious variant.

Here in North Texas, masking is still running about 50% or so indoors, in public.
 

MidOH

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Greatest public health threat? Wow, such drama. Haha.

Heart disease
Suicide (major increases recently, yay)
Drug addiction
Mental Health
 

kuririn

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Greatest public health threat? Wow, such drama. Haha.
No drama. Educate yourself.
COVID-19 Ranks as a Leading Cause of Death in U.S. (webmd.com)
One Year In: How Covid’s Toll Compares With Other Causes of Death | Kaiser Health News (khn.org)
618,287 US deaths from Covid to date
690,000 US deaths (provisional) from heart disease in 2020 per CDC
598,000 US deaths (provisional) from cancer in 2020 per CDC.
Here's the link:
Provisional Mortality Data — United States, 2020 | MMWR (cdc.gov)
Also would be nice if you back up your statements with links from reputable sources.
Otherwise you are just posting suppositions.

Edit: I should also mention that cancer and heart disease are not infectious diseases. Covid is, and can be readily mitigated with vaccines and public health measures (distancing, masks, vaccines).
 
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tab28682

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Greatest public health threat? Wow, such drama. Haha.

Heart disease
Suicide (major increases recently, yay)
Drug addiction
Mental Health
And none of those are infectious diseases that can get passed on to you or a loved one from someone else.
 

Steven

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I wear my mask when I need to and don't when I don't have too. Huzzah!
 

Bravo52

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No drama. Educate yourself.
COVID-19 Ranks as a Leading Cause of Death in U.S. (webmd.com)
One Year In: How Covid’s Toll Compares With Other Causes of Death | Kaiser Health News (khn.org)
618,287 US deaths from Covid to date
690,000 US deaths (provisional) from heart disease in 2020 per CDC
598,000 US deaths (provisional) from cancer in 2020 per CDC.
Here's the link:
Provisional Mortality Data — United States, 2020 | MMWR (cdc.gov)
Also would be nice if you back up your statements with links from reputable sources.
Otherwise you are just posting suppositions.

Edit: I should also mention that cancer and heart disease are not infectious diseases. Covid is, and can be readily mitigated with vaccines and public health measures (distancing, masks, vaccines).
You forgot to talk about "comorbidities". You know, the part about how most who died had "one or more" comorbidities...
 
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