Large Streamers for HPR recovery

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Coop

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I'm a big fan of streamers. I use them all the time as apogee events for DD rockets, made a few of these for friends, but have recently been looking into them as primary recovery devices for L1-sized rockets. Most, I've found, can accommodate a streamer large enough to bring them down at reasonable recovery speeds (I generally shoot for around 17 FPS). Recovering under streamer definitely has an advantage over a chute --if in no other area, it's REAL easy to see and visually track.

Problem is, there's damned few places one can purchase a durable streamer. I know of one manufacturer with a line of them, but they aren't anywhere near large enough for true HPR recovery. So, I figured I'd start making them.

I'd considered mylar, like that which is used in the LPR rockets, but the stuff tends to rip--also, holds its folds extremely well... which is good to increase drag, if you have lateral folds, but if you have to vertically fold it to fit it in the recovery compartment, this is a problem. I briefly considered Nomex, but it's expensive and difficult to find--and its primary advantage (heat resistance) is pretty well defeated unless one uses a Nomex thread as well--and that's even more difficult to find and more expensive than the material. This led me back to nylon.

I started with a 4" by 40", for LPR, because that's what I thought a streamer Had To Be... that the golden ratio was 10:1, because, Hell, that's what everyone uses, so it's gotta be right. Turns out, I found I got better results if I went with a 12:1 L:W ratio rather than the 10:1. In doing research on why it's 10:1, I discovered that ratio was from a paper published in the early 70's, and that ratio was recommended for PAPER streamers, not nylon. The 6" version I made in both ratios gave me a slower descent rate without adding significant weight, so I adopted the 12:1 as my standard with this material.

After a lot of trial and error, and figuring out not only how to make these well (and lighter, and less bulky), but also how to predict their descent rates at a given weight, and what tube they'd fit in and deploy well out of, at Red Glare 18 I recovered my G-force under a 24" by 24' streamer. It had flown on an H... 135, I think? A little 29mm white motor. I forget; I was more into the recovery than the motor on that flight, to be honest.

I figured that one predisposed to argument, or vehemently against streamers for HPR for reasons incomprehensible to me, might justifiably argue that the G-Force is not, truly, a HPR rocket, but rather a MPR with some HPR capabilities if modified for this purpose; that the stock-built G-force is made for G motors, thus the title of the kit. While I would balk at this, and point out that most G-forces I've seen --indeed, most kits-- are modified to some degree to suit the flier's intent, there's no denying that, if built stock, it's supposed to take G motors. So the Red Glare flight I'll consider a 95% of accomplishing the goal.

I have a nearly-stock Minie-Magg here (I added an Aeropack, and used epoxy in construction). A couple of them, actually. One's painted, even, and I did my L1 on it back in 09. There's also a King Kraken I've got sitting around that's never flown on anything smaller than a H (mostly I's). These, surely, qualify as L1 rockets, would you not agree?

Of course, they're a bit heavier than the G-force, as they use thick tubes, heavier nosecones, and plywood rings (and, in Maggie's case, fins). I'm thinking a 30" x 30' for the King Kraken and 36" x 36' for the Magg.

As I'm making these for myself, I wondered... would anyone else be interested in using them, or, at least, learning more about them?





Later!

--Coop
 
As I'm making these for myself, I wondered... would anyone else be interested in using them, or, at least, learning more about them?

I'm just starting to look at making some streamers for HPR myself. Mostly for apogee events, but also main recovery on some of my smaller HPR rockets. I guess that's a long winded way of saying, "Yes, I'm interesting in learning more about them and using them, as well."
 
Sounds cool. Thinking it is more material and tougher to pack in smaller rockets. I never folded a streamer lengthwi before to fit it in a tube.

It obviously works for you.
 
First off, HECK YEAH! Making things yourself, especially for 'black voodoo' of recovery systems rocks!

Somewhere in Apogee's newsletters there's an article with the formula that lets you optimize Length to Width to WEIGHT of the rocket. There is a practical point of no return.
 
I've used nylon kite tails before. Mine was about 20' long, 2' wide at one end and tapered to a point at the other. Finding the right length to weight ratio was key. Too long and it'll drift as far as a chute. Too short=too fast. I got one of the ShadowAero reflective streamers recently but haven't got the chance to try it out.
 
I have a 54 mm minimum D called "Altitude Seeker"...
I was also interested in a streamer for the drogue,,
that fits me particularly since I like a fairly quick decent rate under drogue...
I made the streamer to the rocket...
I do remember it was 7" wide as that's how much I had between
the top of the motor and the bottom of the av bay...
I liked Mylar for the material as the deployment altitudes were quite high and I wanted to be able to see it glinting in the sun...
The first tries the Mylar tore really soon after deploying so then I made one with clear Gorilla tape edges...
That one lasted quite a while,, long enough and enough flights for the shiny coating on the Mylar to completely flake off from whipping in the wind...
I'm trying to remember how long it was,,,
The roll of Mylar was 4 ft and I'm pretty sure it was 4 pieces Gorilla taped together,, bout 16 ft worth rolled up just fit in the 54 mm tube...
I remember seeing it flashing in the sun over a mile up... It was pretty cool... But more of a pain then worth so I went back to a small chute...

Teddy
 
I'm a big fan of streamers. .... After a lot of trial and error, and figuring out not only how to make these well (and lighter, and less bulky), ... would anyone else be interested in using them, or, at least, learning more about them?
I would very much like to see pics and hear some details on your construction techniques. Unlike you I've not had very good luck with streamers. The biggest issue is they end up twisting into a thin wound up strip even with a swivel.

So please do share what you can as I would like to learn more about your techniques.

Thanks,


Tony
 
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I'm just starting to look at making some streamers for HPR myself. Mostly for apogee events, but also main recovery on some of my smaller HPR rockets. I guess that's a long winded way of saying, "Yes, I'm interesting in learning more about them and using them, as well."

Excellent! I'm glad there's interest beyond my own camp. Heh.

When you say apogee events, what weight range are you looking at?


Later!

--Coop
 
Sounds cool. Thinking it is more material and tougher to pack in smaller rockets. I never folded a streamer lengthwi before to fit it in a tube.

It obviously works for you.

I've had no issue with reasonable folding. I tend to roll, then fold as necessary--prefer as few as possible, of course.

The last batch packs pretty well. I've fit an 18x18 into a 38mm... That's 27 square feet of recovery area and 110 grams of weight...


Later!

--Coop
 
First off, HECK YEAH! Making things yourself, especially for 'black voodoo' of recovery systems rocks!

Somewhere in Apogee's newsletters there's an article with the formula that lets you optimize Length to Width to WEIGHT of the rocket. There is a practical point of no return.

Thanks! Black voodoo, eh? I like it!

I recall seeing a few articles around about application and calculators for a given weight. Usually, they assume a 10:1 ratio, which I've found to be not as efficient as the 12:1 with the material I've been using, but they do give a decent enough ballpark estimate on which to base a streamer for a one-off project, certainly. I'm thinking more graduations that yield measurable differences with some overlap. To this end, I've made them in 4,6,9,12,15,18... then jump to graduations of 6", 6' --24, 30, 36. I've not gone bigger than that, as I make them from a single piece of material, and have no personal need for anything bigger than 36' at this point. I'd have to see if it's worth going to 42, or if I should just go up to 48. I suspect much past this, we will start seeing the need for them to get much larger, faster--getting closer to the practicality limit...


Later!

--Coop

I've done some limited testing --it's not as if I have reasonable access to a wind tunnel, dig, but I do have access to a pull scale and a Ford 500, and can figure out FPS to MPH.
 
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I've used nylon kite tails before. Mine was about 20' long, 2' wide at one end and tapered to a point at the other. Finding the right length to weight ratio was key. Too long and it'll drift as far as a chute. Too short=too fast. I got one of the ShadowAero reflective streamers recently but haven't got the chance to try it out.

Me, too! Some of the first ones I used were modified kite tails. I've not been impressed with them. With the tapering point, I've found they tend to whip themselves around the shock cord more often than the full-width ones. Never had that issue with the full-width, but have had it on the tapering ones. Were you using that as primary recovery, or as an apogee event?


Later!

--Coop
 
I have a 54 mm minimum D called "Altitude Seeker"...
I was also interested in a streamer for the drogue,,
that fits me particularly since I like a fairly quick decent rate under drogue...
I made the streamer to the rocket...
I do remember it was 7" wide as that's how much I had between
the top of the motor and the bottom of the av bay...
I liked Mylar for the material as the deployment altitudes were quite high and I wanted to be able to see it glinting in the sun...
The first tries the Mylar tore really soon after deploying so then I made one with clear Gorilla tape edges...
That one lasted quite a while,, long enough and enough flights for the shiny coating on the Mylar to completely flake off from whipping in the wind...
I'm trying to remember how long it was,,,
The roll of Mylar was 4 ft and I'm pretty sure it was 4 pieces Gorilla taped together,, bout 16 ft worth rolled up just fit in the 54 mm tube...
I remember seeing it flashing in the sun over a mile up... It was pretty cool... But more of a pain then worth so I went back to a small chute...

Teddy

That's ingenious, Teddy! Gorilla tape? Hardcore, man! Bet THAT held together... I'm not sure how well it would pack, though. Kind of bulky, I would think. I've fit 24"x24' into a 54mm tube... but that would not be a screaming-fast descent by any stretch, using something THAT big...

I've found, on dual-deploy, to go with a longer harness and place the streamer at least a streamer length down the cord to ensure clear air for the main usually works best. How heavy was Altitude Seeker?


Later!

--Coop
 
I would very much like to see pics and hear some details on your construction techniques. Unlike you I've not had very good luck with streamers. The biggest issue is they end up twisting into a thing wound up strip even with a swivel.

So please do share what you can as I would like to learn more about your techniques.

Thanks,


Tony

I've run into the twisting around the harness problem--but this was with the tapering point type, mentioned above. Are you using them as primary (main), or secondary (apogee)?

I'm not sure a swivel would be of much use to help with this. How were you attaching the streamer to the harness? That might be a factor...

I will get some photos taken, and show some of the construction techniques/tools I use, sure.

I have a serger, and did a couple wherein I serged the edges, but found I didn't like the look of it. I preferred the look of a rolled hem, so I did that, instead. Evidently, working with thin ripstop nylon is, according to accomplished seamstresses with whom I spoke when soliciting advice, rather difficult. I didn't know any different, and still don't. It's all I ever really worked with, so the properties that make it difficult (slippery, lightweight, etc) are merely par-for-the-course for me. I don't ask them much anymore--they kept advising me to do things beyond the capabilities of my machines (backtacking, mostly--my machines do not have reverse), and could not comprehend the need to run a hem that long.

A hot knife is a fantastic tool that quickly and cleanly cuts the material and seals it so that fraying is minimal. It's also handy for marking where the grommets go.

On anything that's built with HPR in mind, I use a tunnel one could pass their harness through as well as brass grommets to permit kevlar ties or quick clips for mounting/anchoring.

I'll get some photos taken over the next couple days...


Later!

--Coop
 
So I meant "hours," not "days." Raining today, need to get an oil change, so will do that and try flying tomorrow.

Anyways...

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1463836018.445063.jpg

This is the 18x18 streamer. Here, you can see one of the brass grommets I put in for tying or quick-clipping to the harness. I can recover something about 1.5 lb on this as primary, or up to about 20 lb as secondary, depending on how quick I want it down from apogee.

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1463836260.591352.jpg

Here she is in a loose roll. You can also see here the tunnel I sew in to permit the harness to pass through the streamer.

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1463836357.393063.jpg

There's the tunnel--and my left hand. Heh.

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1463836456.343463.jpg

Here's the backside of the venture, showing the box around the grommet area, one of the grommets, and the tunnel.

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1463836546.853040.jpg

Here's how I hem them--a double roll, so the raw fabric edge is encased inside. This is tedious and time consuming, particularly on the real big ones, but I prefer this look to the serger's thread loops.

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1463836741.578753.jpg

Here's another one I made, loosely rolled and folded so I can weigh it to input into Rocksim. That's 306.8 grams. Care to guess this streamer's unfurled size?

Later!

--Coop
 
Me, too! Some of the first ones I used were modified kite tails. I've not been impressed with them. With the tapering point, I've found they tend to whip themselves around the shock cord more often than the full-width ones. Never had that issue with the full-width, but have had it on the tapering ones. Were you using that as primary recovery, or as an apogee event?


Later!




































































--Coop

Here is a video I took of my kite tail streamer. This is a 38mm airframe with a 29mm motor mount. First flight the tail was 20' long and drifted quite a ways. This is video of the second flight and I had shortened the streamer down to 10'. The rocket lawn darted on the next flight because my NC was too tight on the friction fit. [video=youtube;NB1PRsTLZxY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB1PRsTLZxY[/video]
 
Very nice! I was unable to see the rocket at all after launch (but I couldn't get the video into full-screen mode, either, which may have been a factor), but it was no problem finding the streamer, once deployed!

I'm sorry to hear of the subsequent lawn dart... is it repairable?


Later!

--Coop
 
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It was bluetube and I cut off the first few inches of airframe which the NC had flared out and it was good to go with a new NC.
 
Hey guy's,,
I have a difficult time uploading pics here..
I just made a page of a streamer deployment flight on my site...
It sure is easier... Here's the link---
https://onebadhawk.com/altitude-seeker--streamer.html

And also one day someone set up to take a high speed video of the motor igniting on this rocket...
It's a super cool vid,, here---
https://onebadhawk.com/cool-hp-ignition-video.html

I like really small drogues..
Just enough to stop things from flailing around and keep both sections steady while falling...
But I really wasn't getting enough drag from the streamer,,,
I couldn't fit any more streamer in it's allotted space ( it's a 54 mm airframe and it went up on the Aerotech 54 / 2560 case,,
so though that case certainly wasn't every flight I didn't want to change anything for such a high / fast flight so everything had to fit where it was supposed to )...
And after many flights the Mylar flaked off and I was left with clear plastic...
That was it,, I went back to a small drogue....

Oh,, the Gorilla tape was the clear tape,, like package sealing tape, but a bit heavier...
Not the black Gorilla duct tape,, way too heavy...

Teddy
 
It was bluetube and I cut off the first few inches of airframe which the NC had flared out and it was good to go with a new NC.

Good--glad to hear it was salvageable!


Later!

--Coop
 
Nice pics, Teddy--you sure got a lot of them on that flight! Also--very cool slow-mo of the ignition/launch. I always dig those...

I admit: I was thinking of the wrong tape. Did you get a weight that you recall of the tape/mylar assembly? How fast was it coming in under the streamer?


Later!

--Coop
 
...

View attachment 291579

There's the tunnel--and my left hand. Heh.

...
Coop,

So just so I get it, you use either the tunnel and run the harness through that or use the grommets with a quick attachment method, but not both at the same time? Do you use anything to stiffen the bottom of the streamer? I tried music wire to get it to stay open.

And the twisting has occurred with all the streamers I've tried - commercial ones that had a small pouch at the top to catch air, long simple rectangles, and ones with serged edges, nearly all with swivels. I've tried attaching to the center and one corner.

So some photos of how you attach the streamer to the recovery harness would be great, thanks so much for what you've already posted.


Tony
 
I usually use both... Slip the shock cord through, then make a couple quick loops on either end. Then, I will anchor the streamer in place with whatever's handy--quick clips, zip ties, short lengths of Kevlar.

I've never had a need to attempt to stiffen the lower part with anything to keep it open. I would imagine to do so would cause a few issues.

The first I would say is to do so would necessitate a recovery compartment large enough to accommodate the streamer's full width. While this may not be a concern in streamers up to 12 or 15 inches or so, for large streamers two or three feet across, it starts becoming unwieldy.

The twisting around the shock cord is odd. I've only ran across it a couple of times and that was with the triangular-shaped streamer, as I have previously mentioned.

I have a few questions for you... First, are your problems with this all on the same rocket, or does it occur over multiple models? Second, does the streamer wrap itself around the shock cord from the bottom or the top? Third, where do you mount the swivel you mentioned using? Fourth, could you tell me how large the streamer is, and how you pack it?

Maybe we can figure out what is happening with yours...

I will work on getting a few more photos taken and uploaded...


Later!

--Coop
 
No, I'm sorry man, I don't remember any of the specific data..
I will say the pic's reminded me that I wasn't getting enough drag from it...
The booster is over the payload section in the pics...

Teddy
 
Still no takers on the 306.8 gram streamer's unfurled size?

Later!

--Coop
 
No, I'm sorry man, I don't remember any of the specific data..
I will say the pic's reminded me that I wasn't getting enough drag from it...
The booster is over the payload section in the pics...

Teddy

Seems we were responding about the same time! Heh.

I did notice that, in the photos, you could have benefited from a bit larger streamer--like you said, booster above main. Are you still flying this model with a drogue chute now? When you say "fast," as your target rate, what kind of descent rate do you shoot for?


Later!

--Coop
 
Excellent! I'm glad there's interest beyond my own camp. Heh.

When you say apogee events, what weight range are you looking at?


Later!

--Coop

For smaller rockets (low-high power, so small is realtive) that are high altitude (again, high is relative). I'm really thinking more for visibility than descent rate, but I'm not a big fan of drogue-less recovery, so descent rate is a factor.

I flew my 54mm, 4 lb rocket on an I59 to 6100' using a 6"x60" orange streamer. Since there isn't much visible smoke from the Warp 9 propellant or a delay/tracking smoke, it just disappeared. I didn't spot it until the main deployed.
 
I'm going to guess (and truly guess - I haven't weighed any of my fabric) 36" x 36(ish)'.


Not bad--it's 30" x 30.' It'll fit in a 75mm tube, once I get a good roll out of it and fold her in half.


Later!

--Coop
 
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6,000 feet is quite a long way away to see something 6" x 5'. Did that one give you the descent rate you were looking for? At 4 lb, I'd go with 12x12, maybe 9x9 if I wanted to bring it down a bit quicker. I generally shoot for 50-80 FPS after apogee until main...


Later!

--Coop
 
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