LDRS worries

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Neil

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Well, my dad and I have been discussing my HPR participation at LDRS... He says that this launch will be "much harder to do" than normal CMASS or Pinetree launches along the lines of me doing HPR. Both places seem quite easy to do HPR at as long as my dad is with me. But he seems very worried about this one... He thinks it will be much more "by the book". He doesent know anything more than I do about this, so I thought I would ask you.

What will it be like? Is it hard to do HPR at big launches like LDRS? Should I even come with my dad to the check-in table for my HPR birds? Or are these people just like CMASS and Pinetree people, more or less tolerant if not encouraging? Im a little confused about all this... I really want to launch some big stuff (mainly the Shadow and Flame, which will be done in time... Assuming I can find a way to get a J350 or J420...), but my dad thinks it will be pretty hard... Is it? (question mainly directed at other teenagers who do HPR...) What are the expectations?

And what are the lines like? How many pads? Are they like CMASS lines (10-15 people), or Pinetree lines (0-0 people :D )? How many flights can one person get in during 3 or 4 days at LDRS? Are the RSOs very strict about motor retention? At Pinetree you can get away without any retention at all just friction fit... Is it the same story at bigger launches?

So can anyone just tell me what to expect?

Thanks.:eek:
 

BlueNinja

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At NARAM, the lines were mostly pretty short. I think that iw will be the same for LDRS. You should be fine coming to the table when the RSO inspects the rocket.
 

sandman

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If it's the same group that put on NARAM 43...Neil...get yourself a lawn chair and just watch.

Listen, I think it's great that you think you should be able to play with the big kids and I'm confident that you have the ability and the knowledge.

But please...don't ruin it for others just because YOU think you are special and should be allowed to fly HPR at your age.

You are under age, nothing can change that! That is the rule!

Try explaining that fact to a state trooper that pulls you over for driving your dad's car.

"But officer...I'm very mature for my age...and I don't think I really need a licence."

Basically it's the same thing.

sandman
 

DPatell

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In your case, you don't have a LEUP, you shouldn't have those I357's and whatever else you have. That is beyond NAR or TRA.

In case of lines, the lines shouldn't be bad. I remember at Naram43 I made a lot of flights, but they were all through my dad. If you wish to do a reload flight, or anything with a G, you need your dad. They will not be at all lienient. And yes, it is because you are a kid.

Now I know I am only 16, but there is a difference. When they see me walk up with my dad, and I am carrying the rocket, and explain everything they want to know, it sort of takes them by surprise at first. I know a few of the guys there now, and they know that I am capable. But my dad and I still accompany each other out to the pad, his flight or mine.

LDRS is not the "get as many flights up as possible" kind of launch. Expect to do a lot of watching, and it will be some good watching.

Don't expect to be independant at these launches. People will wonder if they see you walking around with a huge rocket without your dad.

And PLEASE don't choose any debatable motors for rockets...if the RSO sees you come up with a monster on a tiny motor, they will shake their head and get a bad impression. Please make sure you know that the motor will be suitable.

I suggest the first day or two launch a few mid powers. Let them get to know you a little, then when you walk up with your dad with a big rocket, they will know what you can do and not think twice.

All of this is based on experiences with this group at NARAM43 and the last two NYPower's. Great group of guys, but they stick to the book in terms of age. They just trust adults more.

Please keep all of this in mind and don't plan too much. If you do you will be disappointed.
 

rstaff3

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I would think you'd be ok as long as the rocket was 'your dad's'. He'd have to take it thru the RSO and put himself on the flight card, etc. My son accompanied me to LDRS19. He wasn't into rockets at the time but came along to keep me company. He helped prep here and there, walked with me thru the RSO process, and helped with set up at the pad. No one said anything about it. I was more worried that someone would think that he snuck thru as a flier on my one registration (he had no rockets and wasn't a flier).

Not that this will 'fly' this time, just my experience.

If you are in fact a flier you should of course also pay for your own registration, etc.
 

daveyfire

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My first LDRS was LDRS 17 in 1998. I was 10. And my dad did everything with me -- basically, don't take any chances. I've never flown with the NY guys, but be on the safe side and haul him around ;) At any large launch, you won't get to do much flying; 1 or 2 flights per day is about it. But don't stress out about this, rather sit back and enjoy the flights going off -- it's why you're there, right?

BTW, funny story about that first LDRS... I was sitting at our table prepping a J180T for our Expediter L2 cert flight, and Scott Deakins came walking by. He said "Wow, that's a pretty big motor you've got there!" I replied, "Nah, it's only 800 Newton Seconds!" He looked surprised, mumbled "Smart ***...", and walked away... :D
 

Neil

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dang...

Should I just save this stuff for Cherryfield, then? Sounds a bit tougher than I thought... Maybe it would be better to just bring the camera... :eek:

(neil looks very dissapointadly at his gleaming and freshly-painted S&F boat tail, brand-new PML Quarter scale patriot, and three minumum-diameter mach-capable birds and mutters something between a groan and a angry grunt)

Maybe it WOULD be better to just fly at Cherryfield and watch at LDRS... (that saves the problem of how I am going to fit all the rockets, plus food and tent into the truck...) Should I just take all my "fun stuff" north instead of west? I am almost positive that I am more welcome up there than I am over there...

Someone insulting 2 months of work for any reason (nomatter what) would make me rather angry... Better not risk it. It seems a much better idea to fly with people who know me and what I am doing, rather than walking into a crowd of strangers hoping they will let me fly it... Its a real pity to abandon some of the things that would have made it most exiting for me, but it beats having it grounded because I am "too young". Cherryfield (Pinetree) is nice, accomidating, laid back, and no lines.... I guess i'll just wait for Labor Day to roll around for my Shadow and Flame... Ill have enough money for something that can get the Flame off the pad then too...

Well, at least ill be able to get more pictures...:(
 

DPatell

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No one said don't fly, just take it easy, make sure everything is 110% ready to fly, and have fun. Save the more debatable things for local launches.

No one would insult your work, just question it. If they saw something questionable they might not accept it and that is never cool.

Take plenty of pics anyways.
 

Ryan S.

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yeah I plan on not flying to much stuff. Maybe 4 flights max
 

Neil

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Well, even if they question one bit about the build, or anything, it will become very clear who built it... I would proabably awnser the question out of reflex, and proabably do too good a job of it for there to be any doubt in the RSOs mind who built the thing...

I just dont like the whole concept of it. Thy proabably wont insult it directly, but if they even slightly suggested that it wasnt built properly, I would proabably take it, well, badly, to put it nicely.:eek: :rolleyes:

Dang I am sick of being 13 years old... Cant I either step in a wormhole and be transported to a time when I am 20 years old, or at least to a place where I can certify at my age? Well duh, I konw I cant, and I know I would regret it if I did, but the idea seams pretty darn apealing right now...:kill:

Would it be too "debatable" if I flew 38MM minimum diameter rocket on a G64 with an adaptor? Proabably... Chuck that idea.

And there is nothing wrong with us having I357s or any of those other motors. We are back to the 1994 set of rules, so we can buy easy access motors without a LEUP if we like, remember? The NAR and TRA are encouraging vendors to sell easy access motors without LEUPs.:)

Lawnchair. Camera. Several small (relative to the Shadow and Flame, of course...) rockets. Food. Tent. Water.



What did you mean about "the people who put on NARAM 43"?:eek: Are they worse about this kind of thing than other people? THier website looked very... Well... Official.:rolleyes:
 

sandman

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What did you mean about "the people who put on NARAM 43"? Are they worse about this kind of thing than other people? THier website looked very... Well... Official.
They are "By the Book"!

No rule bending. As it should be!

I've never met you but then again I've never met any 13 year old with the maturity to drive a car or take HPR rockets seriuosly ALL THE TIME. All it takes is one bout of "horseplay" to realy make something bad happen.

sandman
 

BlueNinja

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I don't think it would be anything wrong with flying your min dia rocket on a G64. Also, aboute h 1994 set of rules, I didn't know that and I thought you had a LEUP anyway.

?
 

DPatell

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NARAM 43 took place in Geneseo. MARS and BRS host it. And yes, they are methodical and very "by the book."

It appears you have taken in personally. Don't, you can't help you're 13, your time will come. Patience pays off.
 

Stones

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Originally posted by Neil
...
Dang I am sick of being 13 years old... Cant I either step in a wormhole and be transported to a time when I am 20 years old, or at least to a place where I can certify at my age?
...
Trust me on this one Neil...
There will come a time in your life when looking back on being a 13 year old will be a luxury. Enjoy it while ya got it!
 

Ryan S.

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Originally posted by Neil
[BDang I am sick of being 13 years old... Cant I either step in a wormhole and be transported to a time when I am 20 years old, or at least to a place where I can certify at my age? Well duh, I konw I cant, and I know I would regret it if I did, but the idea seams pretty darn apealing right now...:kill:

Would it be too "debatable" if I flew 38MM minimum diameter rocket on a G64 with an adaptor? Proabably... Chuck that idea.

[/B]
Dude stop whining, we were all there, and to tell you the truth it is only going to get worse, not better. I think the fact that you are whining shows you arent ready to fly these rockets.

how would flying a 38mm rocket on a G64 be debatable?
 

sandman

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Neil,

Trade ya!

I wanna be 13 for ONE MORE SUMMER...mow lawns, go to the beach, play in the woods, not getting up in the morning with 56 year old aches and pains...

You go to work for me every day.

sandman
 

edwardw

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It's wierd how when we are young we want to be old and when old want to be young. Enjoy being 13, it'll only happen once!

You can learn a lot from sitting and watching other people. At LDRS there is a wealth of information and you can learn by just watching and asking questions. Take the time to learn.

On most launches I plan on 1-3 flights. The rest of the time I'm helping or talking to people and getting to know them. Launches aren't all about rockets to me, it's about getting to know the guys who share my passion.

As for rules...they are there for a reason. Like Sandman said you can't change them. I don't know that many 13 year olds that are really mature. Maturity comes with age and time - thats the only way to get it. I know a couple 14 year old's that are done with college but they aren't that mature. Not saying that you aren't, but as a rule maturity comes with age.

Enjoy your age and have fun at LDRS, set up a chair and get some good binoculars. Once you get to know the people then you can fly.

Edward
 

Elapid

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it would be nice to not have mortgage payments and car payments, and insurance payments of several flavors, the IRS...

i'd trade it all for a skateboard!
;)
 

sandman

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If I can find a WAY-BACK machine and be able to take one thing with me to be 13 again.

It would be my mountain bike!

sandman
 

LMazza

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I'm pretty interested in this topic being 17 and never having gone to a major launch like this one. I have no problem going with my dad to the RSO and to the pads but I'd be much much better at answering questions about my own rockets. Do you think they'd let me do the talking?
 

Elapid

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and haven't been to an organized launch yet!
so, we're kind of in the same boat...
just remember that all those guys and gals that run the show were all in EXACTLY the same position at one time...

relax and go with the flow!

maybe i'll bring my dad for moral support!
he'd probably get a kick out of it!
:D
 

Ray Dunakin

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Originally posted by Neil
What will it be like? Is it hard to do HPR at big launches like LDRS? Should I even come with my dad to the check-in table for my HPR birds? Or are these people just like CMASS and Pinetree people, more or less tolerant if not encouraging? Im a little confused about all this... I really want to launch some big stuff (mainly the Shadow and Flame, which will be done in time... Assuming I can find a way to get a J350 or J420...), but my dad thinks it will be pretty hard... Is it? (question mainly directed at other teenagers who do HPR...) What are the expectations?
And what are the lines like? How many pads? Are they like CMASS lines (10-15 people), or Pinetree lines (0-0 people :D )? HoThanks.:eek:
Many of these things vary depending on the group that is running the launch, and even on who happens to be doing RSO at any particular moment. But let me set your mind at ease a bit....

First off, if your dad is certified to fly high power, just have him go to the RSO and pads with you, sign the flight card etc, and you shouldn't have any problems. No need to hide the fact that you built the rocket -- if you're obviously doing this under the supervision of your father I don't think anyone will give you a hard time about it. Just make sure you know what your doing. If you're going to the launch anyway, you have nothing to lose -- the worst they'll do is tell you to come back when you're older. No one's going to put you down or make fun of your rocket (well, they might if it was paper towel tubes and duct tape with a J350 stuck in it!) I'm aware of at least one teen who flew high power at last year's LDRS, so there is precident for it. Just don't argue with them or make a scene if they say "no" -- it's their launch, and their decision.

Secondly, if your dad is certified, HE shouldn't have any trouble getting a motor. Forget this nonsense about LEUPs. The fact of the matter is that a LEUP is not a strict necessity. You can buy and fly on site under the "supervision" of a licensed person. Usually this is the dealer but anyone with a LEUP will do and most will be happy to help. More importantly, fully assembled motors are EXEMPT from ATF regulation and do not require LEUPs at all. If you can't get a reload, buy an Ellis single use motor -- they have some great stuff. And again, if you're going to the launch anyway you have nothing to lose by trying. The worst that can happen is you won't get to fly.

As for the number of pads, and the length of lines, that varies greatly with each LDRS. Some have had long lines (or long waits after getting your rocket on the pad). Others have had much shorter waits. But generally speaking, don't expect to get a lot of flights in. Spend a lot of time walking around visiting the other folks at the launch, checking out their projects and asking questions -- you'll have fun, see a lot of interesting things that often never make it into the magazines, and learn a lot. Just watch out when you see someone prepping a rocket -- they may not want to be bothered just then.
 

Manwithbeers

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Why doesn't TRA have a Junior HP program? CAR has one that seems to be working well but I have no direct experience. At last years roc lake event there was at least 1 young lady who certified lv 1 on an H147 (just saw video of it).

Just seems to me like it's the natural way to ensure young roketeers are brought into HP the correct way.

Roc Lake 7 is just 2 weeks away! Woo Hoo!
 

Chilly

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the 18-year-old limit isn't exactly arbitrary. I'll need to get out my TRA book, but our safety code is supposed to be based on NFPA code. Granted that's a "voluntary" thing but once we've chosen to align ourselves with it, we'd better have a doggone good reason to waive our own rules...otherwise we just look foolish. And from what I understand, HPR had a long hard road towards earning legitimacy. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

The Tripoli Report mentioned a request at last year's LDRS to waive the the total impulse limit for a certain project (that seems like a no-brainer - NO!) and I guess there's been mulitiple requests to waive the 12-hour separation between commercial and EX launches. My point is, even the adults get inconvenienced. Try figuring out how to afford a LEUP & storage when you're the sole source of income for your family. Enjoy 13 while you're still there!
 

Neil

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Yes, I still know how to have fun being 13.... Just ask any paper towel tube that showed its face after I bought a BB gun....:D :D

Thats pretty comforting information... Thanks. I still think ill wait for Cherryfield to launch my S&F (that reminds me... My nosecone for it should be cured by now... :D ), but I might take a crack at my PML Quarter Scale Patriot... I gave it good motor retention, good fillets, good pretty much everything, so theres no reason NOT to let me fly it.... Hm.... I161 or I357.... :D Im gonna go check the PML site to see what it can take...:cool: :) But I wont fly anthing :iffy:.... That is to say nothing without motor retention ETC. I might try out my PML IO, though...

Do they care much about motor retention at these things? I am pretty confident friction fit works (it worked in my dad's L1 flight...), but how do they see the matter?
 

DPatell

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they prefer positive motor retention, but friction fit works. lots of people still use it.
 

Neil

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So do you think a PML Quarter Scale Patriot with a nuts n' washers motor retention system (its bullet proof...:eek: ) on an I161 would be OK? I should think it would... It would/will go about 2700' according to the PML website... A little high, but I think theres enough room...

Hm.... What else.... I should skip my Raptor on that H125 proabably....

PML IO on an H148 might be OK....Yanks IWSY Tomahawk on an H or something...

Over 4 days I should be able to get three or four good flights in, right?

I should proabably stay in the L1 range... My dad doesent want to certify untill Labor Day anyway... His rockets almost done, though... If he really pushed I bet he could get it done in time for LDRS, but he has decided he wants to do it at Cherryfield, so I guess thats what the plan is.

Im going to fiddle with out camera to get the most pictures out of it possible... Right now it can do about 230 with our new 128 MB card... Maybe if I tweak the picture size I could get 300.... Then I would only have to load the pictures onto my dad's computer once a day...

Who else is camping out at LDRS? We plan on camping the whole time... We might get a hotel one night so we can take a shower or whatever, but other than that, we will be camping out every night. My dad is bringing his laptop so we can put the pictures on there whenever the card fills up.

This should be a fun launch!:)
 

daveyfire

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Take whatever you feel comfortable flying. Don't let the threats of the big mean RSO scare you away -- they're just hobbyists too and want to make sure that you have a successful flight at their successful event. Nobody there has anything against you and your rockets, so take whatever you want to fly. If the RSO turns you down, don't take it personally, just be polite and courteous and say OK. But don't be afraid to take rockets to fly; like Ray said, they'll probably let you fly unless you have paper towel tubes with fins duct taped on with a J350 in them. So take what YOU want to fly, because that's what LDRS is about!
 

Mike

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Originally posted by Neil
Im going to fiddle with out camera to get the most pictures out of it possible... Right now it can do about 230 with our new 128 MB card... Maybe if I tweak the picture size I could get 300.... Then I would only have to load the pictures onto my dad's computer once a day...
Make sure you leave enough resolution so you can crop it down and still get good quality...we want those nice pics!

If you're short on space remember to delete all those missed shots!
 

Neil

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Hm... Yeah. But right now I think its at full computer screen size... I dont need pictures THAT big! Maybe medium/high resolution, but about 750 pixels wide or something....:confused:
 
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