Launch Rails for Micro Maxx Models and Larger in some cases:)

[Micromeister]

Howdy Maxxers!
Last summer www.railbuttons.com owner ask for beta testers to build and launch some Mini and Micro rail button models.
The Rails for these buttons are 15mm square, 10mm square and now 5mm square. but let me digress a little before getting into the specifics of each of these very interesting Launch rails.

I'm sure most of you have noticed our micro models do not like flying in breezes much higher then 10mph. This is especially true for model over about 8 or 9 grams. Looking at many of these "Heavier" models I think I've discovered at least part of the problem.
Because these models lift off at a relitevely slower speed then our ultra light rockets they also tend to Whip the heck out of our .049" or .050" Launch Rods. The heavier the model the longer the rod needs to be, I use the "Standard 9" long .049" stainless steel music wire rod for most of my flying, with .049" x 12" for heavier models and .049" x 18" for Gliders that are parked higher on the rod to start.
The Longer the .049" or .050" rod the more rod whip is encountered as the breeze increases.

Well what to do, what to Do? Looking for a Launch rail! we have a couple to choose from. If we are looking for "Micro Maxx Rails Only" than 10mm &5mm square are the Ticket, If on the other hand you want a single rail that will handle Micro to MPR then possibly the 15mm rail will fit the bill. All three sizes are Clear or Black anodized Aluminum 4-slot extrusions from three different manufacturers.

Briefly here are the discriptions of these 3 different Launch Rails:

The 15mm rail comes from us-misumi-ec.com the interesting thing about this rail is it comes in lengths up to 2000cm(78.75") which can easily be cut down to 72" to fit most Launch Rail carrying tubes. Misumi it an international Industrial Supply with a HUGE website so don't loose this catalog number which will take you directly to the extrusion. Cat. No. KHFS3-1515-2000. the rail itself cost was only 7.40 but the shipping was 12.98 = 20.38 for a single rail. It is an easy way to launch models from Micro Maxx size to larger models with motors up to G-80 all flying with Micro Rail Buttons from www.railbuttons.com These little nylon rail buttons with 2-56" x 3/8" Steel Machine Screws.
This rail however does have a small down side. it is too large for T2+ minimum diameter and T3 micro models with more the 3 fins.

If looking for a rail that will handle MMX to D12 models the 10mm Square MakerBeam rail comes in 300cm, 900cm and 1500cm lengths purchased from www.amazon.com unfortunately that are sold in pairs of two. These can be fitted with a brass tube base and 1/8" pin to fit any medium weight Launcher base that will handle 1/8" launch rods. NOTE: All these rails DO add a good bit of wind load to the launchers so most must either be staked down or sand-bagged to prevent Blow Overs in moderate breezes 10mph and above.
I've personally flown 3fin T3 micro models to D12 powered 2.5lb BT-80 models for 10mm x 900cm rails.

And then we dicovered the NanoBeam 5mm Square extursion. This is a Micro Maxx ONLY rail as it is only avaiable in 30cm(11.875").
That said, this is a sweet little, very strong rail that will take minimum diameter .281" OD models with either 3 or 4 fins. Over the weekend I had the pleasure of flying a couple test models from my newly purchased NanoBeam rails also purchased from www.amazon.com
These little rails are sold in 10 packs for a little over 24 buck. Worth every penny IMHO. The only trouble with this little rail is we have to make our own buttons. I've found there are 2 way to make them. either 00-90 x 3/16" ButtonHead stainless steel machine screws or 20ga wire nails with opposite sides sanded down to fit the rail opening. Both also MUST have a 1/16"dia x 1/32" long sleeve and a 1/8" dia x .00-90 flat washer to keep the head centered in the rail slot, If the sleeve is not used the model has a tendency to rock side to side popping out of the slot.

Below are a few photos or these rails, Sections and launch pictures.

Hope you agree these rails give all us maxxers another way of launching our models.





View attachment MakerBeam Launcher Mount Detail Dwg-C_pdf Drawing-(X3)_03-20-14.pdf

 

[cwbullet]

I will post a picture tonight with a different rail guide for the Nanobeam or Nanorail. It is made with an Plastristruct H-Beam and creates more of an Acme rail guide.

 

[EXPjawa]

I've experimented with the Micro buttons on the 10mm MakerBeam rail, with poor results. The buttons bind significantly in the slots of that rail. Mind you, this was with smaller standard rockets, not Micromaxx. I put them on a Baby Bertha and a clone of the Estes Teros. Test launch of the BB resulted in using most its thrust to get clear of the rail, and deployed the chute about 20' up. I was able to get them workable with considerable filing to the button head, but wound up going back to an 1/8" lug for that size/mass model. It just wasn't worth the effort to file buttons for every rocket I wanted to used them on. I did try reworking the rail itself as well, but the interference appears to be within the triangular cross section of the inner slot. FWIW, I use the larger Mini buttons (on the 20mm rail) all the time, so I definitely see the potential value. But I think a different rail is in order other than the Makerbeam. The 15mm beam appears to have a lot more room in the problem area.

 

[Micromeister]

I've experimented with the Micro buttons on the 10mm MakerBeam rail, with poor results. The buttons bind significantly in the slots of that rail. Mind you, this was with smaller standard rockets, not Micromaxx. I put them on a Baby Bertha and a clone of the Estes Teros. Test launch of the BB resulted in using most its thrust to get clear of the rail, and deployed the chute about 20' up. I was able to get them workable with considerable filing to the button head, but wound up going back to an 1/8" lug for that size/mass model. It just wasn't worth the effort to file buttons for every rocket I wanted to used them on. I did try reworking the rail itself as well, but the interference appears to be within the triangular cross section of the inner slot. FWIW, I use the larger Mini buttons (on the 20mm rail) all the time, so I definitely see the potential value. But I think a different rail is in order other than the Makerbeam. The 15mm beam appears to have a lot more room in the problem area.

Very Strange! I'm not sure what you did but I have a Silver Streak retro fitted with Micro Rail Buttons and a couple MicroMaxx T3(.375") body models all flying from a 900mm(39") MakerBeam without a bit of binding once I did a little sanding on the sleeves from McMaster-Carr. Straight as an arrow flights from all to very good altitude in fairly brisk winds 14-18mph.
As a matter of fact the Silver Streak has buttons from one shipment, the micros from another (actually my experiments with parts from McMaster-Carr. What part did you find was binding? I have seen a few binder head nylon screw heads and some of the Shoulder Spacers from McMaster-Carr that needed a little Filing to free up but none from Rail-Buttons.com. You might want to look at using a flat needle file on both side of the shoulder before trashing the MakerBeam Rails which have been Mic'ed consistant in section across two or three different purchases from Amazon for me in three different lengths.
Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Micromeister]

Heres a couple more closer photos of the NanoBeam models and parts used for the buttons.

 

[Micromeister]

I will post a picture tonight with a different rail guide for the Nanobeam or Nanorail. It is made with an Plastristruct H-Beam and creates more of an Acme rail guide.

CW I think I ask this in the other Launch Rail thread; Do you know which Plastistruct H-Beam you found that fit? All the H and I beams at my local Hobby shop were either way to big or small to fit the NanoBeam rail. Did you have to do any Modifying to the section you found? Would sure like to know.
Thanks

 

[EXPjawa]

The head of the button binds inside the cavity in the rail. I've had to file the sides of the button head in a tapered shape to add clearance with the triangular internal section of the rail. It winds up having a somewhat trapezoidal shape from the front. I've also filed the sides of the collar, but that didn't improve anything. I don't know what you did that worked, but I installed the buttons just like I'd install mini buttons, except here, the buttons bind. If you put your finger under the rocket, you can gently push it along up the rail. But if you try to pull it quickly, the rocket pitches forward slightly and the head of the button binds within the rail and stops up. I think having nylon button heads doesn't help the matter, as the coefficient of friction of button to rail is greater than it would be if it were steel on aluminum. When the discussion came up last year, other people reported the same binding in the 10mm rail, so it isn't just me.

 

[Micromeister]

The head of the button binds inside the cavity in the rail. I've had to file the sides of the button head in a tapered shape to add clearance with the triangular internal section of the rail. It winds up having a somewhat trapezoidal shape from the front. I've also filed the sides of the collar, but that didn't improve anything. I don't know what you did that worked, but I installed the buttons just like I'd install mini buttons, except here, the buttons bind. If you put your finger under the rocket, you can gently push it along up the rail. But if you try to pull it quickly, the rocket pitches forward slightly and the head of the button binds within the rail and stops up. I think having nylon button heads doesn't help the matter, as the coefficient of friction of button to rail is greater than it would be if it were steel on aluminum. When the discussion came up last year, other people reported the same binding in the 10mm rail, so it isn't just me.

Could be the sleeve is too long. I have been adjusting the length of the sleeve length by about 1/16" on the Micro buttons so you do not have the slop your reporting. Had to do the same building the Nano buttons as well, started with 1/16" long but had to go to 1/32" to get everything to slide freely. However I haven't needed to touch most of the nylon head on the Micro buttons. I think the sleeve length may be your problem not the head thickness. Try shortening the sleeve length could solve the problem, I know now my only issue is with the shoulder sleeves I purchased from McMaster-Carr which are a tiny bit larger OD then the ones from Rail-Buttons. The micro rail button I purchased are the black ones, I haven't tried their white micro buttons as I was working with Natural Nylon stuff from McMaster.

 

[EXPjawa]

Well, that could be. I'll have to take a look at how that compares to the thickness of the rail lips, though it may mean cutting off nylon buttons that are already glued into the rockets.

The trouble with that fix is it isn't plug and play, nor is it particularly universal. By that I mean, I can certainly tune up my buttons to work on the rail I have. But - I bring my pad to club launches, and if one of the other guys wants to try micro buttons and throw his rocket on the rail I have, there's no guarantee it'll work (unless he's spent time tweaking his buttons to be compatible with my rail). Its sort of an interchangeable parts thing. The system has less value if it is compatible with everyone's hardware that should be similar. We're looking at building a pad to use mini and micro buttons for our club; again, I can see the value in it for a lot of applications. The system would work better if anyone could just buy and install the unmodified buttons with the expectation that they'll work as they should...

 

[cwbullet]

CW I think I ask this in the other Launch Rail thread; Do you know which Plastistruct H-Beam you found that fit? All the H and I beams at my local Hobby shop were either way to big or small to fit the NanoBeam rail. Did you have to do any Modifying to the section you found? Would sure like to know.
Thanks

90542 H COLUMN STYRENE 3/32.

It does not fit perfectly. You have to force it and it strips off the extra rail of each size and "machines" itself to the right size.

 

[TopRamen]

The head of the button binds inside the cavity in the rail. I've had to file the sides of the button head in a tapered shape to add clearance with the triangular internal section of the rail. It winds up having a somewhat trapezoidal shape from the front. I've also filed the sides of the collar, but that didn't improve anything. I don't know what you did that worked, but I installed the buttons just like I'd install mini buttons, except here, the buttons bind. If you put your finger under the rocket, you can gently push it along up the rail. But if you try to pull it quickly, the rocket pitches forward slightly and the head of the button binds within the rail and stops up. I think having nylon button heads doesn't help the matter, as the coefficient of friction of button to rail is greater than it would be if it were steel on aluminum. When the discussion came up last year, other people reported the same binding in the 10mm rail, so it isn't just me.

Mine were the same way, both clear and black versions, so now I just use metal screws. Problem solved.

 

[cwbullet]

The NANO rails will definitely take anything a micromax will through at it.


The 3/32 styrene H beam attached to the rocket. The first flight was a little under powered so the second one was with D21-7 and believe me it was no longer underpowered.


Image of the rocket on the rail. The thing I like about the nano beam / rail is that it does not need an adaptor. It will mount right in a standard 5/16 or 1/4 rod holder. There is absolutely no rod whip.


Life off #1


Lift of picture #2

Next time I fly, I might try an E or F. F240 anyone?

 

[rstaff3]

Thanks for posting this John.

 

[Micromeister]

Well, that could be. I'll have to take a look at how that compares to the thickness of the rail lips, though it may mean cutting off nylon buttons that are already glued into the rockets.

"The system would work better if anyone could just buy and install the unmodified buttons with the expectation that they'll work as they should"...

That quote is exactly part of the problem Rick:
People today think everything should be "Plug n Play". This is Model Rocketry: A scientific hobby, not a plug N play toy. Because Micro Rail Buttons are a new Item, such things often need to be tweeked a bit, particularly in the first generation of the product. Micro Buttons are just that. I'm perfectly Happy to do whatever I must to make such offerening work as I want to have this option for my smaller and MICRO models. Anyone buying such 1st generation produsts should be doing the same thing. If we find an issure, report it to the manufacturer, don't just complain about it.
I'm sure if we report such minor issues to Rail Buttons.com, the next batch will be corrected to give better clearence between Rail opening, slot and sleeve diameter & length. Have you reported your findings to them?
As someone already posted it is alway possible to simply chuck the nylon 2-56 pan head machine screws for Steel or Stainless Steel button head machine screws which have a narrower head profile.
Sorry if this post comes off as mean, That is not my intent but it really bothers me that folks today seem incapable of solving the simplest of mechanical issues.

 

[cwbullet]

I flew a rocket on an F240 of the Nanobeam. No a ounce of flex. It took three pieces mounted together with back and side plates.

I wish the photos would have turned out. I missed the entire flight.

 

[EXPjawa]

John, your post doesn't come across as mean, it comes across as condescending. It strikes me as funny as you decide to dig up a thread that's been inactive for a week just to post that sort of comment, since it really helps nothing. If I were building my own pad for flying my own rockets off of (which I've already done), I'd have no problem making some modifications and getting things all to work together. Don't assume I'm incapable, and yes, I had reported my findings early on when this subject was being discussed a year ago.

What I was eluding to before regarding the lack of plug-and-play is a bigger-picture issue. What I am working on is putting together a mid-power multiple-rail launch pad for my club. This set up will include changeable rails for mini buttons and micro buttons, as well as larger rod diameters. With that in mind, I need to use a rail that will work for not just my own, special, reworked micro buttons, but also those used by everyone else. And if Dave is using metal machine screws, you're using nylon buttons from railbutton.com, and Joe Rocketguy is using something else, I need something that will work with all of that. So far, the 10mm rail doesn't, at least not without specific set up that I can't expect everyone that's just trying them out to have figured out yet. That was my point, and that's why lack of universal interchange is an issue. You can return to your regular programming now.

 

[TopRamen]

John, your post doesn't come across as mean, it comes across as condescending. It strikes me as funny as you decide to dig up a thread that's been inactive for a week just to post that sort of comment, since it really helps nothing. If I were building my own pad for flying my own rockets off of (which I've already done), I'd have no problem making some modifications and getting things all to work together. Don't assume I'm incapable, and yes, I had reported my findings early on when this subject was being discussed a year ago.

What I was eluding to before regarding the lack of plug-and-play is a bigger-picture issue. What I am working on is putting together a mid-power multiple-rail launch pad for my club. This set up will include changeable rails for mini buttons and micro buttons, as well as larger rod diameters. With that in mind, I need to use a rail that will work for not just my own, special, reworked micro buttons, but also those used by everyone else. And if Dave is using metal machine screws, you're using nylon buttons from railbutton.com, and Joe Rocketguy is using something else, I need something that will work with all of that. So far, the 10mm rail doesn't, at least not without specific set up that I can't expect everyone that's just trying them out to have figured out yet. That was my point, and that's why lack of universal interchange is an issue. You can return to your regular programming now.

Railbuttons.com has been made aware of the problem months ago. I brought it up in a thread, then they chimed in and said please tell them about any issues we were having, and they would see what they can do to improve their product.
No changes to the micro-buttons have been announced, so they either have not implemented them yet or don't intend to make them.

I just find them un-useable in their current iteration myself, and I really like their 1010 buttons just fine, so I'm not taking a dig at the vendor.
Sometimes even a great vendor makes a less than great product, and that's just the way it is.

If John is happy to futz about "Tweaking" his buttons, that's fine, but I want greased lightning the second I first put my completed rocket on the rail for the first time.

One can argue about what you are allowed to fly on "Club Rails" or whatever, but I thankfully will never experience that problem, so it does not apply.

 

[TopRamen]

Here's the thread I was referencing, so Randy at Railbuttons.com is aware of the issue.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?124749-Micro-Button-Issue

 

[Micromeister]

John, your post doesn't come across as mean, it comes across as condescending. It strikes me as funny as you decide to dig up a thread that's been inactive for a week just to post that sort of comment, since it really helps nothing. If I were building my own pad for flying my own rockets off of (which I've already done), I'd have no problem making some modifications and getting things all to work together. Don't assume I'm incapable, and yes, I had reported my findings early on when this subject was being discussed a year ago.

What I was eluding to before regarding the lack of plug-and-play is a bigger-picture issue. What I am working on is putting together a mid-power multiple-rail launch pad for my club. This set up will include changeable rails for mini buttons and micro buttons, as well as larger rod diameters. With that in mind, I need to use a rail that will work for not just my own, special, reworked micro buttons, but also those used by everyone else. And if Dave is using metal machine screws, you're using nylon buttons from railbutton.com, and Joe Rocketguy is using something else, I need something that will work with all of that. So far, the 10mm rail doesn't, at least not without specific set up that I can't expect everyone that's just trying them out to have figured out yet. That was my point, and that's why lack of universal interchange is an issue. You can return to your regular programming now.

Didn't intend the post to be condecending, nor was I commenting about your individual skills. I was commenting about the gerneral "Plug N Play" mentality so often observed everywhere these days.
Like you, I'm our Clubs ROMCC - "Range Operations & Maintenance Committee Chair" Narhams Section 139, I've built and maintained all 3 of the clubs extensive Launch Range systems & equipment for 30 some of our 50 year history.
While most things work with most other things, In the Big Picture sometimes little things need to be tweeked to work properly.
What happens when a club members Launch lugs are too tight too fit the proper size Club Launch Rod? If that person wants to fly that rocket he either finds another lug that will fit the Club rod(s) or sands out the inside of the lug on the model. The same thing holds true for Rails and rail buttons.
Randy's (Micro Rail Buttons) are or were a first run offering: If they did not work exactly as expected the first slide down the rail than fix the buttons and report the findings to the supplier. That is exactly what I did last year and apparently you did also. By reporting the issue while continuing to use and evaluate the product making small changes as necessary is what beta testing is all about. There is Absolutely NO difference between an under size stock purchased round launch lug and a slightly oversize rail button sleeve or a sleeve that is a bit to long out of the package. Neither issue is a "no flight" conditions for that model, on that day If the owner has even the slightest amount of building skill. That is all I'm trying to get across to you and any other system builder who happens to read this thread.
Supply or have available all the Rods and RAIL available: I'm not pushing the 10mm Makerbeam rails but I do think they are as decent an extrusion as any size extruded aluminum rack shape currently available. The trouble is not with the rail. it's with the buttons as they were first produced. I'm happy to recommend any of the three currently available rails for use with MMX to Mid power rockets. Misumi 15mm x 2000mm rail, MakerBeam 10mm x 900 or 1500mm or now the NanoBeam 5mm rail. There may be a need to devise Rail Buttons to fit, or alter button parts for some of these rails but having the rails on site is a plus to any launch system.

 

[EXPjawa]

Well, for the record, if a club member builds with a standardized launch lug - a regular, commercially available part - then there's no reason for it to be too tight. That's exactly what I'm talking about here.

 

[cwbullet]

John,

I want to tank you for posting techniques and solutions.

I am a tinkerer. I enjoy experimenting with new things. I cannot count the times I have learned something from your posts.

As a club, my club is open to new ideas. We allow other to come in and launch with there own equipment or rails. I think it is important to be open to new ideas and to foster a learning environment. All too often we are closed minded to new ideas.

 

[Micromeister]

Well, for the record, if a club member builds with a standardized launch lug - a regular, commercially available part - then there's no reason for it to be too tight. That's exactly what I'm talking about here.

For the record; Just such things happen all the time. Too much paint applied, a bit to much glue or a stray bit of epoxy and of coarse slightly under wound tube. Standard manfacturing has tolerances +/-. Nothing is ever perfact.

 

[Micromeister]

John,

I want to tank you for posting techniques and solutions.

I am a tinkerer. I enjoy experimenting with new things. I cannot count the times I have learned something from your posts.

As a club, my club is open to new ideas. We allow other to come in and launch with there own equipment or rails. I think it is important to be open to new ideas and to foster a learning environment. All too often we are closed minded to new ideas.

OH man 10-4 on being a tinkerer, I'm one as well.
I agree 100% about folks being open to new ideas. Narhams is pertty much the same although we allow non-club members to use their personal Launchers connected to our Away pad controller. It's a Range Safety issue

Thanks for the info on the Plaststurct H-Beams! I finally found an on-line supplier that had them in stock. None of my local brick n mortar Hobby shops had them.

 

[EXPjawa]

For the record; Just such things happen all the time. Too much paint applied, a bit to much glue or a stray bit of epoxy and of coarse slightly under wound tube. Standard manfacturing has tolerances +/-. Nothing is ever perfact.

I understand manufacturing tolerances John, I'm an automotive engineer and regularly deal with things that have tolerances of 5 microns. What you & I are talking about are different orders of magnitude, but if you want to have the last word, fine. I'm done here.

 

[Micromeister]

CWBullet in an earlier post mentioned the Side & back plates used to connect 3- Nanobeam rails into a single 35.4" launch rail, but didn't have a photo handy.

I recently purchased a couple sets of the connecting plates, screws and tiny phillips screwdriver for Nanobeam rails. They do indeed make for a very rigid Nano Rail. below is a photo of the connection. I've only had a chance to use it to test fly minimum diameter .281" Micro Maxx models but they worked just fine using the slightly modified Plastruct #90542 3/32" White styrene H-beam segments as Launch lugs. I've been using 3/16" and 1/4" long segments in pairs on Micro models.
I recently added a couple photos of a pair of AIM-9b Sidewinder 1:17 scale models that are using these H-beam Lugs in their build thread.

I'm really very happy with the way both the 00-90 binder head Stainless Steel MS and these little White Styrene H-beam Lugs look on the our MMX models. Very small, inconspicuous lugs that almost look like scale launch shoes.