Lathe/Mill Combo

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prophecy

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When you're three years out of college paying market price, out-of-pocket for every piece of every project you pursue, you become prohibitively frugal. When it gets so bad that you're spending your Saturday nights following a Craigslist ad to a storage unit an hour outside of town to try and save money on machining, it might be time to control your own fate and invest in a modest lathe/mill setup. Now that each of my projects are single-use and each accrues a four-figure machining bill, it's killing me and my time has come. I need to make a shouldered nosecone tip and some transition rings for TiNY, and there literally couldn't be a simpler machining project, so the opportunity is ripe. Becoming a competent machinist isn't a bad resume addition either, and is something I've wanted to do for a while. When I reached the same conclusion about driving stick, I bought a stick shift truck for $1500 and sat in the dealership parking lot until I could figure out how to get it out of the lot (only stalled it once). Three days later, I had it down. Only way to do it. Felt great, and now I look at people who can't drive stick funny because it was literally that easy. Anyway, I've been reading up on these, and wanted to share some preliminary conclusions I've reached and crowdsource opinions from those more knowledgeable than I:

Avoid Harbor Freight. It seems that Casper's Harbor Freight mini-lathe died on him - I've sunk thousands of dollars into HF tools over the years, and the answer is always that they're generally fine and you feel smart for not paying exorbitant DeWalt prices. My friend recently had a $300 drill press get creaky on him, no biggie - but if it's a $1,000 tool and I'm stuck with the good old Central Machinery nonexistent warranty, I'll be pissed. My thought is to have a bit of foresight and shoot for a half-step above Harbor Freight. Interestingly, their prices aren't much cheaper than seemingly better other options - Grizzly, Bolton

Shoot for a size above benchtop. I don't fly snap ring cases, so this will be used almost exclusively for making nozzles, closures, nosecone tips, etc. It seems that it's a struggle on a 7x12 making things larger than 3" or so in diameter, so I'll likely shoot for a 9x20.

Prioritize an out-of-the-box solution over a reclamation project. To each their own, but this will be going in the living room of my apartment, so I'm shooting for a smaller tool anyway, and the attitude here seems to be you can get a bigger used tool for the same price as a smaller new tool. In my current situation, if I need a hammer, I go to Walmart and buy a hammer, so I'm not in a position to be bringing a quarter-ton piece of equipment into my apartment only to have to buy tools one-by-one to rip it apart and tinker with it. I'd rather have a 200 pound piece of equipment ready to go out of the box. Buy tools to fit your application, this is mine.

Lathe/mill combo? In my recent projects where I've outsourced the machining, the lathe operations and mill operations were almost a perfect 50/50 split - seems a decent benchtop version of each can be had for ~600, but in for the sake of simplicity, maybe something like this is better? https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Bolton-Tools-16-x-20-Precision-Combo-Metal-Lathe-Mill-Drill-Machine-BT500-/252164997975 Seems there's a Grizzly option that's roughly the same price, and an added benefit is that it's a pretty sizeable lathe for the application.

Thoughts, please, and I'll aim to push the button next paycheck.

-prophecy
 
Have you considered looking into one of those maker space like clubs? I wish they had one up here, however I can't find one if it exists. They tend to have the big gear and you don't have the clutter in your living spaces.
 
A) the projects you've identified aren't literally the easiest thing...cutting 5" diameter thin-wall rings with a taper isn't necessarily easy on smaller lathes.

B) Be careful, HF=Grizzly often times.

C) I've been a strong proponent of buying old iron for a couple of reasons...buy it once and be done with it...more functionality for less money...and because it's an investment. Odds are that if you buy a South Bend or a lesser Craftsman it will retain its value. HF is throwaway and I've never believed in that for the most important tool to a rocketeer, personally.

D) Lathes are great. Lathes also have a learning curve, and just like anything else you won't be cranking out 5" hardware tomorrow.

My advice is this...feasibly assume your maximum diameter that you see going. Maybe 5" is affordable when outsourcing, but with a lathe will you want to go 8"? Then, assume your max length capability. Then, you'll need to consider features you like (quick change gears, chucks, taper attachments). Finally, your power plant...1HP? 1.5HP? That's all driven by your dimensional needs.

In short? Give me a call sometime.
 
I've ownedd a Craftsman 609, a Shoptask 3n1, a Enco Mill/Drill, a Millrite (2/3 sized bridgeport clone), a 12"x36" belt drive lathe (similar to Enco, HF, MSC), and now I have a Grizzly G0704 benchtop mill converted to CNC. I've also run a Smithy 3n1.

I would not even bother to look at a lathe smaller than the 9x20. Even the 9x20 is going to struggle with the projects you'll want to do. There are a few newer 10x22 lathes out and that's where I would start looking if I wanted a new machine. You could also look around for a decent 10" lathe on CL. There should be machines available near you. The problem is that any "decent" lathe is going to be too heavy/noisy to run in your apartment.

The 3n1 machines are neither a good mill nor a good lathe.

Now once you have a machine you'll need tooling. You'll easily spend as much on tooling as you will on the machine. I've spent several hundred dollars this year alone. Most of that was consumables (end mills and drills).

In short, I agree with Al, join Techshop or its equivalent in your area.

Feel free to PM me here or on FB if you want to talk.
 
Oh yeah, when you're sizing lathes make sure you understand what the sizes actually mean. IE, 9" is the diameter from the spindle center to the ways, 20" is from the spindle face usually to the end of the bed. A 9x20 will probably hold 4" in the chuck. My 12x36 could just barely chuck 8".
 
I would not even bother to look at a lathe smaller than the 9x20. Even the 9x20 is going to struggle with the projects you'll want to do. There are a few newer 10x22 lathes out and that's where I would start looking if I wanted a new machine. You could also look around for a decent 10" lathe on CL. There should be machines available near you. The problem is that any "decent" lathe is going to be too heavy/noisy to run in your apartment.

+1

The 3n1 machines are neither a good mill nor a good lathe.

+1

Now once you have a machine you'll need tooling. You'll easily spend as much on tooling as you will on the machine. I've spent several hundred dollars this year alone. Most of that was consumables (end mills and drills).

++++++++++++++1 and then another +1

The big thing that I wonder about is actually delivery of a freight package to a mid/high rise apartment. I know the real estate industry pretty well, whether equity, debt, or PM's. I can only imagine what they'll think once they find you receiving delivery and carting a reasonably heavy piece of equipment from their receiving dock (if they have one), and up their elevators.... Maybe your community is cool but it's something to consider.
 
Stay away from the combo. I don't know of one person that is happy with them. Kind of like a swiss army knife. It might barely get the job done if that's all you have.
 
Stay away from the combo. I don't know of one person that is happy with them. Kind of like a swiss army knife. It might barely get the job done if that's all you have.
I wouldn't try to make a living with my Shoptask 3 in 1 but I am very happy with it. I've made steel nozzles. Wood nose cones. Motor cases (not snap ring). Wood and FG c entering rings and blkds.
Vinyl bathroom trim. Keep the wife happy and make stuff for her first. Then "the tool" is OK.
 
HF=Grizzly, only on Grizzly's very bottom grade lathe and mill. Anything above Grizzly's cheapest in those is mile better than any HF power tool, also if something breaks usually the part from Grizzly is on the way in 24-36 hours from when you order it, good luck getting parts from HF as their products seem to run model to model from different manufacturers and HF is constantly changing which manufacturers they carry. Some of Grizzly's stuff is actually clones of older US made equipment (at least some of the woodworking machines are) for example I have a 20 year old plus Rockwell Delta Wood Shaper that's nearly identical in every way to Grizzly's $400 unit, so exact that I buy Grizzly replacement parts to fix it and accessorize it, you do have to watch as the Grizz's are Metric threads and the Rockwell is Standard threads. I own several pieces of Grizz power tools and for the price they are near impossible to beat,yeah they aren't Powermatic or Delta UniSaw but they are not far enough off that a person on a budget can't get a decent enough tool. I do of course prefer US made when I can get it, newer tools are usually out of my price range.
 
I use a Bolton 10x22 lathe and it does a good job for the things I need to make. I think it's a good lathe for the money. I also use a Precision Mathews PM-25MV mill which I converted to CNC. I am also please with the mill. The CNC conversion was probably one of the simplest things I have ever done. I put it off for a while thinking it would be difficult but it was very easy to do other than getting the leadscrew out of the head. Grizzly makes also make a very decent product. The mill will meet my needs for several years. I do wish I had a larger mill like 9x30 or slightly bigger. I have a 5G 76mm case that is a little out of spec and I could have solved the problem but my lathe is too small. Instead I used an automotive hone to remove some of the material inside the 3" CF airframe so the motor would fit. My only regret with any tool purchase is buying cheap. Good tools cost money so buy the best tool you can for your budget.
 
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I realize we're talking major investment in dollars here, but...

I've stood in front of a lot of lathes. Monarch, LeBlonde, South Bend, Taiwanese Enco, and mainland Chinese knock-offs.

Buying junk machines is like buying a boat. There are two happy days. The day you get it, and the day you get rid of it.

Buy quality, buy once.
 
so this will be used almost exclusively for making nozzles

this will be going in the living room of my apartment

And you thought cleaning up G10 dust was a pain. You need to move, lol.
 
I use a Bolton 10x22 lathe and it does a good job for the things I need to make. I think it's a good lathe for the money. I also use a Precision Mathews PM-25MV mill which I converted to CNC. I am also please with the mill. The CNC conversion was probably one of the simplest things I have ever done. I put it off for a while thinking it would be difficult but it was very easy to do other than getting the leadscrew out of the head. Grizzly makes also make a very decent product. The mill will meet my needs for several years. I do wish I had a larger mill like 9x30 or slightly bigger. I have a 5G 76mm case that is a little out of spec and I could have solved the problem but my lathe is too small. Instead I used an automotive hone to remove some of the material inside the 3" CF airframe so the motor would fit. My only regret with any tool purchase is buying cheap. Good tools cost money so buy the best tool you can for your budget.

Never heard of Precision Mathews before but it looks cool. Did they have a CNC conversion kit available? I didn't see one on their website. I've given some thought to Jet mills and if the wife isn't looking, a Tormach setup. It would definitely be nice to upgrade my current milling setup...
 
I feel for your landlord. I might go through the roof, if I walked into one of my tenants' living rooms and found a lathe. It's going to make a huge mess! But....as long as you aren't renting from me, good luck!
 
To each their own, but this will be going in the living room of my apartment,

One thing you need to know, just running the machine will transfer vibrations throughout the building. If you get any chatter or resonance, that will increase by a large magnitude. Many times while I'm machining the OD of a tube, it will resonate so loudly that I need earplugs. It can really scream sometimes.
 
One thing you need to know, just running the machine will transfer vibrations throughout the building. If you get any chatter or resonance, that will increase by a large magnitude. Many times while I'm machining the OD of a tube, it will resonate so loudly that I need earplugs. It can really scream sometimes.

Agreed. My house is a single story with the lathe in the basement and I can't run the thing when anyone is sleeping.

You may also consider that running a 1HP motor on a circuit with unknown load sharing could pop circuits regularly. It's just not advisable to do this.

The only thing that you can get into an apartment in a reasonable fashion is a Harbor Freight desktop, and you're obviously capped out at smaller components than Steve is planning. For example, my lathe and 2 people is at or above the max capacity of a standard elevator.
 
One thing you need to know, just running the machine will transfer vibrations throughout the building. If you get any chatter or resonance, that will increase by a large magnitude. Many times while I'm machining the OD of a tube, it will resonate so loudly that I need earplugs. It can really scream sometimes.

Very true. I was machining the OD of a 3" tube just to make it look pretty and it was amazingly loud! I had to wear ear protection.
 
One other thing to consider, the "aroma" of machining equipment especially during operation. If you're using lubrication for threads for example, it gives off quite a 'fragrance' and it will follow you like a cheap cologne. If the noise and vibrations don't give you away, the smell will probably make up for it. It's not terrible by any means; but let's just say it's 'unusual' in a multifamily setting....
 
Thanks to everybody for the replies. Appreciate the varied perspective on different brands, very good to know as this is a significant investment.

As far as the "wait, you're not a middle aged man doing this in your suburban home with a garage? This sounds like a cause for concern" comments, there's a reason I stated clearly in the first post I was looking for a table-mount unit I could move by myself (200 pounds or less), all of which come with single phase motor with a current draw similar to my floor-mounted sander. I stated that I had little interest in a large, old industrial lathe reclamation project for these reasons, which people have gone on to suggest regardless.

I'm far from an irresponsible neighbor or tenant. I have neighbors that play loud music all through the night on weeknights and neighbors that smoke in the hallway and neighbors whose dogs pee on the staircase. Machining graphite and small pieces of barstock produces far less harmonics than machining cases, which I stated I wouldn't be doing, and all of the stuff I've done and will do is far quieter and less disruptive than the antics of my neighbors. Just because it's not the normal course of action doesn't automatically commute it to inappropriate behavior. The guy who taught me to machine nozzles taught me a neat trick for controlling dust that is remarkably effective, and the messes will be infinitely less than what I dealt with beveling fins and sanding ablative on my Balls project.

Look, my choices are to work with what I have or not pursue rocketry at all. I know plenty of people who would (and have) made the choice to just bag all of it, but I choose to follow a different path. Two years ago for Balls, my nozzle was machined to the wrong spec and I discovered this when loading the motor the day I was to leave. The choice was cancel the trip or figure it out. Everybody said any choice but the former was irresponsible, one guy even said he would laugh when the nozzle flew off the drill press and broke into bits. I chose to figure it out, friction fit a hole saw in the throat with masking tape and chucked it up on the drill press at the lowest RPM. It worked, and my trip was saved. This past year when my project partner (and shop owner) pulled out of Balls just as we were to get going on our project, my choice was to cancel my own trip because of someone else's change of heart or to figure it out and control my own destiny. I ponied up to cover all the costs myself, built a sounding rocket with tools I bought at Wal-Mart, tuned out everybody telling me to do otherwise, and had a perfect flight to 62k'. Video here:

[video=youtube;Hc2PiaGAP38]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc2PiaGAP38[/video]

All depends on how bad you want it, and the resourceful application of common sense, regardless of how dissonant it is from the average course of action, isn't by default "irresponsible" or "ill-advised." Number of complaints from my neighbors during that entire project: 0.

I work the "borrow a space" angle harder than anyone I've ever met - I drove 860 miles the other weekend to mix propellant. For other things, I work with what I have, use common sense, and don't take no for an answer. Sanding G10 and ablative in my apartment led to weeks of time on my knees cleaning it up, but it's spotless now, and that was my choice and my problem alone to deal with.

Prior to Aeronaut this year (before I had reluctantly accepted my complete and total lack of a suburban workspace), my buddy said I could use his shop starting Monday night when he got home from work, Tuesday when he was off, and ending Wednesday morning when he left for work. So, I showed up Monday at 7pm with a case of Red Bull and fired up Burnsim. Had a 75/10k batch of propellant in the mixer by 9, and finished pouring the motor at 4am Tuesday morning. Passed out until 8, at which point I cut the grains, drilled the cores, and glued the grains in the liner. That evening, I loaded the motor and had it buttoned up by midnight. Then it was time to start the rocket! Spent from midnight to 3am figuring out an upper section/av bay, and then at 3am found an old fincan laying around and got working on my layups. Under vacuum bag at 5am Wednesday, at 6:30 the epoxy was rock hard and I got in the car and drove 1,000 miles to meet Manny on his way out to Black Rock. Drove home overnight Wednesday into Thursday, caught a 6am flight to Black Rock Thursday morning. Arrived in Gerlach Thursday night, took Friday to catch my breath, and flew the rocket at 7am Saturday morning. Video here:

[video=youtube;3kO6-KlTL7I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kO6-KlTL7I[/video]

Of course, the great irony here was that my accelerated timeline on the Aeronaut project was 100% bred out of a refusal to work in my apartment, and I was called irresponsible by more than one person for building "such an ambitious project in such a rush." When I changed tactics for Sunday Silent the next month to avoid having to do things in such a rush again, I was all of a sudden an irresponsible tenant, instead.

I've told these vignettes before, so I apologize if they're repetitive, but the unsolicited patronizing against my nonstandard methods is equally repetitive. Know your limits, know your situation, know what you're doing and don't judge what others are doing. If I'd listened to any number of people, I would have flown 0 rockets this year because I live in an apartment and ran out of garages to borrow. Instead, I had two trips to Black Rock with two of the best flights I've had in two decades of doing it. I apologize for the rant, but I really can't stand when people assume negligence and fabricate their own schadenfreude because someone's situation and mentality are different than their own. One day I'll be married with a mortgage and a garage and believe me, I'll be the happiest camper in the world. But, that day is not today, and I plan to continue to pursue my goals in the meantime. Now, I'll go chug another cup of coffee because my upstairs neighbor enjoys attaching his subwoofer to his XBox for a more realistic Call of Duty experience.

Steve Heller
 
Find a machining club, or rent space. An apartment living room is not the place for a lathe or mill.

For the type of rocketry you do, I wouldn't consider a lathe smaller than a 12"x36" and preferably with a gap bed. That's what you will find you need to do the type of machining you want to do. It will weigh in excess of 1,000 pounds and possibly 2,000 pounds if it has a good base. You can get some good deals on used lathes on ebay, and many will include tooling, which will exceed the cost of a new lathe if you really have all the tooling you need.

I would look for a used Bridgeport mill. More of these mills were made than any other in the US over the past 75 years, and spare parts are still available. Bridgeports can be had cheap, but they weight 2000 pounds, but they can be broken down into 3 parts for moving. ebay is your friend. Again, tooling will cost more than the mill so used is the way to go.

You will also need a grinder if you make/sharpen your own tools. You will also need a bandsaw to cut you stock.

Bottom line is that it sounds like you don't have the space to have the types of machines you need to do your kind of rocketry. I'm guessing if you look around, you could be able to find a place for a couple hundred dollars a month that has machines you could use, and IMO that is a much better option for a cash strapped, space limited, recent college graduate.

Of course, you could find an employer that has all this equipment that you could use afterhours. Worked for me... :wink:

Bob
 
I've told these vignettes before, so I apologize if they're repetitive, but the unsolicited patronizing against my nonstandard methods is equally repetitive.

We get it. You are young and we are middle aged fat guys working out of garages and basements. We are just trying to look out for you when your neighbor turns you in and your landlord shows up and sees your metalworking equipment set up in his building and kicks you out on your ass. That is all.
 
I've done some work on a 3" hybrid on a 12" Atlas that a friend owns... I'd rather be doing it on a bigger heavier machine. Even a 12" Atlas is a pretty flexible machine. Mass and rigidity allows much faster machining (often, not always) and more precise machining (often, not always).

The big money is on the tooling, even if you buy it used like I do.

Some time ago...

Well, my friend had the 12" Atlas. It needed some work. He also had a Chinese benchtop mill. It worked, for small stuff. We were both interested in machining. I shopped for most of a year and bought a used Bridgeport with chrome ways and little evident wear, for $1200 or $1500, I forget which. He sent his Atlas in for rebuilding, and sold the benchtop mill. The Bridgeport is on a concrete slab - his basement - along with the Atlas. We have assorted tooling between the two of us. I've used the Bridgport vertical mill a lot. It is a workhorse. It doesn't even notice machining that would have made the benchtop mill struggle. But it is old... I had to do a lot of cleaning and adjustment when setting it up. Pieces are very heavy. I think the table is perhaps 300#? Anyway about 1700# or more without a vice attached. We modified a trailer to haul it, used a crane to get it off the trailer, j-bar to move it, then reassembled... It was a lot of work. Now the upper head needs rebuilding - as expected due to age. But I've lots of hours machining time on it for various projects. It's been well worth it. Note though that the Bridgeport J-head mills are considered light duty mills, but are heavy duty for most of our uses.

Point is, do you have a friend who is also into machining and has a thick concrete slab that can take the weight and mess of heavy iron? Consider a partnership.

Gerald
 
I've got very little money in lathe tooling. I buy tool steel, grind the profile I need, heat treat it with a torch and quench in oil, then temper and quench in water. But then you need a good grinding wheel, torch or furnace and a lot of patience. Old school.
 
I've got very little money in lathe tooling. I buy tool steel, grind the profile I need, heat treat it with a torch and quench in oil, then temper and quench in water. But then you need a good grinding wheel, torch or furnace and a lot of patience. Old school.

I totally wish I had paid closer attention to that in school; that's what we first used starting out. No special ready to go out of the box carbide stuff (which is of course what I use now...).
 
There are home shop machinist clubs. I know for a fact that there are some in TX. Go to a couple meetings, present your project and I bet you could find a retired guy that would do it because he enjoys it.
 
Not something you want to do in a living room.......

Bob

I think that's been beaten to death by now. Just offering some tips that offset the advice that you'll have more money into tooling than the machinery itself. Not necessarily true, but you do need some extra equipment to pull it off.
 
I totally wish I had paid closer attention to that in school; that's what we first used starting out. No special ready to go out of the box carbide stuff (which is of course what I use now...).

It sure comes in handy when you would have to order a special tool, but can grind one and harden and temper it in a few minutes. I just make sure I have extra tool steel on hand. You can learn a lot about machining from grinding your own profiles. Just the slightest change in rake can make a tool go from unusable to producing a mirror finish. After awhile you get pretty good at it and can get a nice grind on the first or second try.
 
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