Lathe/Mill Combo

[pyrobob]

It sure comes in handy when you would have to order a special tool, but can grind one and harden and temper it in a few minutes. I just make sure I have extra tool steel on hand. You can learn a lot about machining from grinding your own profiles. Just the slightest change in rake can make a tool go from unusable to producing a mirror finish. After awhile you get pretty good at it and can get a nice grind on the first or second try.

Yeah, I learned that the hard way. From, "Dude, this bit doesn't work worth a damn!" to "Dude, the finish on this sucks but it actually works!" I have a fair amount of tool steel and a decent grinder but I don't think I have the dexterity - or more importantly the patience - to really pull it off consistently well. You're absolutely right, being able to come up with a tool on the fly without having to stop, delay a project, and ultimately order the perfect part from MSC, Enco, or whoever. This is even better when you break a bit and can just make up another one. I learned pretty quickly to have spares of spares of spares if I really wanted to see a project through without significant delay.

 

[G_T]

Sometimes the tooling is a chuck. Sometimes it is a large live center. A good chuck for the tailstock. Sometimes it is a boring bar. Rotary table for mill. Indexer. Etc. I'm not talking about the little bits which one can grind but the tools which would take bigger tools to make. Those tools cost a bit of money even if you find them used as I've managed to do, and they accumulate over time as they are needed for jobs. Often you don't need them but sometimes you do.

Gerald

 

[Binder Design]

I'm not talking about the little bits which one can grind but the tools which would take bigger tools to make.

Good point.

 

[pyrobob]

Sometimes the tooling is a chuck. Sometimes it is a large live center. A good chuck for the tailstock. Sometimes it is a boring bar. Rotary table for mill. Indexer. Etc. I'm not talking about the little bits which one can grind but the tools which would take bigger tools to make. Those tools cost a bit of money even if you find them used as I've managed to do, and they accumulate over time as they are needed for jobs. Often you don't need them but sometimes you do.

Gerald

Ohh yeah, that was the +++++++1 I was referring to on the tooling. I would consider the purchase of a mill or lathe the initiation cost of joining something like a country club. After paying the initiation cost, you now have the "privilege" of paying monthly dues plus any other a la carte perks you may desire if you actually want to play the game. Having the ability to cut your own bits out of tool steel has many advantages, but in no way can you get around live centers, bull nose live centers, steady rests, etc, etc, etc^n.

 

[Xrain]

With machine equipment mass is king. More mass means more rigidity of the machine, high rigidity means the larger cuts you can make into parts without losing tolerance or getting chatter. Any lathe that is light enough for you to pick up by yourself is going to really struggle cutting metal. Don't get me wrong, you can do it with them. You will just have to take very light cuts to keep within the ability of the machine. Aluminum we are talking as small as 0.003" or less. So if you are taking off half an inch of metal, you are looking at several hundred passes. The other thing with machining is you will get oil everywhere. Even if you use a water based cutting fluid, you will in that case have to use more way oil on the machine to keep it operating well. As the water based lubricant will cause corrosion on the machine if it is not protected well.

I had a friend who would buy the harbor freight lathes, go and machine some rocket parts in his dorm room and then bring the machine back in the return period. He said you had to go very very slow to do any metal parts, otherwise the machine would flex like a noodle.

The machine I would reccomend to the home shop, would be a monarch 10EE. Within its work area you will have a hard time finding a more accurate lathe, and it is wonderful to work with. It also has a very compact footprint and nice ones can be had for ~$6000 or less. On the other-hand it weighs 3500 lbs, which would probibly fall through a living room floor.


I think you are limiting your options for yourself too much. A makerspace would be good as others have suggested. But honestly the right full on machine shop would let your work there on your parts. This would be the best option for you since you could also have a chance to learn from someone who has been doing this as a career. A small mom and pop machine shop is usually the best for this kind of thing, as they are more willing to do things outside of the box.

How do I know this? Because this is what I did. I was making a strand burner a while ago (though it is currently on the backburner), which required machining a solid 6" rod of chromoly. There was only one shop in my entire city which had machines capable of doing this. I pretty much just walked in the door, and explained what I was working on. I also talked to him about his machines since I am a giant nerd about old machining equipment. We were able to come to an agreement for me to help him out on his projects and he would help me out on my projects. I was able to use my EE knowledge to help him make a radio control for one of his projects, and I learned a ton about machining in helping him on my projects. Heck I could of turned a 36" x 30' motor case there if I wanted. Also every machine shop that I will know of will say their machines are all busy, but if they like you your parts can almost always be fit in.

The older tradesmen are usually pretty happy to work with young people who are interested in what they do and willing to learn. As so few young people these days are.

 

[Brent]

Not in your average rocketeers budget, I had the pleasure of working with one of these bad boys a few years ago.

[video=youtube;qeg-6hLBWMs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeg-6hLBWMs[/video]

Probably the most versatile CNC machines I have ever worked on.

 

[pyrobob]

Not in your average rocketeers budget, I had the pleasure of working with one of these bad boys a few years ago.

[video=youtube;qeg-6hLBWMs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeg-6hLBWMs[/video]

Probably the most versatile CNC machines I have ever worked on.

Awesomeness. What's the price tag on one of these, minus the tooling of course?

 

[patelldp]

Reversible jaws are a desirable feature on chucks!

This is a 5" diameter bulkhead in my 13" swing South Bend. Back gears and only 1 HP motor got the O-ring grooves done!

 

[pyrobob]

Yeah, reversible jaws are a plus. Dan, how do you plan on parting the finished product? Or, are you going reverse the part and clean up the raw stock portion on the other end? I can't image myself ever parting anything great than 3", and maybe that's a stretch. If you can't already tell, I'm 'less than skilled' at parting... Also, it looks like you have ~1/2" of stock engaged in the jaws and I don't see a hole (or whatever those things are called) for a live/dead center. Were you taking really light cuts to ensure everything stayed square and the work piece didn't pop out of the chuck? Or maybe you have a Herculean hydraulic chuck?

 

[Binder Design]

As long as we're showing off. 6" diameter nozzle carrier, turned on a HF 12X36.

 

[amarillo_rocket]

Precision Matthews is very similiar to the Grizzly G0704. The main difference is Precision Matthews does a very good checkout of the mill to make sure it is within spec. The CNC mill parts were made by Dave Clements who did a fantastic job. The electoncis were purchased from Automation Technologies and I use Mach 3 CAM software. I can PM you Dave Clements contact info if you want it. Total cost to convert to CNC around $1,600 if I remember correctly. I put off the conversion for a while thinking it would be very difficult. It was actually very simple and was not very complicated. Precision Matthews, Dave Clements and Automation Technologies have great support. I emailed all of them several times prior to making my decision and during the built. Normally they responded within 3-4 hours or called me on the phone. Overall it was a surprisingly good experience to convert the mill to CNC.

 

[pyrobob]

Precision Matthews is very similiar to the Grizzly G0704. The main difference is Precision Matthews does a very good checkout of the mill to make sure it is within spec. The CNC mill parts were made by Dave Clements who did a fantastic job. The electoncis were purchased from Automation Technologies and I use Mach 3 CAM software. I can PM you Dave Clements contact info if you want it. Total cost to convert to CNC around $1,600 if I remember correctly. I put off the conversion for a while thinking it would be very difficult. It was actually very simple and was not very complicated. Precision Matthews, Dave Clements and Automation Technologies have great support. I emailed all of them several times prior to making my decision and during the built. Normally they responded within 3-4 hours or called me on the phone. Overall it was a surprisingly good experience to convert the mill to CNC.

Barre, yes please forward any intel you may have. I'd like to take a closer look. Thanks again for the follow up.

 

[pyrobob]

As long as we're showing off. 6" diameter nozzle carrier, turned on a HF 12X36.
View attachment 277450

Really nice. It looks like you cut the glands and forward portion of the carrier first, then flipped it around to finish off the aft end with a taper and some other things. Question; assuming that's a 3 jaw chuck, did you have any problems maintaining ~0 on the dial after re-chucking? I never seem to have much luck getting things to zero out if I have to remove a part and then replace it back into a 3 jaw chuck. Of course, 4 jaw I can always zero out with patience but no joy on a 3 jaw. Thanks.

 

[ChuckH]

Hey Steve, I found a mill for your living room

 

[Binder Design]

Question; assuming that's a 3 jaw chuck, did you have any problems maintaining ~0 on the dial after re-chucking? I never seem to have much luck getting things to zero out if I have to remove a part and then replace it back into a 3 jaw chuck. Of course, 4 jaw I can always zero out with patience but no joy on a 3 jaw. Thanks.

I used a four jaw for machining operations. I set it aside for a few days to make some other parts with the three jaw chuck. Then chucked it up in the three jaw to put the emery finish on it by hand just before shipping it out.

 

[pyrobob]

I used a four jaw for machining operations. I set it aside for a few days to make some other parts with the three jaw chuck. Then chucked it up in the three jaw to put the emery finish on it by hand just before shipping it out.

Cool, thanks. That makes sense. While we're at it, were you able to taper that part (or for that matter, the glands) without the use of a bull nose live center or a center rest? Or maybe your 4 jaw has more surface area than the 3 jaw I see. I've been bitten a few times by getting a little too 'aggressive' without support opposite of the chuck .

 

[Binder Design]

IIRC, I did the whole thing without the use of a live center. I can't take super heavy cuts with my lathe anyway. The bore took a long time, it was very boring, lol.

 

[Igotnothing]

I used a four jaw for machining operations. I set it aside for a few days to make some other parts with the three jaw chuck. Then chucked it up in the three jaw to put the emery finish on it by hand just before shipping it out.

:bang: All these years unbolting one chuck to bolt on the other, and it never occured to me to chuck the 4 in the 3.

'Course, if it comes off at speed, :y:

 

[Binder Design]

:bang: All these years unbolting one chuck to bolt on the other, and it never occured to me to chuck the 4 in the 3.

'Course, if it comes off at speed, :y:

Just to clarify, I didn't do that....that would be a really bad idea.

 

[pyrobob]

The bore took a long time, it was very boring, lol.

:lol:

I've been there before, let me tell you. It's amazing how much time goes by before you realize, "Damn, I was standing there all that time???"

 

[taiwanluthiers]

Avoid combo lathe/mills because they'll suck really hard at both.

I got a Grizzly G0785. It's about the same size/weight (or a little above) as their entry level G8689 mill but it's significantly better. The included downfeed DRO helps a lot. Also the gibs and stuff are tapered and are a lot easier to adjust than the mini mill. Would have loved to get the G0704 but it was a bit too heavy for me. Only thing I hated about the G0785 is the really limited Z axis. It means if you use a regular milling vise or the included drill chuck, there will be no space for anything.

If I got a lathe I was thinking of the G4000 or a step above (the 10x22 one) but honestly I don't know if it's going to be too big as well. I live on 3rd floor apartment and it's shared, meaning I can't have the tool in the living room. I thought of the lathe simply because the limited Z axis on my mill means I can't use accessories like boring bar to bore large holes, but it could be done on the lathe.

As for moving them, has anyone tried moving them in pieces? Like remove the tailstock, motor, bed, etc. so that you don't need an army to move it? The mill was hard enough to move and it's only 165 lbs! (it is rigid enough that I can take off 3mm of aluminum in one go, though the surface finish is not that good)

As for makerspace/hackerspace, there is one in Austin. Unfortunately membership fee is over 60 a month, and they don't even have really big machines either (they have a benchtop lathe, and a Grizzly G8689 mill). For the price I'd decided that I was better off buying the tool. Furthermore it was more than 2 hours bus ride away (I have no car) meaning I could really only go there 2x a month... It would be great for woodworking though because I find woodworking in a small space is much harder than metalworking in a small space. I've seen pictures of some really small machine shops in the bedroom of one apartment (a bench with a lathe on top, mill in the bottom, etc.). I mean, you're not going to create clouds of airborne wood particles that would clog up air ducts and cause allergy. All it would do is throw metal shaving everywhere that is easily vacuumed up.

 

[Pat_B]

I have a Sherline lathe with the milling attachment. If you only have a need for small parts then you can't beat a small lathe. Sherline provides excellent support and replacements parts are readily available. I bought mine used many years ago and keep it in great shape.

Here's some examples of some of the smaller projects you can do on a Sherline https://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/

 

[Xrain]

I've seen pictures of some really small machine shops in the bedroom of one apartment (a bench with a lathe on top, mill in the bottom, etc.).

The head machinist at my old uni had the most amazing home machine shop I had ever seen for its size.
It was a very small single car garage, in it he had a Monarch 10EE lathe (4000 lbs) a full size Sharpe knee mill (another 4000 lbs) with power feeds, 3 axis DRO, and pneumatic auto tool changer. Full size belt sander, band saw, tool sharpener, as well as a very thorough array of tooling. The impressive bit is it didn't feel cramped. The garage had a oil changing pit in the floor, and he kept the phase converter and air compressor in there. Also all the equipment was maintained in an almost new condition (including the almost 70 year old lathe which he had rebuilt from the ground up).

You don't need a large space to have a very capable machine shop, you just need a concrete floor.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

Also need lots of money because those equipment don't come cheap.

 

[amarillo_rocket]

Pyrobob, I sent you a PM with the info on the Precision Matthews CNC conversion kit. He also makes a kit for Grizzly. One of the decisions I had to make after buying a mill was do I want to learn to be a machinist or do I want to turn out parts so I can build rockets and robots. I decided with the amount of time I have learning to be a machinist was not practical which is why I converted to CNC. I can relatively quickly draw a design in my CAD program and easily make the part on the mill. I do admire people with machining skills but I don't have the time to learn what they know. This may need to be one of the considerations you make when purchasing a mill. How easily can I convert the mill to CNC and what is the cost if I decide learning the ins and outs of machining is not what I want to do.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

Does anyone make CNC conversion kits for G0758 mill? I know the G0704 is popular for this but the G0758 is similar to G0704 except it's a bit scaled down.

I would like to make stuff, and I think with CNC I'd be able to skip buying a rotary table and a bunch of other expensive stuff... just draw up an object and it would make it.

As much as I'd like to buy a 10x22 lathe, only thing I'd want to do with it is to do some action/gunsmithing work, and that size is simply too small for that. Anything smaller and all you'd be able to make is toys.

 

[pyrobob]

Pyrobob, I sent you a PM with the info on the Precision Matthews CNC conversion kit. He also makes a kit for Grizzly. One of the decisions I had to make after buying a mill was do I want to learn to be a machinist or do I want to turn out parts so I can build rockets and robots. I decided with the amount of time I have learning to be a machinist was not practical which is why I converted to CNC. I can relatively quickly draw a design in my CAD program and easily make the part on the mill. I do admire people with machining skills but I don't have the time to learn what they know. This may need to be one of the considerations you make when purchasing a mill. How easily can I convert the mill to CNC and what is the cost if I decide learning the ins and outs of machining is not what I want to do.

Cool, thanks Barre'.

 

[Igotnothing]

Just to clarify, I didn't do that....that would be a really bad idea.

Whew! I misread and went off riding a pronoun in the wrong direction.

 

[Nick@JET]

Prophecy, your obviously a very smart and freakishly driven person which is very cool to read about your products and what you do to finish them. In sure most on this forum who is paying attention know that.

Better lathes are not small.
I have purchased many tooling items over the years with a couple businesses and something I've had a hard time learning "Buy once, cry once" buy the right thing the first time. I've spent more time and $ trying to buy something and use it for what it can't do. Tabletops probably are not going to deliver the performance you want. A combo can't do either worth a crap unless your willing to sand, grind etc slot more than anticipated... Much like my fillets on my latest rocket

If your going to cut steel I would REALLY stay away from a small large/mill. Wood, plastics, Alum maybe. Also many all cheap lathe / mill have horrible tolorence, like so bad it can be hard to even make the part you want.

A 110v small Southbend 12" lathe that is decent can be had for $800 but VERY heavy.i wouldn't go any smaller IMO. But who knows, maybe you are renting space somewhere.

By the way, I too am interested in a small tabletop, but everyone I've talked to that has had or used one that will truly admit, almost all say...piece of crap.

Bet there maybe some good machinest right here on this site that might work with you and ship...maybe even some that have answered this thread. At the end of the day you might be $ ahead until you have access to some more space and actually by a good lathe/mill.

Just my 2 cents, it's worth what you paid for it