Large electric motors, batteries and vehicles

[Funkworks]

https://www.canarymedia.com/article...ev-challenge-looms-over-ny-auto-show-charging

People don't realize they don't spend more than 1-2 hours in a car each day. That means they drive less than 150 miles in a day, which I think every new EV can do. Home chargers are not as visible as gas station road signs so people worry, but home charging is the key. Still, more road chargers will help.



Another Li battery recycler:

https://ascendelements.com/

 

[jderimig]

I am sure this study has been done by automakers or public but I wonder what a 100 mile EV would cost to produce? And the range reduction is probably not linear with battery capacity. For example if the battery capacity is reduced by 1/2 there is a significant weight reduction of the vehicle, less tire losses and all other things being equal better range. So I bet the range reduction is less than 1/2. I'd like to see the curves. I suspect its a convex parabola, 2nd derivative (-). Just curious how convex.

For me the optimal household fleet would be, 1 EV commuter, 1 FS pickup with Crew Cab. Perfect!

 

[Funkworks]

I am sure this study has been done by automakers or public but I wonder what a 100 mile EV would cost to produce?

It depends if the automaker makes 100,000/year, or 1M a year. The curve (price per car vs number of cars produced) would look like an exponential decay. If a carmaker is certain it can actually sell 1M cars a year, it can set up production lines to build 1M/yr, and sell each one cheaper than if they only make 100,000/yr. This is what I understand Tesla is doing: setting up to build (millions? guessing) of "Model 2" that can be sold for $25k each. Nissan probably doesn't think they can sell 1M Leafs a year, but Tesla does, because they see lots of demand for their brand. High demand => confidence to invest in larger production lines => lower cost per unit. (Tesla is also re-imagining a car production line, designed expressly for EVs, theirs in particular).

Smaller EVs (smaller cars in general) are more popular in other countries. China has the Wuling Hongguang Mini, which I understand is very affordable. Europe has the the Renault Zoe, which is small but rather expensive. The VW E-Golf was available in the US until recently (someone around here sometimes talks about his own). For anyone actually looking to buy a 100-mile EV, there are many affordable second-hand Nissan Leafs.

And the range reduction is probably not linear with battery capacity. For example if the battery capacity is reduced by 1/2 there is a significant weight reduction of the vehicle, less tire losses and all other things being equal better range. So I bet the range reduction is less than 1/2.

I think that concern can easily be addressed by the engineers. The weight of a car varies just as much whether it's carrying 1 person or a family with luggage, and I have yet to see a carmaker publish range as a function of how many people are in the car. A few data points from here:

"For example, the Model Y (4,416 pounds) has a larger battery ... (1,200 pounds)."
"The heaviest EV battery is the Hummer EV [9,046 lbs] battery, which weighs around 2,923 pounds.



A Semi story:

 

[boatgeek]

I am sure this study has been done by automakers or public but I wonder what a 100 mile EV would cost to produce? And the range reduction is probably not linear with battery capacity. For example if the battery capacity is reduced by 1/2 there is a significant weight reduction of the vehicle, less tire losses and all other things being equal better range. So I bet the range reduction is less than 1/2. I'd like to see the curves. I suspect its a convex parabola, 2nd derivative (-). Just curious how convex.

For me the optimal household fleet would be, 1 EV commuter, 1 FS pickup with Crew Cab. Perfect!

See pricing for Leaf, Nissan in the 2012-2018 or so versions. This has been done. I love the one we have for a city car, but it’s clear that the larger market moved elsewhere.

 

[jderimig]

See pricing for Leaf, Nissan in the 2012-2018 or so versions. This has been done. I love the one we have for a city car, but it’s clear that the larger market moved elsewhere.

I would prefer a second generation new with the $7500 fed pork credit. I want the battery to last my lifetime.

 

[boatgeek]

I would prefer a second generation new with the $7500 fed pork credit. I want the battery to last my lifetime.

OK, but you wanted to know what the price is. For a current model, 150-mile range, you're looking at a hair under $30K list price. Maaayyybe you could knock $5K off of that by reducing the battery pack to a 100-mile range, but then you get into market demand and economy of scale issues that @Funkworks brought up.

If you want the battery to last your lifetime, then a slightly larger battery pack is a good thing. This reduces your C value (kW used / kWh capacity of the battery) by increasing the denominator. That's good for battery lifetime. It also allows you to do more slow charging on a 110V or 240V AC outlet since you have a little more flexibility in when you have to charge. That slow charging also increases your battery life.

 

[boatgeek]

A side note to the post above is that my workplace has been looking at a variety of large-ish battery projects. The big thing that all of the battery manufacturers talk about is the difference between an energy battery (relatively low C values) and a power battery (relatively high C values). C is basically a measure of how quickly you're drawing the battery down. The higher the C value, the more effort and power you need to put into cooling the battery. In some cases, increasing battery capacity to reduce C is really cost effective because it allows you to use a smaller cooling plant.

 

[Funkworks]

I test drove both the 1st and 2nd gen Leafs and preferred the 2nd gen. Sounds like a great choice. Battery will surely last longer than for an older model. Renting a 1st gen on Turo for the weekend is well worth it to see if it's right.

 

[Greg Furtman]

What a cool vehicle.

 

[Funkworks]

First electric car hauler.

https://www.scania.com/group/en/hom...ndard_car_transporter_goes_into_service.html#

 

[Greg Furtman]

Here's an update on different battery technologies.

 

[Greg Furtman]

This looks promising.

https://www.canarymedia.com/article...t-just-spur-a-major-grid-battery-breakthrough

 

[Greg Furtman]

An interesting finding from the Environmental Defense Fund.

https://www.canarymedia.com/article...need-costly-grid-updates-should-utilities-pay

 

[Funkworks]

A new car company from Sweden aiming to score high on affordability and sustainability. Now I don't consider anything to be "green", but I have zero issues with people pushing to be "greener".

https://www.luvly.se/

 

[Greg Furtman]

A new car company from Sweden aiming to score high on affordability and sustainability. Now I don't consider anything to be "green", but I have zero issues with people pushing to be "greener".

https://www.luvly.se/

The Luvly looks a wee bit like WALL-E.

 

[kuririn]

A new car company from Sweden aiming to score high on affordability and sustainability. Now I don't consider anything to be "green", but I have zero issues with people pushing to be "greener".

https://www.luvly.se/

From the link: " And it looks good too."

This may fly in Europe but I don't think it will work in the states.
Especially with no rear window and a 62 mile range.
I would want to be able to see what's behind me.
Perhaps there's a niche segment of drivers for this.

 

[OverTheTop]

Especially with no rear window and a 62 mile range.
I would want to be able to see what's behind me.
Perhaps there's a niche segment of drivers for this.

As a licensed truck driver I could happily live without the rear window. Many trucks you don't get a choice with. You just increase use of the side mirrors to compensate for situational awareness.

 

[kuririn]

As a licensed truck driver I could happily live without the rear window. Many trucks you don't get a choice with. You just increase use of the side mirrors to compensate for situational awareness.

The Luvly is not a truck. Do you know any other cars that don't have a rear window?

 

[OverTheTop]

The Luvly is not a truck. Do you know any other cars that don't have a rear window?

No, don't know of any cars that don't have back windows. It doesn't mean driving is impossible or even worse without one. Open your mind to the possibilities

 

[kuririn]

Open your mind to the possibilities

My mind is open. Open to the possibility of backing over something that I couldn't see.

 

[OverTheTop]

My mind is open. Open to the possibility of backing over something that I couldn't see.

We now live in an age of reversing cameras.

 

[kuririn]

We now live in an age of reversing cameras.

So does the Luvly have a reversing camera?

 

[OverTheTop]

Sigh... Some people don't like change.

 

[kuririn]

Sigh... Some people don't like change.

Only if it's for the better.

 

[kuririn]

Back on topic:
Electrifying rail freight.
https://news.stlpublicradio.org/eco...p-make-rail-shipping-safer-and-more-efficient

 

[Funkworks]

No idea about a backup camera but its battery can be swapped! Interview with co-founder:

https://www.moveelectric.com/e-cars/flatpack-ev-how-luvly-aiming-revolutionise-micro-ev-market
On the other end of the EV size scale, a Cybertruck delivery event is planned for September or October:

https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1...production-images-and-remains-on-track-for-q3

 

[kuririn]

On the other end of the EV size scale, a Cybertruck delivery event is planned for September or October:

Someone mentioned that a freight truck with quick swappable batteries would be the best of both worlds.
Restore your range in the same time it takes to gas up an ICE rig.
But there would have to be swapping stations along the route, no different than gas stations I suppose.
Infrastructure again.

 

[Funkworks]

Someone mentioned that a freight truck with quick swappable batteries would be the best of both worlds.
Restore your range in the same time it takes to gas up an ICE rig.
But there would have to be swapping stations along the route, no different than gas stations I suppose.
Infrastructure again.

Swapping sounds great except it's hard to imagine all companies agreeing to a standard battery size, and just as hard to image a different swapping station for each brand. If most trucking can be done on one charge a day (500 miles), and a smaller percentage runs on diesel or hydrogen for longer hauls, that might be sustainable enough.

 

[Greg Furtman]

Tesla's sales of storage batteries has soared recently and may outpace their EV sales.

https://www.canarymedia.com/article...ge-sales-are-growing-way-faster-than-ev-sales

 

[Funkworks]

Tesla's sales of storage batteries has soared recently and may outpace their EV sales.

https://www.canarymedia.com/article...ge-sales-are-growing-way-faster-than-ev-sales

From the article:

"But Musk stressed that this is not a business Tesla wants to be in. “Can other people please do this work?” he pleaded. “That would be great. We’re begging you. We don’t want to do it. Can someone please? Like instead of making a picture-sharing app?” "

I'm actually glad Tesla is getting into lithium refining. If I knew where to start to get into it myself, I just might be interested. I'm just not sure I have what it takes to succeed in that kind of enterprise. I'd need people like Elon or whoever as mentors and backers.