Large electric motors, batteries and vehicles

MClark

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I'll look into it to see what "sound generator" really is about but the idea of generating sounds just for the heck of it sounds ridiculous to me. If it's for nostalgia, I'm out. Otherwise, then why not also for toasters, chimneys and ball caps. SMH. Just carry a smartphone and speaker. Anyway, I'll look at the video later.
Cameras make fake shutter noises. Why?

Some interesting facts I found. Australia uses 229 billion kwh per day. This battery is 1.68 billion kwh. So this battery will be able to supply 10minutes of Australia's daily energy usage if fully discharged for 25 million people.

People in Outback when power goes out after 10 minutes.
"Another blackout." light kerosene lanterns defeating concept of green energy.
 

boatgeek

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Yes and at $1billion each it would onyt cost $200Billion in capex to power Australia for a single day. I wonder what would nat gas turbines would cost to provide the same intermittent backup power?

Reading the article linked, it says that the Waratah super battery is the first item to be funded under the $1B fund. It's not clear how much of that billion is committed to the battery project. Also, a billion Australian dollars is only around $670M US.

To answer your question, 100 MW of installed gas turbines cost $123M US (capital, not including O&M). The battery is rated at 850 MW, so an equivalent output would cost around $1B US. To me, the battery itself is a surprisingly inexpensive replacement for natural gas peaker plants.

 

Funkworks

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Cameras make fake shutter noises. Why?
Like a button click, it tells me my action was entered. It doesn't have to be loud because I don't need to tell the world about my camera. Imagine how ridiculous it would be if they made computer keyboards as loud as typewriters. In an EV, a speedometer can signal everything noise could. (natural noise can help with a manual transmission but those are obsolete in many cases). EVs generate noise below 25 mph or so because that's when there might be people around who want a warning.

Anyway. I never liked loud noises and if there has to be some, l'll take music instead.
 
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CalebJ

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Thanks for participating. Every now and then I hope you'll try to participate constructively rather than just hurl criticism at those trying to solve problems.

But apparently today won't be the day?
 

jderimig

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Reading the article linked, it says that the Waratah super battery is the first item to be funded under the $1B fund. It's not clear how much of that billion is committed to the battery project. Also, a billion Australian dollars is only around $670M US.

To answer your question, 100 MW of installed gas turbines cost $123M US (capital, not including O&M). The battery is rated at 850 MW, so an equivalent output would cost around $1B US. To me, the battery itself is a surprisingly inexpensive replacement for natural gas peaker plants.

You will need those peaker plants anyways because South Wales has > 2 cloudy days in a row where solar PV output will be at 10-25% nominal about 15.5 days a year statistically. So the battery capex is not in-place of the peaker plants, it will be in addition to. Or have frequent blackouts along with high energy costs.
 

boatgeek

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You will need those peaker plants anyways because South Wales has > 2 cloudy days in a row where solar PV output will be at 10-25% nominal about 15.5 days a year statistically. So the battery capex is not in-place of the peaker plants, it will be in addition to. Or have frequent blackouts along with high energy costs.
Your ancestors must have just been an absolute party in roughly 1905. "Those durn horseless carriages will never replace buggies. Why they're too expensive! And there's no place to buy fuel! They're only a toy for the rich! By gum these newfangled E-leck-trick lights will kill us all! Give me a good old gas lamp any day! And doggone it, the nightsoil collectors were good enough for my grandpappy, so they're good enough for me! Indoor plumbing is impossibly expensive and unsanitary to boot!"

I'm pretty sure that nobody has said that the entire NSW energy grid would be supplied by solar. There are other renewable technologies, some of which work in the dark or during storms. You might have heard of them.
 

dhbarr

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Yes and at $1billion each it would onyt cost $200Billion in capex to power Australia for a single day. I wonder what would nat gas turbines would cost to provide the same intermittent backup power?

With or without the sunk cost of a hundred years of pipeline right of way acquisition?
 

jderimig

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I'm pretty sure that nobody has said that the entire NSW energy grid would be supplied by solar. There are other renewable technologies, some of which work in the dark or during storms. You might have heard of them.
Ah playing the buggy whip card. Also what find interesting is that this comically expensive project which will consume resources and undoubtedly raise energy costs for Australians will have a negligible reduction in CO2 emissions, from a country who is the largest coal exporter in the world.

The Muhmorah coal plant used 3.8M tons per coal per year. Australia exports about 500M tons of coal per year. If the Australian government was serious about reducing CO2 emissions they would simply start shutting down their mines. CO2 emissions would suddenly drop and coal prices would skyrocket forcing the world to move to less emitting (more expensive) power generation. The CO2 reduction of this project is in the noise compared to the CO2 emissions Australia is enabling.

Perhaps the European protester who glue themselves to things should focus on the politicians down-under?
 

boatgeek

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Ah playing the buggy whip card. Also what find interesting is that this comically expensive project which will consume resources and undoubtedly raise energy costs for Australians will have a negligible reduction in CO2 emissions, from a country who is the largest coal exporter in the world.

The Muhmorah coal plant used 3.8M tons per coal per year. Australia exports about 500M tons of coal per year. If the Australian government was serious about reducing CO2 emissions they would simply start shutting down their mines. CO2 emissions would suddenly drop and coal prices would skyrocket forcing the world to move to less emitting (more expensive) power generation. The CO2 reduction of this project is in the noise compared to the CO2 emissions Australia is enabling.

Perhaps the European protester who glue themselves to things should focus on the politicians down-under?
Obviously, you know the entire system backwards and forwards. Therefore, please enlighten us as to:
Current fuel mix and O&M cost of the NSW power grid
Planned future fuel mix and O&M cost of the NSW power grid, including the battery plant
Capital cost of the planned upgrades
Expected system reliability after the planned upgrades
Net present value and annualized total cost of the upgrades, at an appropriate discount rate
If you don't know all of those things, then you have no business whatsoever making a judgement about whether the projects are comically expensive.

I think you're actually missing my point above. In 1905, ICE cars were comically expensive, dangerous, and unreliable compared to animal-drawn vehicles. After a generation of technology improvements, that changed completely. And you'll note that I never mentioned buggy whips or who would make them.
 

Funkworks

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"Oh look, a thead about X. Let's point out how not enough X is not enough X."

🤔:rolleyes::dontknow:

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Here's that Robert Llewellyn guy in an earlier incarnation:



Another basics video:



And in case someone missed this headline:

 

Funkworks

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Livestream of Pepsi's Semi delivery this evening:



Nice "... three years late" headline 😆. An automotive reporter that wasn't aware of COVID and issues in battery and chip supply chains? And implying the 3-year delay was due to the manufacturer? 😆. Seems like talkers and watcher just have to find some kind of negative against doers, even at the risk of sounding uninformed. Maybe they're indegenous so I'd rather go easy on them.

off-bug-spray-scj611081-64_1000.jpg
 

boatgeek

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Nice "... three years late" headline 😆. An automotive reporter that wasn't aware of COVID and issues in battery and chip supply chains? And implying the 3-year delay was due to the manufacturer? 😆. Seems like talkers and watcher just have to find some kind of negative against doers, even at the risk of sounding uninformed. Maybe they're indegenous so I'd rather go easy on them.
I'm sure that the reporter is keenly aware of COVID and chip shortages. I think that the "three years late" thing is really just the difference in culture between the automotive industry and the aerospace industry. It's totally reasonable for aerospace projects to be 3 years late, so that usually ends up way down in the article. It's a lot less common for automotive projects* to be that late for the first unit, regardless of causes. My impression is that most automotive manufacturers deal with time crunches by still releasing the first unit on time or close to it, but having very limited availability until the supply chain resolves itself. Given that, it's not too surprising that an automotive reporter would be a little saltier about the first unit being late.

Also, consider the scale of total numbers of units:
Really successful car/consumer truck: 5M+ units made (700K+ F150s are made per year)
Flop of a car: 50-100K units made (118K Edsels came off the line)
Really successful commercial aircraft: 5-10K+ units made
Really successful orbital rocket: 100+ units made

And just so my industry isn't left out:
Really successful US-built commercial boat design: 10+ units made (US-based boat owners really like custom stuff, so they don't tend to buy designs off the shelf)

* Other than self-driving cars, but that's another thread entirely.
 

jderimig

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Possibly. I have very little sympathy for naysayers and those who sound like or remind me of naysayers.
I am not against renewable energy. Actually I am a big fan because it will extend the life of remaining essential fossil fuels hopefully long enough that we start deploying nuclear plants before we run out.

The only thing I am saying "Nay" on is the belief that a 99.99 reliable electrical grid (current requirement and performance) is achievable with a 100% wind and solar energy source at any economical scale to keep civilization going and keep governments stable. Current data and real life material constraints support that. The only arguments I see that counter this are hypothetical wishes and hand waving of future unspecified technological breakthroughs.
 

jderimig

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Thanks for participating. Every now and then I hope you'll try to participate constructively rather than just hurl criticism at those trying to solve problems.

But apparently today won't be the day?
I am not hurling criticism, just presenting a realistic counterpoint calcs and facts that just demonstrate how difficult this endeavor will be to succeed.

Every now and then I hope you will present your counterpoint with facts and data (not hopes and dreams) instead of ad-hominem attacks against those who you disagree.
 

boatgeek

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I am not hurling criticism, just presenting a realistic counterpoint calcs and facts that just demonstrate how difficult this endeavor will be to succeed.

Every now and then I hope you will present your counterpoint with facts and data (not hopes and dreams) instead of ad-hominem attacks against those who you disagree.
The really frustrating thing is that whenever anyone presents facts and data to you, you either blow them off with a "far too expensive, can't ever work, and renewables suck" response or you just go silent and apparently pretend it never happened. Every. Single. Time. So it's not surprising that people go to the ad hominem. You've shown that there's no point in trying reason except for pleasing one's better angels.

If you disagree with the above, please feel free to find positive responses to any new technology you've made anywhere in the last 59 pages of this thread.
 

Funkworks

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Adding to this:
(Oh I watched it live yesterday!)

500 miles range fully loaded.
At 65 mph, that’s a 7.5 hour drive.
At that point, the driver can take a 30-60 minute break for lunch, washroom, and a charge.
Then drive for another 7.5 hours.
That’s a 15 hour day. In the fastest ever road machine this size.



Europe already has semis on the road, but this is the one with the hype. Mercedes-Benz and Bill Gates didn’t think these specs were possible. Even though I’ll probably never drive one, this might be my favorite EV story of the year.
 

Greg Furtman

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While watching a YouTube video about the history of electricity both in the States & abroad Schenectady NY was mentioned as it was the headquarters of GE. So being a Google Map nut I virtually went there. I saw a museum of technology on the map so I went there & looked at the photos. I ran across this.
1978 General Electric Centennial Electric_01.jpg

Here's some more info on the GE-100 Centennial.

 

Greg Furtman

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Here's an interesting article about the need to start planning now the charging network for EVs. The chargers are not the biggest obstacle, the transmission lines are.

In the Solar thread I posted about a HVDC line being built in NY to transport power from Quebec to NYC. (I didn't even know that HVDC transmission lines existed.) Since these big charging stations are HVDC then building HVDC transmission lines to power them make a lot of sense. Note that if you link on the link below a diagram you can download the White Paper.

 

jderimig

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Here's an interesting article about the need to start planning now the charging network for EVs. The chargers are not the biggest obstacle, the transmission lines are.

In the Solar thread I posted about a HVDC line being built in NY to transport power from Quebec to NYC. (I didn't even know that HVDC transmission lines existed.) Since these big charging stations are HVDC then building HVDC transmission lines to power them make a lot of sense. Note that if you link on the link below a diagram you can download the White Paper.

HVDC transmission lines have a lot of advantages for long distance transmission. Namely you do not need lossy capacitors in the chain to prevent ground potential differences over long distances from frying the transformers. At the terminus of the line is it converted to old fashion MV AC so there would be no EV charger benefit.
 

Funkworks

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"The Champlain Hudson Power Express (CHPE), a high-voltage direct current (HVDC) line, will deliver 1,250 megawatts of clean electricity from Canada’s Hydro-Québec, the fourth-largest hydropower producer in the world, to New York City.

HVDC energy transmission transmits power over long distances more efficiently than alternating current (AC) transmission.

The CHPE, which is permitted and expected to be fully operational in spring 2026, will be completely buried. It will transmit electricity for more than 372 miles (600 km).

It will run from the Hertel substation in La Prairie, Canada, to an interconnection point in the Richelieu River. It will then run through Lake Champlain and the Hudson River to an HVDC converter station in Astoria, Queens, where it will be connected into the Con Edison grid."

 

Funkworks

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Interesting article. And if anyone is suddenly interested in how elements of the periodic table are produced, refined, traded and used, I'll happily start a new thread for each one. Fascinating stuff.

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Hey I just got me a Tesla cable to J1772 plug adapter:
Complete-rework-500x500.jpg

Not cheap, but it's the holidays, and I can now charge my Hyundai at a Tesla "Destination charger" (240V Level 2). It opens up a whole new network.

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Formula E heading to Portland on 2023-June-24:

 
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BEC

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Hey I just got me one of these:
View attachment 549788

Not cheap, but it's the holidays, and I can now charge my Hyundai at a Tesla "Destination charger" (240V Level 2). It opens up a whole new network.
That's interesting. As you say, not cheap, but does open up more choices for Level 1 and 2 charging for non-Teslas.

I cringe to think of what an adapter that could let one charge a CHaDeMO car at a Tesla Supercharger would cost (or one that worked for CCS combo, for that matter) if such a thing exists.

Even having access to the Tesla network is probably not enough incentive for me to go road tripping with our 2016 Soul EV, even though it has its new battery now and should be able to pretty easily 100 miles on a charge come summer. I sure am glad to have it back. It was a bummer having to buy gas once a week or more when the Soul was between becoming pretty much unusable and the new battery arriving and getting installed.

You can bet I'll be taking a little better care of this battery than I did the first one, even though the replacement was free under warranty. No more charging to 100% every night....
 
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