Large electric motors, batteries and vehicles

[les]

There is already a "standard" out there with water companies using multiple meters for different applications. I previously owned a house where there was one meter for domestic use and the other for lawn use. Not only did they charge differently, they also limited the amount useable on the sprinkler systems. I'm pretty sure this is common around the US.

Except for those of us in rural areas and get water from our personal wells. I never get a water bill. Just the electric bill for that covers the water pump...

 

[BEC]

Has anyone figured how the government will collect road use tax on EVs? Now they tax gasoline but as fewer people use gasoline, a different tax will have to be collected.

In Washington State I pay two surcharges on my annual registration for my Soul EV, one of which is an attempt to do this. I grudgingly understand this.

There is a move afoot in the state to try a mileage tax that would track how much you drive and charge you accordingly (regardless of the power source for your vehicle). That, of course, has all sorts of ramifications that make people, including me, less than thrilled. In the long run I don’t know what the solution will be. Clearly the roads will need to be paid for.

A month ago, a friend of mine purchased a new Prius "Prime", which is a "plug in" hybrid that's supposed to run most of the time on its battery. The manual states that a full charge requires 5 hours from a standard 120 volt outlet, or 2 hours from a special 240 Volt outlet (the type used by an electric clothes dryer). Her round-trip commute is 125 miles at highway speeds; when she works from home she generally drives 30 to 40 miles locally, and she frequently makes daily trips of 220 to 330 miles on work assignments, visiting her friends or on weekend get-aways.

Unfortunately she's had a few issues:
First, the car's on-board charging cable is not long enough to reach a suitable outlet in her house, and it's specifically stated in the manual that it not be used with an extension cord. Therefore she cannot charge at home or when visiting friends or get-aways. There are suitable charging stations at work, but they're sometimes occupied. She's used a public charging station once, but was dissatisfied with the multi-hour wait while charging.
Second, the car's battery apparently has a range of only 20 to 25 miles when fully charged (the dealer said that's typical). Since the majority of her trips are much longer than that and she can't charge at home, her car's battery is nearly always discharged. Fortunately the car is a hybrid, so the engine runs constantly unless she's braking, moving slowly or stopped in traffic.
Thirdly, her mileage is nowhere near the 50+ MPG that was claimed; it's actually not much more than her previous conventional Toyota RAV-4.

So how practical could a pure-electric car be for her? I'm feeling that for the charging time to be reduced to 5 or 10 minutes for full charge at public charging stations (such as at gas stations), charging systems and/or batteries will have to evolve to a much higher level than is currently attainable.

I don't see that rapid charging at home/work/friends will ever be economically feasible: It's my understanding that all existing and proposed rapid-charging stations require industrial-grade 3-phase power far in excess of that available in residential areas. Even when a medium-power 240 Volt dryer-grade connection (generally installed in a garage, which my friend doesn't have room for) is used, full-charge time for a modern long-range electric car exceeds 10 hours.

I suspect that warning to not use an extension cord is driven mainly by Toyota not wanting to be considered responsible when someone uses an inadequate extension cord and starts a fire. The first couple of months of our ownership of the Soul EV I used a 20A-rated 100 foot extension to connect the car to the supplied 120V EVSE as the only outdoor outlet we had (no garage) was around behind the house. It worked fine. On very rare occasions we still use this system.

But we had a level 2 EVSE (240V) installed on a front porch support post a couple of months into having the car and that is how we charge now almost exclusively. A ten hour charge isn’t as bad as it sounds - plug in when you get home, it’s done in the morning, and it only takes that long if you’ve run the car down to nothing during the day.

So for a pure EV for your friend, she’d need one with the range to do at least the 220 mile trips with a little margin, as well as install a level 2 EVSE at home. Any car like that will have the ability to be fast charged, which generally means recharging to ~80% state of charge in half an hour or so.

For the longer trips, finding one reliable place to do a fast charge either on the way out or on the way home for the longer trips would be needed. Here, Tesla has the advantage since they have a good fast charger network and so far as I know they keep it well-maintained. Third party charging networks for the rest of us have a very widely varying level of reliability (at least now). The Soul EV can be rapid charged using the older fast-charge standard and we occasionally use that ability as well…bearing in mind that sometimes one comes to a broken charger. We have one favorite that‘s behind a shopping mall that supports us doing some round trips beyond the range of the car.

 

[boatgeek]

A month ago, a friend of mine purchased a new Prius "Prime", which is a "plug in" hybrid that's supposed to run most of the time on its battery. The manual states that a full charge requires 5 hours from a standard 120 volt outlet, or 2 hours from a special 240 Volt outlet (the type used by an electric clothes dryer). Her round-trip commute is 125 miles at highway speeds; when she works from home she generally drives 30 to 40 miles locally, and she frequently makes daily trips of 220 to 330 miles on work assignments, visiting her friends or on weekend get-aways.

Unfortunately she's had a few issues:
First, the car's on-board charging cable is not long enough to reach a suitable outlet in her house, and it's specifically stated in the manual that it not be used with an extension cord. Therefore she cannot charge at home or when visiting friends or get-aways. There are suitable charging stations at work, but they're sometimes occupied. She's used a public charging station once, but was dissatisfied with the multi-hour wait while charging.
Second, the car's battery apparently has a range of only 20 to 25 miles when fully charged (the dealer said that's typical). Since the majority of her trips are much longer than that and she can't charge at home, her car's battery is nearly always discharged. Fortunately the car is a hybrid, so the engine runs constantly unless she's braking, moving slowly or stopped in traffic.
Thirdly, her mileage is nowhere near the 50+ MPG that was claimed; it's actually not much more than her previous conventional Toyota RAV-4.

So how practical could a pure-electric car be for her? I'm feeling that for the charging time to be reduced to 5 or 10 minutes for full charge at public charging stations (such as at gas stations), charging systems and/or batteries will have to evolve to a much higher level than is currently attainable.

I don't see that rapid charging at home/work/friends will ever be economically feasible: It's my understanding that all existing and proposed rapid-charging stations require industrial-grade 3-phase power far in excess of that available in residential areas. Even when a medium-power 240 Volt dryer-grade connection (generally installed in a garage, which my friend doesn't have room for) is used, full-charge time for a modern long-range electric car exceeds 10 hours.

I'm sorry that your friend's experience hasn't been good. That's really frustrating to buy a car thinking that it will be better and then it isn't.

A few questions/comments:
1. Does your friend not have a 110V outlet in her garage near the car? If she did, then she could charge overnight every night and be in a much better place in terms of usage. Personally, I would have no problem running a heavy duty 110V extension cord across the garage. An electrician could also install an outlet in an hour or two if you can get on their schedule. The outlet could be 110V or 220V if the breaker panel is in the garage and has an appropriate slot open.
2. The car should have a DC fast charge port in this day and age (not to say that Toyota put one in!). That would cut the charge time at most stations from 2.5 hours to <1 hour. Virtually all dedicated EVs have a fast charge port, and there's an arms race on to offer faster charging at charging stations.
3. If you can cover your daily commute driving with charging at home on 110V or 220V, then all of this makes a lot more sense. Most of us have 10 or more hours of uninterrupted charging time while we're home, so that's a pretty decent metric--can you charge the car at home for your commute in 10 hours?

 

[Banzai88]

But we had a level 2 EVSE (240V) installed on a front porch support post a couple of months into having the car and that is how we charge now almost exclusively.

What does something like this cost?

 

[neil_w]

Unfortunately she's had a few issues:
First, the car's on-board charging cable is not long enough to reach a suitable outlet in her house, and it's specifically stated in the manual that it not be used with an extension cord. Therefore she cannot charge at home or when visiting friends or get-aways. There are suitable charging stations at work, but they're sometimes occupied. She's used a public charging station once, but was dissatisfied with the multi-hour wait while charging.

I would agree with Bernard that using an extension cord should be OK if you use one that is sufficiently robust.

Commonly, if a suitable outlet is not available, a plug-in car owner will get a new outlet in a better location, rather than have the ongoing struggle you describe.

Second, the car's battery apparently has a range of only 20 to 25 miles when fully charged (the dealer said that's typical). Since the majority of her trips are much longer than that and she can't charge at home, her car's battery is nearly always discharged. Fortunately the car is a hybrid, so the engine runs constantly unless she's braking, moving slowly or stopped in traffic.
Thirdly, her mileage is nowhere near the 50+ MPG that was claimed; it's actually not much more than her previous conventional Toyota RAV-4.

The battery-only range is something that should have been understood before purchasing the car. Plug-in hybrids are at their best when employed in more typical usage, which is short trips and a much smaller number of miles per day. *That* is when they can "run most of the time on the battery". 125 mile daily commute is not an ideal use case for a plug-in hybrid. I'm sorry your friend didn't really understand what she was buying.

Furthermore, mileage when running in hybrid mode really should be much better than that RAV-4, not sure what's going on there. My regular Prius reliably got 45-50 MPG in warm weather, and about 40 MPG in the winter.

So how practical could a pure-electric car be for her? I'm feeling that for the charging time to be reduced to 5 or 10 minutes for full charge at public charging stations (such as at gas stations), charging systems and/or batteries will have to evolve to a much higher level than is currently attainable.

I don't see that rapid charging at home/work/friends will ever be economically feasible: It's my understanding that all existing and proposed rapid-charging stations require industrial-grade 3-phase power far in excess of that available in residential areas. Even when a medium-power 240 Volt dryer-grade connection (generally installed in a garage, which my friend doesn't have room for) is used, full-charge time for a modern long-range electric car exceeds 10 hours.

10 hours is pretty close to worst-case, assuming you pull into your garage on empty, which you normally don't do. Assuming you sleep, that is normally enough time to recharge your car.

*Rapid* charging (i.e. DC fast charging, or Level 3 charging) is not intended for the home. You're not supposed to use it that often anyway, to maintain battery health. For 99.9% of potential owners, a level 2 (30-50A, 240V) charger at home is more than sufficient. Your friend could easily handle her daily commute without charging (other than at home, overnight), and perhaps one fast-charging stop would be necessary on her road trips.

Now, if your friend is for some reason unable to install a level-2 charger at her home, then that is a more difficult situation for BEV ownership.

[edit: fixed important error, in red]

 

[neil_w]

What does something like this cost?

Cost me about $400. Somewhat depends on how far you need to run the wire from the panel to the outlet. Mine was fairly short.

 

[Banzai88]

Cost me about $400. Somewhat depends on how far you need to run the wire from the panel to the outlet. Mine was fairly short.

Is that the total package, hardware and installation?

 

[neil_w]

Is that the total package, hardware and installation?

All it is, in my case, is a 50A NEMA 14-50 outlet, so the $400 is the whole shebang. I use the charge cable that came with my car. A hard-wired charger, if you want that instead, would add something like $300-$500. It didn't really add any value for me, so I didn't even consider it.

It's possible a 30A outlet (i.e. a typical dryer outlet) might cost a bit less.

 

[Banzai88]

All it is, in my case, is a 50A NEMA 14-50 outlet, so the $400 is the whole shebang. I use the charge cable that came with my car. A hard-wired charger, if you want that instead, would add something like $300-$500. It didn't really add any value for me, so I didn't even consider it.

It's possible a 30A outlet (i.e. a typical dryer outlet) might cost a bit less.

Thanks. I'm just trying to get a handle on what the charging support costs might be. I've ready wildly differing numbers, so I figured I'd ask you folks that actually made the investment.

 

[neil_w]

Thanks. I'm just trying to get a handle on what the charging support costs might be. I've ready wildly differing numbers, so I figured I'd ask you folks that actually made the investment.

It should be a very easy quote from an electrician if you want to get a "real" number (choose a location first, reasonably close to the panel if possible). Some (on forums, etc.) have reported somewhat higher cost; I don't know if their electricians are ripping them off or what. Mine isn't necessarily cheap or anything, he just charges honestly for time and materials.

 

[BEC]

What does something like this cost?

This is the one I got: https://store.clippercreek.com/featured/hcs-40-hcs-40p-ev-charging-station

Puget Sound Energy was, at the time, offering a $500 rebate (another EV subsidy of sorts) that just about paid for the hardware. I had several things done by the electrician when this was installed: 50A 240V wiring for the EVSE from the service panel in front of the house to the EVSE location, a new 15A 110V outdoor outlet on the service panel support post and a 30A 110V outlet (an RV-type plug in) also on the service panel support post. So what I paid the electrician is not typical. I had the wiring sized for 50A for future growth, so that all that needs to happen to go there is change the breaker out.

I will note that the EVSE failed (some kind of internal contactor issue) and once I was able to verify the error codes for them they shipped me a warranty replacement in two days and it probably took me an hour to swap the old one for the new one, including boxing the old one up for prepaid shipping back to Clipper Creek.

 

[kuririn]

don't see that rapid charging at home/work/friends will ever be economically feasible: It's my understanding that all existing and proposed rapid-charging stations require industrial-grade 3-phase power far in excess of that available in residential areas. Even when a medium-power 240 Volt dryer-grade connection (generally installed in a garage, which my friend doesn't have room for) is used, full-charge time for a modern long-range electric car exceeds 10 hours.

A Level 2 wall mount charger may be compatible with grade 3 phased power but it is not required.
240 volt residential power is more than adequate to charge most EV batteries. Typically 3 to 8 hours. An electrician would need to install the wall socket.
Does your friend have room on her garage wall?
Or she can buy a portable unit, store it in her trunk. and just plug it into a type 2 socket on the wall to charge. Don't know how much it is to install the type 2 socket by an electrician, might vary by area.

 

[neil_w]

AAARGH, should have said:

125 mile daily commute is not an ideal use case for a plug-in hybrid.

Fixed in the above post.

 

[Funkworks]

I've been looking for more information on the Tesla Roadster because the hype is that it will feature a "Space X package" with booster rockets to reach 0-60 in 1.1 seconds. But the car is really still under development and keeps being delayed, so i can't find a real video (however some fans are so fanatical they create very realistic videos with CGI).

Here's Elon talk to Jay Leno about it:


And with Joe Rogan:


And a relatively credible (MSN )article:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/new...hrusters-to-hit-0-60-in-11-seconds/ar-AAKmwu2

 

[Funkworks]

But what about all of the people (like me) who almost exclusively charge at home? How do you disentangle the electricity used by the EV from the normal lights etc.? It gets even weirder for people (again like me) who have rooftop solar, so I'm drawing less than half of my total power usage from the grid.

Unless you have the charger itself on a meter, it's going to be hard to measure. And for lower-capacity electric cars that charge off a 110V outlet, flat out impossible.

With current methods, I think I agree. But cars and rules can change. I can't predict which method would be used but engineers are full of tricks no one else would think of. Packing energy in a battery is much more difficult problem (and making solar panels ever more efficient).

Edit: so you made me think about this and here's one possible solution: The annual maintenance mechanic could record the car's mileage, and charge a tax based on mileage since last service. Or send the number to a bank or government organization taking monthly payments based on mileage.

 

[Funkworks]

Her round-trip commute is 125 miles at highway speeds

I don't think there's any point in getting a plug-in with that kind of commute. Unless the full EV mode is enough for her weeks-ends. That would be the oppisite of my case. I ride short EV distances on week and longerhybrid-mode distances on the week-end) Might as well go hybrid.

First, the car's on-board charging cable is not long enough to reach a suitable outlet in her house, and it's specifically stated in the manual that it not be used with an extension cord.

Mine is a Hyundai and I bought an extension less than a week after getting the car. Still use it all the time. It has to be able to withstand many amperes. That's why the manual is against it. No one dares to say the number because if the cable is too thin, problems can arise. It depends on a few things. I don't remember.

She's used a public charging station once, but was dissatisfied with the multi-hour wait while charging.

I only use public stations when doing errands or sitting at coffee shops to work, study and browse TRF.

Second, the car's battery apparently has a range of only 20 to 25 miles when fully charged (the dealer said that's typical).

That is typical, and it answers to an average commute.

Since the majority of her trips are much longer than that and she can't charge at home, her car's battery is nearly always discharged.

No point in using EV mode unless the ride is less than 20 miles. Sounds like she should be in hybrid mode full time. Sounds like a regular Prius would have been better in this case.

Thirdly, her mileage is nowhere near the 50+ MPG that was claimed; it's actually not much more than her previous conventional Toyota RAV-4.

I can't speak to that. Toyota lost my admiration for a few reasons I'd rather not get into.

So how practical could a pure-electric car be for her?

With a full EV that she can charge every night, she would be able to 125 miles. But I'd rather see city folks get the full EVs and those with long commutes get the hybrids. I think what she should do is just stick to hybrid mode all the time.

 

[neil_w]

With a full EV that she can charge every night, she would be able to 125 miles. But I'd rather see city folks get the full EVs and those with long commutes get the hybrids. I think what she should do is just stick to hybrid mode all the time.

I was with you up until here. No reason folks with longer commutes can't do fine with BEVs. Especially if (or rather, "when") charging is available at the workplace.

I guess it's inevitable that any thread that discusses electric vehicles of any type in any context will devolve into a "who can/can't own a BEV", with the same exact arguments thrown back and forth every time.

Maybe we can get back to the original intended thread topic, which is all manner of interesting new electric conveyances?

 

[Funkworks]

I was with you up until here. No reason folks with longer commutes can't do fine with BEVs. Especially if (or rather, "when") charging is available at the workplace.

I think it's easier for someone who does smaller distances to go full EV because shorter range EVs have a lower initial cost. If the commute is longer, you'll need a longer range and those EVs get more expensive. My "who" is based on length of driving/commuting distances, nothing else. If I still had a 100 miles daily commute as I once had, I would not have gotten an EV this year (would have gotten a hybrid probably). But with 10 miles instead, there was no reason not to (get a Plug-In).

Of course a charging station at the work place makes all the difference. Not my case though.

 

[Funkworks]

World first electric cargo ship!

 

[MJW]

Extension cords introduce several potential issues. Let's just tackle the two biggest though. First there is the fire/thermal damage issue caused by over heating. Second there is voltage drop across the cable. Both of these are governed by fundamental equations V=I*R and P=V^2/R. R is governed by three attributes of the extension cord. Its length * 2, the conductor material (usually stranded copper), and the cross sectional area of the conductors. Current (I) is defined by the load. Hence the voltage drop across the extension cable (V) and the power dissipated as heat (P) are easily found. All that said, just get the largest conductor (smallest AWG, ideally 12 or 14) and the shortest length practical, it should work just fine. A water proof cover for the EV end plug is always a good idea too -- just in case of precipitation.

 

[John Kemker]

Hertz explains why they're buying 100,000 Model 3's.

So, Hertz is buying Teslas.

What does Faraday, Ohm, and Watt think of that?

 

[Sandy H.]

A month ago, a friend of mine purchased a new Prius "Prime", which is a "plug in" hybrid that's supposed to run most of the time on its battery. The manual states that a full charge requires 5 hours from a standard 120 volt outlet, or 2 hours from a special 240 Volt outlet (the type used by an electric clothes dryer). Her round-trip commute is 125 miles at highway speeds; when she works from home she generally drives 30 to 40 miles locally, and she frequently makes daily trips of 220 to 330 miles on work assignments, visiting her friends or on weekend get-aways.

Unfortunately she's had a few issues:
First, the car's on-board charging cable is not long enough to reach a suitable outlet in her house, and it's specifically stated in the manual that it not be used with an extension cord. Therefore she cannot charge at home or when visiting friends or get-aways. There are suitable charging stations at work, but they're sometimes occupied. She's used a public charging station once, but was dissatisfied with the multi-hour wait while charging.
Second, the car's battery apparently has a range of only 20 to 25 miles when fully charged (the dealer said that's typical). Since the majority of her trips are much longer than that and she can't charge at home, her car's battery is nearly always discharged. Fortunately the car is a hybrid, so the engine runs constantly unless she's braking, moving slowly or stopped in traffic.
Thirdly, her mileage is nowhere near the 50+ MPG that was claimed; it's actually not much more than her previous conventional Toyota RAV-4.

So how practical could a pure-electric car be for her? I'm feeling that for the charging time to be reduced to 5 or 10 minutes for full charge at public charging stations (such as at gas stations), charging systems and/or batteries will have to evolve to a much higher level than is currently attainable.

I don't see that rapid charging at home/work/friends will ever be economically feasible: It's my understanding that all existing and proposed rapid-charging stations require industrial-grade 3-phase power far in excess of that available in residential areas. Even when a medium-power 240 Volt dryer-grade connection (generally installed in a garage, which my friend doesn't have room for) is used, full-charge time for a modern long-range electric car exceeds 10 hours.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge 'pro-electric/hybrid guy' (but I'm ok with them, just don't own one yet). It sounds like your friend is almost exactly the wrong demographic for a plug-in car.

When I go to the office and go out to lunch, my commute is probably 25 miles total per day. When I work from home, I probably drive 40 miles per week. When I 'go somewhere' (visiting family, rocket launches, vacation etc.) I will do 1200 miles in a week. I have a 200A service in the house, but it is pretty loaded, so a change would be needed there. There is a transformer in my front yard, so the concept of getting higher voltage and/or 3-phase is not out of the question and could likely be done. I would probably be a decent candidate for a full electric car. Your friend seems not to be and a hybrid or gas car simply makes more sense.

As far as the 'no extension cord' rule, I'm sure it is 'correct' and insurance wouldn't cover anything if something went wrong, but at some point I imagine they will specify a gauge vs length requirement.

I think (not a fact, as I haven't committed) that as of today, having a plug-in only car requires a lifestyle commitment. We all are used to the constraints required by ICE cars, but the differences for EV or Hybrids are different. If you want to go straight EV today with the least inconvenience, you'll probably need to tweak your house power set-up, figure out how to get an extension cord that might break rules but be safe from a technical standpoint (i.e. large gauge/low voltage drop at the current required) and then accept that you get screwed every now and then. Same thing goes for if you want to have a big dog, children or a pool - a lifestyle commitment is required.

I imagine in 50+ years, the inconvenience of driving a 'classic' 2021 Corvette will be similar, as you'll have to bring your own fuel with you, transport it in approved containers (since all convenience stores will be rapid charging but only one every thousand miles will have 'gas' vs. charging stations), have a permit for 'non-self driving vehicle' and steer with your hands and not an app will make the ICE guys feel like today's plug-in guys.

Pretty sure I won't see it get that far, but who knows. . .

I think major infrastructure changes will happen and high voltage/high current (relative to today's common household stuff, not the proper industry definitions) will become more common at the household level. Where that power will be generated, I have no clue. . .then again, the first demonstration of electric light was 1835 and the 'common' incandescent light bulb came about 70 years later and lasted for 100 years before being upset by other technologies. Pretty sure nobody on the forum knows a time when electric light wasn't common. . .same may be said about EV's by the new rocketeers we help get started in the hobby!

Sandy.

 

[Bravo52]

Except for those of us in rural areas and get water from our personal wells. I never get a water bill. Just the electric bill for that covers the water pump...

Well, you’ll just get two meters then…

 

[MJW]

Well, you’ll just get two meters then…

In all actuality, it will be a GPS tracker in every new car that logs actual miles driven.

 

[Bravo52]

In all actuality, it will be a GPS tracker in every new car that logs actual miles driven.

Yes, probably solved by some electronic means for sure. I don’t think GPS is a good way to go but a transponder of sorts may work well.

 

[kuririn]

I wouldn't want anybody tracking anything of mine. Not the government, not businesses, not high tech. Metering utility usage for billing purposes, fine.
Otherwise it's none of their business.
Or are we becoming another China?

 

[AllDigital]

I’ve owned five Teslas over the last nine years. We have two now and an ICE SUV that only gets used for going deep into the desert. 98% of the family miles are electric.
I realized the first week I drove the all electric car that it was the future and I could never go back… eventually selling a Mustang Cobra and other ICE vehicles. I’m also not a huge environmentalist on a mission. I love how perfect gas is as a stable and incredibly dense fuel. It has provided man and society with incredible leverage, but this thread isn’t about gas.
For me it is about the dozens of benefits of electric that far outweigh “the old way”. Every day when I wake up I have 350 miles of range. Going to a gas station is actually a huge PITA when you get used to having a full tank every morning. Like having to drive to a fill up station to charge your phone. Another big factor is maintenance. My neighbor has a Tesla with 210K miles and it has never needed brakes. I have a Tesla that is four years old this week with 45K miles and today it went in for new tires. It has not had a single service in four years, besides me replacing wiper fluid and a cabin filter. The old cars constantly need brakes, oil changes, radiator flushes, belts, etc. Heat and friction cause need for a lot of maintenance. Electric is also just insanely faster. 100% torque off the line and silent.
I often drive to Vegas from so cal (about 450 miles). On the way I stop once for twenty minutes to charge. Super chargers charge the first 60% very fast and the last 10% very slow. There is no need to fully charge. When I get to Vegas it is plugged in overnight. Like my phone.
That said, I still use the ICE vehicle for deep in the desert. I need something tougher and just a bit more range to feel safe. But I resent it every time I drive it. I have to use the brakes…every time I press them I feel money burning up expensive brake pads. It needs radiator flushing, transmission fluid, and other annoying maintenance.
When the cyber truck comes out I will likely swap out the SUV, since it has 500 miles range and is much tougher. I’m excited for new all electric trucks coming.
The issue today isn’t as much with the tech as it is with the price, but the cost of batteries and the tech is dropping rapidly. In nine years my range has doubled for the same price. That trend will continue for electric, so eventually you can have 1000 mile charge on cars. Charging in apartments and street parking also isn’t ideal yet, but we charge every night with long cord in the rain with no issues. I’m not a fan of hybrids, because you have twice the complexity. A lot of the same maintenance of an ICE car, but for many they provide a more affordable price to range ratio.
The future is electric. That is why Tesla is now valued at $1T. It will just take a bit more time to drive down the price for the masses (like all tech that has come before).

 

[neil_w]

Toyota finally getting in the game:
https://electrek.co/2021/10/29/toyo...ar-bz4x-an-electric-suv-packed-cool-features/

 

[boatgeek]

I’ve owned five Teslas over the last nine years. We have two now and an ICE SUV that only gets used for going deep into the desert. 98% of the family miles are electric.
I realized the first week I drove the all electric car that it was the future and I could never go back… eventually selling a Mustang Cobra and other ICE vehicles. I’m also not a huge environmentalist on a mission. I love how perfect gas is as a stable and incredibly dense fuel. It has provided man and society with incredible leverage, but this thread isn’t about gas.
For me it is about the dozens of benefits of electric that far outweigh “the old way”. Every day when I wake up I have 350 miles of range. Going to a gas station is actually a huge PITA when you get used to having a full tank every morning. Like having to drive to a fill up station to charge your phone. Another big factor is maintenance. My neighbor has a Tesla with 210K miles and it has never needed brakes. I have a Tesla that is four years old this week with 45K miles and today it went in for new tires. It has not had a single service in four years, besides me replacing wiper fluid and a cabin filter. The old cars constantly need brakes, oil changes, radiator flushes, belts, etc. Heat and friction cause need for a lot of maintenance. Electric is also just insanely faster. 100% torque off the line and silent.
I often drive to Vegas from so cal (about 450 miles). On the way I stop once for twenty minutes to charge. Super chargers charge the first 60% very fast and the last 10% very slow. There is no need to fully charge. When I get to Vegas it is plugged in overnight. Like my phone.
That said, I still use the ICE vehicle for deep in the desert. I need something tougher and just a bit more range to feel safe. But I resent it every time I drive it. I have to use the brakes…every time I press them I feel money burning up expensive brake pads. It needs radiator flushing, transmission fluid, and other annoying maintenance.
When the cyber truck comes out I will likely swap out the SUV, since it has 500 miles range and is much tougher. I’m excited for new all electric trucks coming.
The issue today isn’t as much with the tech as it is with the price, but the cost of batteries and the tech is dropping rapidly. In nine years my range has doubled for the same price. That trend will continue for electric, so eventually you can have 1000 mile charge on cars. Charging in apartments and street parking also isn’t ideal yet, but we charge every night with long cord in the rain with no issues. I’m not a fan of hybrids, because you have twice the complexity. A lot of the same maintenance of an ICE car, but for many they provide a more affordable price to range ratio.
The future is electric. That is why Tesla is now valued at $1T. It will just take a bit more time to drive down the price for the masses (like all tech that has come before).

I think the issue of maintenance doesn't get enough airplay. There's so few things that wear out on an electric car.

 

[AeroTech]

Has anyone figured how the government will collect road use tax on EVs? Now they tax gasoline but as fewer people use gasoline, a different tax will have to be collected.

In Utah a road tax is added to the registration fee for EVs.