Launching a Pro Series II Prowler Rocket, Am I On The Right Track?

Discussion in 'Ground Support' started by Ryanator, Jan 7, 2019.

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  1. Jan 7, 2019 #1

    Ryanator

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    Hey there,

    I'm new to the forums and had a question for ya'll. I flew basic rockets from Estes when I was younger but now that I'm getting back into it, I was thinking about picking up the Estes Pro Series 11 Prowler. I wanted a rocket that goes high, and it advertises 3,000 ft with the booster.

    My question is,

    1: I plan on using a F15-8 engine alongside the EX2 Booster, also from Estes. Is the booster a one time use or can you reuse it?

    2: Is the F15-8 the most powerful engine that will go with the Prowler?

    If anybody also has any advice for me, I would appreciate it.

    Thanks for your time!

    https://www.estesrockets.com/009710-pro-series-iitm-e2x-prowlertm-launch-set

    https://www.estesrockets.com/009752-pro-series-iitm-e2x-booster
     
  2. Jan 7, 2019 #2

    DRAGON64

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    The booster is re-usable if you do not lose it after launching it. As for largest motor; when using the booster, only Estes black powder motors will work together. Otherwise the sustainer can be flown on most any 29mm single use or reloadable motor.
     
  3. Jan 7, 2019 #3

    kuririn

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    Most powerful two stage combo would be the F15-0/F15-8. Apogee of 3000 ft. per Estes. Launch from a big field if you want to get it back. or use a JLCR.
    Most powerful single stage would be an Aerotech G, SU or RMS. Check for stability with the heavier motors.
    EDIT: I forgot, Cesaroni makes 29mm 6XL grain H and I motors, definitely check for stability with these, and you will have to be certified. Your Prowler might not be able to survive, but you asked what is the most powerful motor, right?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  4. Jan 7, 2019 #4

    GlenP

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    https://www.jollylogic.com/products/chuterelease/

    aka "JLCR"

    some folks also rig up a "screamer" i.e. a personal safety alarm that sounds a very loud alarm when a pin is pulled from the key-chain sized fob at ejection, or even pre-launch if you wanted.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  5. Jan 7, 2019 #5

    Bat-mite

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    I do not personally believe that the Estes black powder motors have sufficient push off the pad to accommodate the weight of the PSII rocket/booster combination. i know Estes says they do, but they don't state how long the rod needs to be, nor that you need to launch it in nearly 0 wind.

    You'd be lucky to get 30 fps off the pad, and ThrustCurve.org backs me up on that.
     
    Steve Shannon likes this.
  6. Jan 7, 2019 #6

    Scott_650

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    Not to get into a contest of any kind but I’ve successfully launched my PSII E2X rockets - the Mammoth and the Trajector - with a simmed launch speed of 30ish fps in calm conditions many times. Would I do it on less than a 5-6 foot launch rod or in any winds much above 8mph? Nope. But in calm conditions on a 5-6 foot rod? Done it and they flew plenty stable. YMMV so do what you think is right.
     
  7. Jan 8, 2019 #7

    neil_w

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    Note: if you ever intend to really push the Prowler on bigger composite motors, fold a piece of scotch tape over the leading edge of each fin. This prevents air from getting in the leading edge and blowing the fins apart.

    Again, only applicable for larger motors (certainly not the Estes BP motors).
     
  8. Jan 8, 2019 #8

    Charles_McG

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    I second the -low- wind and long rod for staging the Estes 29mm black powder motors. It's really easy to slip under the minimum 3:1 thrust:weight ratio with the F-F combo. E16 in the booster gives a little more margin in both thrust and mass - and staging happens lower, so it's easier to watch. And easier to find the booster.
     
  9. Jan 8, 2019 #9

    Rainmaker

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    +1 For the E16 in the booster. That's how I typically do it for exactly those two reasons, but I rarely fly for height.
     
  10. Jan 9, 2019 #10

    Ryanator

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  11. Jan 9, 2019 #11

    Bat-mite

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    Oh, you wanted a non-technical reply? Then the answer is no.
     
  12. Jan 10, 2019 #12

    dhbarr

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    It will probably work if it's not very windy.

    You probably won't get it back in any case.
     
  13. Jan 10, 2019 #13

    Scott_650

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    Yup, if your goal is a one time shot just to see how high it’ll go feel free to load it up to the max and watch the smoke trail. If your plan is to get a taste of larger, mid-powered rocketry you might want to think it over and go single stage on a 29mm BP E motor. Either way, the equipment that comes in Estes website bundle will work fine on a calm day. It’s your money and your rocket so it’s your choice.
     
  14. Jan 10, 2019 #14

    Zeus-cat

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    Is there a local club nearby? You may want to go there and launch with them. More eyes means a better chance of getting it back.
     
  15. Jan 10, 2019 #15

    GlenP

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  16. Jan 10, 2019 #16

    jlabrasca

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    Hi Ryanator -- welcome back to the hobby.

    Non-technical responses are tricky. It is, after all, rocket science.

    1) The E2X booster stage is basically a motor mount with fins. As others have said, it is re-usuable, but easy to lose. You load a booster engine (an F15-0 or an E16-0) into the booster stage. The booster motor doesn't have an ejection charge or a delay. When the propellant burns through hot gasses blow out the forward end to ignite the motor in the Prowler. The exhaust from the sustainer (the engine in the Prowler) will push the two stages apart and the booster will fall away.

    This kind of staging only works with black powder motors -- the kind of motors that Estes sells.

    2) "Powerful" is a slippery term for rocket motors.

    Motors are rated by total impulse -- the thrust (force) developed integrated over the duration of the burn. The short answer is that for use as an upper stage, the F18 will probably put the rocket higher than the only other choice for 29mm black powder motor -- the E16.

    FWIW, according to the data compiled here

    http://www.thrustcurve.org/

    The F15 develops a total impulse of 49.6 N.s with an average thrust of 14.4 Newtons. http://www.thrustcurve.org/simfilesearch.jsp?id=2021

    The only other 29 mm motor Estes currently sells is the E16 which develops an impulse of 33.6 N.s with an average thrust of 17 Newtons

    You can read about impulse classes here

    https://apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter131.pdf

    There are other motors other than Estes engines which will fit into the Prowler.

    Aerotech sells single-use motors with composite propellant (not black powder). You will not be able to use one of these as an upper stage or as a booster in the the same way that you can use black powder motors, but there are 29mm G motors which will develop more than twice the total impulse of an Estes F motor.

    In a rocket as lightweight as the Prowler, a single use G motor, might push it to 900 meters (2900 feet) or higher.

    There is software that will simulate this for you

    prolweronaG.png

    This is using a program called OpenRocket and a file for the Prowler put together by forum poster kevinkal

    https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...i-prowler-rocksim-design.141391/#post-1709038

    The motor I loaded in the simulation is a single-use G77. Note that you would have to leave off the motor block in order to fit the engine (it is a little longer than an Estes 29mm black powder engine) and that I had to put 1.25 oz. of weight in the nose in order to get the rocket stable on this motor. Ona G80 single use motor, Open Rocket puts apogee over 1000 meters (3300 feet). That is a LONG way for a rocket to come down under a parachute, and is liable to drift very far from the launch pad.

    There are 29 mm H impulse motors, but you need to have Level 1 certification to purchase them.

    From the way you asked the questions, I am guessing that rocket stability, the distinctions between black powder and composite propellants, between single-use and reloadable motors, and between mid-power and high-power rocketry, might not be familiar to you. It is easy enough to get up to speed on these things, but until you do it is probably a good idea to stick with the Estes motors.

    If you are in the US, look here

    https://www.nar.org/find-a-local-club/nar-club-locator/

    To see if there is a National Association of Rocketry club near you. A club will likely have more robust launch pads (heavier bases and longer rods) than what you can buy from Estes, and access to a launch site with a large enough recovery area to make it worthwhile to launch a rocket to 3000 feet or higher.

    Good luck.

    edit: typos typos typos
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  17. Jan 10, 2019 #17

    Sabrina

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    Hi Ryanator, Welcome to the forum!! :D

    Here's what I think about your plan... it could work out great, - or not.

    Your cost for the Launch set, booster, and 2 motors, with hazmat delivery will be about $125 or a bit more. It will go about 3000 feet high - in under 10 seconds. :rolleyes:
    It will be going about 250 mph at top speed. :eek:

    It's going to be difficult to keep your eye o_O on it. - It would be sad :( to loose it on the first launch... and expensive. :mad::confused::mad:

    >>>>>> HINT>>>>> Don't loose it on the first launch!!!!!!;)

    My personal recommendation is to launch without the booster using an E16-6 motor - do that a couple of times to get an Idea about how things work.

    When you think your ready :) and have a very big area for your launch site (1500' x 1500' or more) :D and on a calm clear day with blue skies :cool: and with some extra friends to help you watch it :);):(o_O - try a launch on a single Aerotech F44 motor - or if you feel adventurous :p try a G74 motor - yes, I said a "G" (twice the power of that lame "F" motor)

    - and there are even bigger motors when you are ready...

    Just remember, recovering your rocket is really the hardest part of rocketry >>>>> Don't loose it on the first launch!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

    =============================================================================================

    Here is a video of a rocket my Dad and I launched to 3000' - I taped a video camera to the side of the rocket :cool::cool::cool::cool:

     
  18. Jan 10, 2019 #18

    Scott_650

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    FYI, in case this got lost with all the posts, Estes has the E2X PSII Prowler bundled with their E controller and launch base for $39.99 on their website. Even with shipping that’s a pretty good deal - if you were quick enough to buy it during their Christmas free shipping sale it was a really good deal. I thought about it myself but I have enough launch equipment and all the 29mm rockets I can handle right now...

    And wow! Thanks Sabrina for posting the video of the upscale Cherokee flight - the stills of the rocket opening up during recovery are really awesome.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  19. Jan 14, 2019 #19

    DankMemes

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    I can attest to this from experience
     
  20. May 13, 2019 #20

    Danny Joe Howe

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    Lots of learning on this post I also have a prowler and I was wondering about using a composite motor but my question is do I need the pro series 2 launch controller to do so or can I use the one that comes with the kit
     
  21. May 13, 2019 #21

    DankMemes

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    Danny,

    You would need any launch controller capable of 12 volts, as the starters used for the 29mm composite motors require a 12 V launch system. If you are flying with a club you should be set, on you’re own you’ll need a beefier launch system... also when assembling the rocket the imstuctions call for a cardboard ring inside the motor mount tube, called an engine block, you should leave that out for composite motors as the larger ones are longer... to continue to fly on the estes black powder motors, just put about 1/8 wide ring of tape round the nozzle end of the motor to keep it from sliding up into the rocket and fly as usual.
     
  22. May 13, 2019 #22

    Bat-mite

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    Car battery would work. No way to test continuity or switch off, of course. But you could touch wires to the leads to get your 12V.
     
  23. May 14, 2019 at 2:10 AM #23

    dhbarr

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    One that comes in the box will be just fine. Use
    Energizer Ultimate ( LiFeS2 ) AA ,
    Rechargeable 14500 LiPo ,
    Wire in a 3s LiPo pack , or
    Wire in a 12v SLA, mower, or car battery.

    I've successfully used 3/4 of these methods on various Estes and Aerotech motors up to G.

    Remember to press-and-hold until you see movement.
     
  24. May 14, 2019 at 5:34 AM #24

    OverTheTop

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    Welcome to the forum Ryanator.

    You can hang the motor out the back a bit, but you need to check if the rocket is still stable. For a small rocket such as yours you can do a "swing test" for stability. Just Google it...
     
  25. May 14, 2019 at 7:19 AM #25

    GlenP

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    The motor block is actually installed a little longer than the BP motors, it comes with an orange spacer that must be used with the 29mm E and F BP motors. I assume the F and G recommended single-use Estes (or Aerotech) composite motors recommended in the instructions would fit in there with the motor block as installed per the instructions.
     
  26. May 18, 2019 at 10:19 PM #26

    base890

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    I launch my prowler as a single stage with an Aerotech E-30 with a 29-24mm adapter and it flies great within sight. This keeps it in our soccer complex fairly reliably, more power isn’t always fun if you spend all your time hunting down the rocket or end up losing it.

    If you want to try really high and use various composite motors definitely omit the engine block Estes has you glue into the motor mount. Then go for the biggest G you can get and adjust your nose weight to keep it stable. And tape the fins as suggested above!
     

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